Lee Collet Die Problem

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Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by Stix » 11 Oct 2019, 11:15 pm

So...

I finally got around to getting my 22-250 collet die all sorted & happening...

But...couldnt pull it apart... :unknown:

Ended up having to punch the insert out... :crazy:

Turns out, the insert is so dam tight it wont go back in either--well, not without a good bit of persuasion with a hammer & punch of some sort... :wtf:

Is this normal...?

All clips on the choob show the internals just fall out...but the one ive got is too bloody tight to get in & out without extreme force...FFS...!!! :unknown: :evil:

Anyone have any ideas... :unknown:

Guess im not shooting tomorrow ffs...!!!

Why the fuk is everything i buy these days a fukn peice of sh1t... :evil: :evil: :evil:
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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by Cooper » 12 Oct 2019, 8:06 am

The first thing I'd try is the insert out of another Lee Collet die (if you have one?) that way it should be pretty easy to see if it is a problem with the inset or the body of the die. But yeah they should pretty much just fall out when you unscrew to cap.
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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by Stix » 12 Oct 2019, 9:35 am

Thanks Cooper...
I dont have another on hand...

Once its in there, it seems to be able to move but getting it past the thread is proving a right PITA...!!...

So ill leave it in there for now...
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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by Apollo » 12 Oct 2019, 10:43 am

Was the Die new or secondhand..??

Have you or anyone else put the die in a vice or similar to grip the Die in an attempt to undo a tight top cap.. ??

Is the cap easy to undo and tighten..?? Is the top perfectly round.. ??

The Insert and Collet should just fall out the top past the thread.
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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by marksman » 12 Oct 2019, 11:01 am

Apollo wrote:Was the Die new or secondhand..??

Have you or anyone else put the die in a vice or similar to grip the Die in an attempt to undo a tight top cap.. ??

Is the cap easy to undo and tighten..?? Is the top perfectly round.. ??

The Insert and Collet should just fall out the top past the thread.



+1 :thumbsup:
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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by bladeracer » 12 Oct 2019, 11:33 am

Apollo wrote:Was the Die new or secondhand..??

Have you or anyone else put the die in a vice or similar to grip the Die in an attempt to undo a tight top cap.. ??

Is the cap easy to undo and tighten..?? Is the top perfectly round.. ??

The Insert and Collet should just fall out the top past the thread.


Good point, I've seen a similar problem with motorcycle fork legs that have been locked in a vice to loosen the fork caps.
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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by Stix » 12 Oct 2019, 1:52 pm

Ok...it was new...

Ive sized one batch with it, using Lee's instructions...which are clearly wrong--or so badly written they give a totally wrong interpretation for correct use.

Hasnt been bent out of round in a vice...
Body is visually round...
Cap is easy to thread in or out...which confirms body is round...

I wonder if its made of a different material-possibly softer...(the insert)

I also wonder if excessive pressure on the press has compressed the insert causing the bottom section to flare out radially, making it a squillion'th larger diameter than the inside of the thread... :unknown:

Unfortunately its too big for the chuck in a drill, & i dont have a lathe--or i could 'sand' down this section with some wet-n-dry...

The bloody collet is surface rusted too... :unknown: ...bloody hell...

This is the section that is too large & binds on the thread...
2019-10-12 12.53.47.jpg
2019-10-12 12.53.47.jpg (136.6 KiB) Viewed 4735 times


Its in the die & appears to be working for now...but ill have to get it sorted so i can lube the bits...
Last edited by Stix on 12 Oct 2019, 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 12 Oct 2019, 1:56 pm

Apply some lube on it mate the collet fingers can jam with the slieve... and damage cases

When new one of my dies was like you describe very tight to get on and out... eventually wore in good and lube helps
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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by sungazer » 12 Oct 2019, 7:19 pm

Which bit is sticking the top outer part or the mandrel down the centre in that top outer part. I have on one or two occasions just given the bottom part that does the squeezing a very light wet and dry on the inside of the hole and down the slits. Using like 1000 wet and dry.

Be careful if you do any polishing of the mandrel very easy to take off a few thou which will result in too much sizing and neck tension.
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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by Stix » 12 Oct 2019, 7:58 pm

sungazer wrote:Which bit is sticking the top outer part or the mandrel down the centre in that top outer part. I have on one or two occasions just given the bottom part that does the squeezing a very light wet and dry on the inside of the hole and down the slits. Using like 1000 wet and dry.

Be careful if you do any polishing of the mandrel very easy to take off a few thou which will result in too much sizing and neck tension.

