Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 06 Nov 2019, 9:19 pm

JimTom wrote:G’day mate.

My LA101 has poor accuracy. I have tried more types of ammo through it than I care to remember. Can’t find anything that will shoot. I even went and purchased new rings and Leupold scope as I thought it was the issue.
To their credit Lithgow said send it back and they will see what is wrong with it.
It took a week to get from the dealer to Lithgow, and they have now had it for three weeks come Monday.
Kind of hoping to hear something this week.


Very disappointed to read that JimTom.
You must be ready to ditch it and start with something else.
Three weeks is really starting to push the friendship
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by JimTom » 07 Nov 2019, 6:21 am

I would like to think it will be resolved in the near future mate, will be starting to fray around the edges if it drags out for to many more weeks. As I said previously though, if I email them I get a very prompt reply so can’t fault them for that.
They have suggested they were going to recrown it and see if that works. That was over a week ago so I would expect to hear something by tomorrow arvo. If accuracy doesn’t improve, they can have it. No point owning a .22 if it isn’t even capable of hitting a rabbit at 50m.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 07 Nov 2019, 5:40 pm

Well...
I was going to wait until after I shoot it next Saturday before choosing what to do next, but last night I decided to contact Lithgow Arms through their support/warrant claim contact page and describe the issue I'd had.
I was pleased to receive a detailed reply first thing this morning from one of the engineers who worked on the development of the LA101.
It was suggested that if the issue was a light strike, that I would have experienced more failures than I did over the 70 shots.
He had looked at the photographs I sent and considered the firing pin protrusion to be correct. I had indicated in my inquiry that I considered the bolt face machine marks to be a bit ordinary - he had made no comment on that..
It was suggested that the most likely cause was that of the bolt not being in the fully down position.
This is something that I had not given consideration to and most definitely something I will experiment with when I am at the range next. I can only presume I had the bolt fully down - but...
If I can lift the bolt slightly and make it misfire consistently - then that will most likely be the cause. An experiment for Saturday.
Trying a different ammo type was also suggested.

So, I'll give Lithgow Arms two thumbs up for their quick response and a well written reply to my query from someone with intimate knowledge of the firearm in question.
I'm so used to getting ordinary customer service these days, that this was a very pleasant surprise. :thumbsup:
Lets hope his advice is correct, I'm quite happy to eat humble pie if I was the cause :silent:
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by straightshooter » 08 Nov 2019, 6:53 am

The explanation given you by Lithgow may be feasible. It would somewhat depend on how much 'cam forward' is in the design and how far rifling engraves onto the projectile and to what extent that impedes the rim attaining zero headspace and thus not cushioning the firing pin blow.
It is more likely to be multiple 'on the limit of tolerance' issues combining to create the problem.
If you have aspirations of being a high quality manufacturer of anything then all 'quality control' must be performed before your product leaves your production facility and not leave it to the end user to perform the final 'quality acceptance'.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by PaddyT » 08 Nov 2019, 4:31 pm

Hopefully it gets sorted ASAP, Im still delighted with mine and the LA102 in 308 ive just recently bought. I will add though that whilst CCI std shoots ok from mine it does misfed a bit here and there compared to Velocitor or SK match. Ive prettty much settled on those as my main ammo.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by TassieTiger » 08 Nov 2019, 5:51 pm

I Didn’t realise the price they is associated with these LA101’s...I incorrectly thought they were a budget rifle but far from it.
Not great reports above...even occasional misfeeds would drive me nuts. Reliability on the next level firearms should be 2nd to nothing...imagine having a rabbit lined up and wondering IF it was going to work / feed next round / be accurate...
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 08 Nov 2019, 6:02 pm

PaddyT wrote:Hopefully it gets sorted ASAP, Im still delighted with mine and the LA102 in 308 ive just recently bought. I will add though that whilst CCI std shoots ok from mine it does misfed a bit here and there compared to Velocitor or SK match. Ive prettty much settled on those as my main ammo.


Thanks Paddy,
I'm appreciative of all the advise I can get from those 'in the know'
I'm going to run the remainder of the CCI's through it, then - all going well I'll switch to the SK
I've had one (CCI std) misfeed, - I've noticed when loading the mag, the last (5th) round to go in is *very* tight in the mag and I think it was that round that didn't feed right.
I reckon I need to get more used to the feel of the action as well. I probably felt a bit of extra resistance on the bolt and instead of pushing/cycling the bolt through like normal, maybe I hesitated during that cycle.. I dunno. :?
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 08 Nov 2019, 6:14 pm

TassieTiger wrote:I Didn’t realise the price they is associated with these LA101’s...I incorrectly thought they were a budget rifle but far from it.
Not great reports above...even occasional misfeeds would drive me nuts. Reliability on the next level firearms should be 2nd to nothing...imagine having a rabbit lined up and wondering IF it was going to work / feed next round / be accurate...


Hi Tassie,
Jury is still deliberating here... having said that, there are loads of happy customers out there that are shooting tight groups with these things and as described by the guy from Lithgow Arms, it might have been me and the bolt position. This all happened during the first time I shot with it, so it's feasible a degree of it might have been me getting used to it's feel etc.... :unknown:
Anyway, back at the range in the morning with a heap of ammo, so I'll report back after that.
Getting back into it...

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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by southeast varmiter » 08 Nov 2019, 6:16 pm

Ruger precision rimfire. Solve the issue.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by BennieDaBlade » 08 Nov 2019, 9:30 pm

Just to add an owners 2 cents. I bought mine early, bit of a delay as there was a rush. I have about 2000 rounds so far with no fail to fire or fail to feed. various ammo from competition Eley to dregs.

Oh, wait, I forgot, I had two fail to feeds and I asked Lithgow and they sent me a new mag free of charge.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by Bugman » 09 Nov 2019, 1:54 pm

Never had a problem with my LA101. Used all sorts of ammo. Hope it works out ok for you.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by PaddyT » 09 Nov 2019, 2:00 pm

I will clarify what i said earlier- the misfeeds where restricted to my two aftermarket mags and once i did the spring modification the problem essentailly went away, however the CCI Std seemed to do it the most- it now feeds fine,
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 10 Nov 2019, 7:50 am

So, all was going well at the range on Saturday, after 20 or 30 shots of the CCI std (the previous culprits) I'd had no more misfires.
I experimented with the bolt position as an engineer from Lithgow Arms had advised that if it wasn't fully down, this would cause a misfire.
Testing it slightly up (about 2 to 3mm) - shot fired ok
Slightly more out of battery (approx 5 to 6mm bolt up) and (not surprisingly) it misfired.
I only tried this on a couple of shots as it's a totally controllable variable and for the entire shoot (and I shot about 170 rounds that morning) I was very conscious to ensure the bolt was closed fully before each shot.

Since things were going ok, I decided to shoot the match that the others on the range were competing in and I switched to some SK match ammo for that.
About 8 or 9 shots in and the usual bang was replaced by the dreaded 'click' :wtf:
Bugger. Problem persists...
Even though it was only one misfire, this confirms in my mind that I still have an issue and that it misfired on a different brand of ammo.
There was another club member present with a 101, so I went and asked if he'd ever had any misfires. He said he's had one or two in the year he's had his, but attributed it to dud ammo. I looked at some of his spent cases and the fp indent looked similar but very slightly harder hit than mine.
I'm now thinking it's a headspace thing, but I'll be emailing Lithgow Arms again about it for their opinion and I'll have a chat to my dealer also to get his take on where to go from here.
Scored 427/500 in the comp with loads of fliers, it seems to group 2 or 3 then it'll throw 2 fliers. Underlying issue might be related to it's accuracy.

hmm...
Will keep y'all posted
Getting back into it...