The outside of the insert..as ive pictured and (badly) circled, is too wide to come out past the thread for the cap...

The mandrel slides in & out easily...

The insert has play while inside the body--its just getting it out that is the problem...

Ive punched it in & out twice now, & appear to have done no damage to the thread as the cap still screws in & out quite easily with no notable binding...

Ill have to punch it out again & lube the collet though...

Thanks for the warning on the mandrel sungazer- :) :thumbsup: -ive never done that before & wondered how quick & easy it is to remove too much.

For now, ive no choice but to use it as is...but ill order another mandrel & when i get it, ill polish this one with some lapping compound or autosol/JB abrasive...
:drinks:

Edit---its only the area circled, up to the slight 'indent' on the sleeve, that is binding on the thread...the upper section of it--where it increases in diameter again, slips past the thread without binding---so if i put it in upside down, it goes in fine until that lower section reaches the thread...
(Ive tried to explain that as best i can...)
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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by sungazer » 12 Oct 2019, 8:46 pm

Sounds like you've got a bit of a strange one. All mine drop in and out without any problems. Only issue I have had and it was more to be picky was to give the fingers a little polish. Sounds like yours is still operational and not going to cause loading problems. You do want that mandrel to have a little play so it is all making concentric ammo.
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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by in2anity » 13 Oct 2019, 9:45 am

sungazer wrote:Sounds like you've got a bit of a strange one. All mine drop in and out without any problems. Only issue I have had and it was more to be picky was to give the fingers a little polish. Sounds like yours is still operational and not going to cause loading problems. You do want that mandrel to have a little play so it is all making concentric ammo.

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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by Stix » 13 Oct 2019, 11:08 am

in2anity wrote:
sungazer wrote:Sounds like you've got a bit of a strange one. All mine drop in and out without any problems. Only issue I have had and it was more to be picky was to give the fingers a little polish. Sounds like yours is still operational and not going to cause loading problems. You do want that mandrel to have a little play so it is all making concentric ammo.

+1

Yes the mandrel & insert both have a little play independant of each other...

Cant find the bloomin receipt...dam...
Ill ask the store if i can get a replacement die cos its obviously not right...& they will remember me getting it so will hopefully find copy of sale on their POS system...
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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by Stix » 18 Oct 2019, 7:25 pm

Hey guys...just a quickie...gotta load some tonight--well now...

How do you go about ideal neck tension using a lee collet, but not neck turning...

Ive tested a couple of cases--one where i can just push the bullet in by hand---& another the die was only an eighth (1/8) turn down from that one in the press, which is not possible to push bullet in by hand...

Anyone have any idea what one eighth turn might equate to in terms of 0.000" in neck tension...?...is that too much--as in only add 1/16th turn...?

Ya'all get me & my silly question......?
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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by Stix » 18 Oct 2019, 8:21 pm

Ok...yes i get that the neck tension is largely governed by the diameter of the mandrel...

But setting the die up & giving it that extra 1/8th turn increases the tension...so im asking how others have it set--at around that mark or with more tension...?

Figured its worth asking anyway...as silly a question as it may seeem....
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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 19 Oct 2019, 8:56 am

I am surprised no one has answered yet mate... maybe weekend.

I follow the instructions and it works fine.
http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?498 ... Adjustment
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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by sungazer » 19 Oct 2019, 6:32 pm

Stix it doesn't matter how much you screw the die in. The mandrel is the determining factor of neck tension. Apart from the elasticity of the brass. A well annealed piece of brass will not spring back it will resize nicely. After each use the brass will not size as much resulting in less neck tension.
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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by Stix » 19 Oct 2019, 7:30 pm

Thanks guys...

Sungazer---i obviously cant get it in my head how this die works then...

What ive said, relates directly to this line...
Once the die is near the correct sizing position it takes very little movement of the die to achieve changes in neck seating tension ....whicj ive copied & pasted directly out of the link Ziad has posted...
This is the 27th line down, with this line being number 1..."Using The Lee Collet Die."

These are the instructions ive used to set up the die...

Ive found the point at which the die starts to size the neck/make changes to the neck...ive screwed the die in 1/16th a turn from the point ive said above, & seems to give just enough tension to stop me pushing a bullet in at all by hand...

So while i get that the mandrel is what determines neck tension, why do the instructions posted above state that minute changes in die depth (in press) will change neck tension, & why do i get this same result... :unknown:

Im obviously not getting something here... :unknown:
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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 19 Oct 2019, 7:45 pm

This is my understanding... could be wrong... probably am wrong.