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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by JimTom » 10 Nov 2019, 7:58 am

Thanks for the update mate. Following this post closely. Very interested in the outcome. My rifle has apparently had the “crown adjusted and is shooting well”. I guess we will see when I get it back and try it out at the range next week.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by TassieTiger » 10 Nov 2019, 8:47 am

Thanks for update - sorry to hear it wasn’t bolt closure.
Might be slightly off topic - but JT, how much affect do you think the crown has on accuracy? Reason I ask is because of a you tube clip where ppl cut barrels with quick cuts, no crowning at all and testing showed similar accuracy after / before crowning.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by JimTom » 10 Nov 2019, 9:10 am

Mate I would suggest it does play a part however to what extent I don’t know mate. I don’t know enough about it.
I just did a search and read that article where old mate cut his barrel off with a reciprocating saw and it didn’t have as much of an effect as I would have thought. Interesting.
I would be very surprised if doing a job on the crown of my rifle has healed the issue my rifle had after reading that article. Time will tell.
Rest assured that if they have sent it back and it still shoots like rubbish it will be the last Lithgow rifle I ever touch. Will give them the benefit of the doubt before I pass final judgment though.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by allan » 10 Nov 2019, 9:12 am

TassieTiger wrote:Might be slightly off topic - but JT, how much affect do you think the crown has on accuracy? Reason I ask is because of a you tube clip where ppl cut barrels with quick cuts, no crowning at all and testing showed similar accuracy after / before crowning.


That may well apply to a "truck" gun carted around in the bush. However, once you start talking quality barrels, match chambers, bedding, headspace, ignition etc., a decent crown can make or break accuracy. I know one experienced smith in Qld. who has worked on a number of Lithgows (including one of mine). He routinely checks the crown for defects. I recently had my 2016 build LA101 bedded into a new stock - Had the crown re-cut while the rifle was in pieces - Done by Rolf Hey in Hobart.

Michael - I'm digesting your comments & pics from last night's email - Based on what you've done, I'm leaning towards a head space issue - Be in touch later to-day after I do a couple of measurements.

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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 10 Nov 2019, 9:37 am

TassieTiger wrote:Thanks for update - sorry to hear it wasn’t bolt closure.
Might be slightly off topic - but JT, how much affect do you think the crown has on accuracy? Reason I ask is because of a you tube clip where ppl cut barrels with quick cuts, no crowning at all and testing showed similar accuracy after / before crowning.


I watched that YouTube vid too, a week or so back and was rather intrigued by it.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 10 Nov 2019, 9:40 am

TassieTiger wrote:Thanks for update - sorry to hear it wasn’t bolt closure.
...


np, I doubt I'll have much news to report for a few days, but will keep the post updated.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 10 Nov 2019, 9:51 am

JimTom wrote:Thanks for the update mate. Following this post closely. Very interested in the outcome. My rifle has apparently had the “crown adjusted and is shooting well”. I guess we will see when I get it back and try it out at the range next week.


It's taken a month + to achieve that right?

JimTom wrote:...
I would be very surprised if doing a job on the crown of my rifle has healed the issue my rifle had after reading that article. Time will tell.
Rest assured that if they have sent it back and it still shoots like rubbish it will be the last Lithgow rifle I ever touch. Will give them the benefit of the doubt before I pass final judgment though.


In the same boat atm JT.
Trying to Keep an open mind and opinion.
I think these things have awesome potential if set up right, so if it takes a few stumbles and some tinkering - then overall, OK. But it should be a good performer out of the box.
The tinkering I'm fine with, the stumbles, not so much.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 10 Nov 2019, 10:02 am

allan wrote:...
Michael - I'm digesting your comments & pics from last night's email - Based on what you've done, I'm leaning towards a head space issue - Be in touch later to-day after I do a couple of measurements.
...