So neck tension achieved is mainly through the mandrel (and how thick the brass is) but small change to the tension can be made by how much the die is screwed in. But it is very fine window of adjustment for that part.
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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by Stix » 19 Oct 2019, 8:20 pm

Ziad wrote:This is my understanding... could be wrong... probably am wrong.

So neck tension achieved is mainly through the mandrel (and how thick the brass is) but small change to the tension can be made by how much the die is screwed in. But it is very fine window of adjustment for that part.


And that part is the part im at--& yes it is VERY fine...!!
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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by in2anity » 19 Oct 2019, 8:38 pm

Just screw it to the shell holder, then add more until the collet takes up, plus a fraction more overcam. I don’t squish the rubber washer much - just firm. That’s my starting point anyway. Then you gotta polish the mandrel to get to your desired neck tension. You can do it in a drill, but a press makes it a little easier. Alternatively you can just buy undersized mandrels from the bay - I picked up a -0.002 undersized 308 mandrel from there, and it’s perfect for my taste.
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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by sungazer » 19 Oct 2019, 9:03 pm

If you were to not push down on the press arm to close the jaws of the collet tight on the case against the mandrel to size the case consistently. This is the way it should be done.

However if you were to not move the press arm enough to close the jaws on the brass to actually come into a consistent pressure on the mandrel or perhaps not even touch the mandrel. Well this would give you less tech tension but the round to round consistency I think would be very bad.

Only way to increase NT is polish the mandrel.
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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by marksman » 20 Oct 2019, 9:59 am

the way I set up the collet dies is to only tighten the die down enough so that you cant pull the bullet when seated with your fingers
so start with a case being sized with the collet skirt only just touching the shell holder and adjust the die in till it grips the bullet and you cant move it with your fingers, I believe this is light neck tension, works for me :drinks:
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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by Stix » 20 Oct 2019, 3:06 pm

Thanks guys... :drinks:

marksman wrote:the way I set up the collet dies is to only tighten the die down enough so that you cant pull the bullet when seated with your fingers
so start with a case being sized with the collet skirt only just touching the shell holder and adjust the die in till it grips the bullet and you cant move it with your fingers, I believe this is light neck tension, works for me :drinks:

Marksman--does this go for pushing one in by hand as well as pulling one out....?...(I can set the die such that there is enough to push one in, but not pull one out, or turned a fraction more into the press & cant either push or pull one in or out)...

-------------------

I shot some yesterday that i sized such that i just couldn't push or pull the bullet in or out by hand...

Interestingly, they shot ok, but not as good as loaded with wobble die... im guessing they have less tension than when sized with my wobble die, because they appear to like more powder...i only loaded .6 of a grain above the proven load but the groups look as if they are just starting to come together & could take more powder...(they might take up to a full grain more powder than the proven load)...
(the proven load shoots .25"...these shot .42" to .55"...)...

So a curiosity question....which direction would you guys take now...___...
Either further testing with powder charge until the groups come together,...?
Or...
Muck around with the mandrel to match the neck tension given by the wobble die...?

I hope you get what i mean... :)
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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by in2anity » 20 Oct 2019, 6:11 pm

marksman wrote:the way I set up the collet dies is to only tighten the die down enough so that you cant pull the bullet when seated with your fingers


Stix wrote:I shot some yesterday that i sized such that i just couldn't push or pull the bullet in or out by hand...


I'll be honest, I've not head of reloaders deliberately targeting very negligible NT. The way I understood things (and perhaps I've been living under a rock :wtf: ); the tighter the NT, the more consistent your ignition will basically be (and potentially lower your SD). This is especially true for faster powders,where crimping can sometimes also help. Very tight necks does come at the cost of overworking your brass however - that's the catch - case life can be shortened. So you aim for the middle ground; as tight as you can afford to turnover your brass...

There's also the risk of set-back when you chamber your round if your NTs are very mild - I've had that happen, and it can really mess with your line of investigation...

Now if your jump-to-the lands is really small, your ignition will aided by this natural resistance. And some cartridges/guns are just inherently accurate, so you can afford to "lose a little" with so-so NT (but with a small jump to the lands).

Dunno, I could be completely off here boys - I'm basing this stuff on hearsay and personal experience... correct me if I'm wrong almighty gurus. :drinks:

Stix getting back to your question of "powder vs NT angle" - personally, at this stage I'd be focusing more on NT and less on powder choice. In my experience NT is a far bigger contributor to accuracy than powder choice. That and bullet choice. Many guns will shoot a variety of powders pretty much equally as well, so long as your NTs are tight and consistent, and the barrel favors a particular bullet. :drinks:
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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by cirles » 20 Oct 2019, 6:46 pm

Currently looking at this die as an alternative to a bushing die.

In answer to ‘Stix’ question of how do you know if you have the right neck tension, would you not measure the OD (outside diameter) of the case neck after it was pressed?

Bullet Diameter + Case Neck thickness (x2 [sides] = X, minus Tension Number desired (say 0.002). [& try pressing a bullet into the neck mouth just to confirm you have at least reached tension].

But the above would only be viable if the neck walls (neck thickness) remains the same. So does the Lee Collet die squeeze/thin out neck walls (do they grow in length? - have heard they even out neck thickness irregularities, so a potential alternative to ‘neck turning’ case necks).

Not trying to hijack the thread here guys, genuinely trying to get an answer for this neck tension issue with this die (hopefully something that can have a measurement attached, so repeatable reference point – if possible).
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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by marksman » 20 Oct 2019, 7:04 pm

Marksman--does this go for pushing one in by hand as well as pulling one out....?...(I can set the die such that there is enough to push one in, but not pull one out, or turned a fraction more into the press & cant either push or pull one in or out)...

yes this does go for pushing one in by hand as well as pulling one out
this is usually done before I start testing loads and what I am trying to do is make everything exactly the same so I have a scribe mark on the die and press so it is repeatable the next time, this is a part of my setting things up so it can be repeatable and consistent from the get go, being micro (anal or ocd) :lol:
TBH l usually find that when a good load is found anything I try after detunes the load, your proven load needs less powder because having more neck tension gives higher pressure, as l have stated plenty of times I like a smooth entry and release when reloading for precision so l always try for less neck tension even if l am using a light crimp to get a more even start pressure because I am jumping the bullet

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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by marksman » 20 Oct 2019, 7:13 pm

So does the Lee Collet die squeeze/thin out neck walls (do they grow in length? - have heard they even out neck thickness irregularities, so a potential alternative to ‘neck turning’ case necks).

I have found these dies do thin out the edge of the neck and cause irregularities where the collet squeezes the neck
l dont see it a problem as the edge of the neck being thinner is IMHO beneficial for seating a bullet straight and the marks left from the collet are uniformly in 4 places around the neck and are more cosmetic than anything
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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by Stix » 20 Oct 2019, 7:28 pm

Thanks Marksman.. :drinks:

So another question for you collet die users...

Is it worth trying to crimp theese bullets/204 cases to get that pressure back to the other loads... :unknown: ...or just re-adjust the charge for this setting...?
(I should first check if this seater die it came with can crimp i spose... :? )



Thanks Ciries--measuring these cases like that doesnt work for the fine tolerances im at with brass not turned for some reason..well no discernable difference anyway...ill try it again tho...

And ask away... :thumbsup: ...on the same subject is not a hijack--you might ask a question that gets answered & helps many out... :thumbsup: ...like silly ol' me... :)
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Re: Lee Collet Die Problem

Post by Apollo » 20 Oct 2019, 7:35 pm

marksman wrote:the way I set up the collet dies is to only tighten the die down enough so that you cant pull the bullet when seated with your fingers
so start with a case being sized with the collet skirt only just touching the shell holder and adjust the die in till it grips the bullet and you cant move it with your fingers, I believe this is light neck tension, works for me :drinks:


So, what are you using these rounds for, target shooting.. ??

What happens when you push the loaded round against something like your reloading table, can you push the bullet into the case by hand..??

The reason I ask is that I have a target rifle (6.5x47 Lapua) which is very accurate but it's also a very tight neck chamber, .286 compared to say a "No Turn" neck of .294/5 so with 0.010" neck walls it has very little grip on the bullet. So much so that if rounds are loaded long the simple task of closing the bolt pushes the bullet back into the case so the bullet cannot be jammed into the bore. That's where it's most accurate rather than any jump to the lands. The problem I found is that in transport, rounds sitting up in cartridge boxes they can vibrate enough to cause the bullets to be shorter than ideal. Solution I used was to seat everything long and final seating before a competition shoot.

I would never load rounds for hunting/varminting like this as in my view they will change over time being transported so you will end up with rounds where the bullet seating varies. Now, using bushing dies I can increase the neck tension quite a bit but I loose accuracy. It's still not a lot of tension given the neck walls are so thin.
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