Thanks allan.
I'll be putting an email to LA together tonight with some selected photos to help him out. I'm not keen on sending it back if that's what they recommend, just based on the time-frame that JT's warranty work has taken, but we'll cross that bridge if or when we get to it.
Thanks again for your help and knowledge, much appreciated.
Getting back into it...

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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by JimTom » 12 Nov 2019, 4:03 pm

Picked up my Lithgow today, along with the target that they shot after completing the job on the crown.
Measured the group sizes and both under 0.5” at 50m. One group was 0.3”
Will see when I go to range later in the week.
They even chucked in a new magazine with the metal follower. I had the original plastic. Can’t complain about their service. First class if you ask me.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by PaddyT » 12 Nov 2019, 4:20 pm

Good news Jim, every business has problems-its how well they deal with them that counts, hopefully yours is going to shoot like a laser beam !!Let us know who it goes
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by JimTom » 12 Nov 2019, 6:37 pm

PaddyT wrote:Good news Jim, every business has problems-its how well they deal with them that counts, hopefully yours is going to shoot like a laser beam !!Let us know who it goes



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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 13 Nov 2019, 5:04 pm

Update.
Until now I hadn't included the dealer in what's been going on, I was wanting to (or 'hoping to') find a resolution to this myself.
Yesterday I had a chat to two other friends, both shooters and came away from it with a different attitude.
Last night I wrote an email to the dealer who I bought the LA101 from. I detailed what I'd been experiencing, what I'd tried, what I thought about the rough tooling marks on the gun and put forward what my expectation was (replacement 101 or credit and I'll get the CZ457 which was my second choice). I was totally expecting that I would be told it should get sent back for repair.
My dealer called me at 8.30 this morning, concerned at what I'd experienced and with no hesitation said bring it back and we'll get it swapped over.
So, for now... there ends the saga.
I'll include a few more images with this post, of other areas of the gun that concerned me. Some I've posted previously some will be new to you.
I'm not sure I had mentioned it in this thread, but from events, observations & measurements I had taken through this process, I also believe this gun has a major headspace issue.

I am really hoping that this unit is a one off poor example and that the others out there are not as poorly manufactured as this one.

*** In fact I'd be really interested if others could check their 101's and post up pics to see if this is the norm. ***
I certainly hope for Lithgow Arms sake, that it is not.

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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by allan » 13 Nov 2019, 6:31 pm

Michael - Based on the information & images we have exchanged since this saga commenced, I think you have arrived at the only possible outcome.
As I said previously, if the external machining exhibits those characteristics, it would be an interesting exercise to bore scope that barrel.
Based on my personal experience with these rifles plus having thoroughly inspected a couple of others, I would like to think that your example is just one of those quality control issues which appear in any mass produced product from time to time.
Hope it all works out to your satisfaction from here.
Of course, you could always exchange it for an Anschutz 1761 :D I can't help but make comparisons between mine. They are very similar in many respects and both shoot well too.
Good luck,
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 13 Nov 2019, 8:21 pm

allan wrote:Michael - Based on the information & images we have exchanged since this saga commenced, I think you have arrived at the only possible outcome.
As I said previously, if the external machining exhibits those characteristics, it would be an interesting exercise to bore scope that barrel.
...
Good luck,
Allan.


Allan,
After I had de-scoped it earlier, ready for it's walk of shame back to the dealer...
I took a lot more photographs and tried to do a bit more video for you to examine - not sure yet if that turned out well.
I'll sort through them a bit later... expect mail
I know we did discuss bore-scoping... well...

Here's another two images I captured tonight (with different lighting for each), which I won't even comment on... I'll leave that to the viewer...

Image

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Lithgow LA101 .22RF. Hawke Vantage 6-24x44SF


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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by Gamerancher » 14 Nov 2019, 7:02 am

Those marks inside the bore near the crown look like damage done by using a scope alignment tool that has a spigot that is placed inside the bore.
Is this the case with this rifle? Did you, or the shop you bought it from, mount the scope using one? I've seen a couple of rifle barrels ruined by them.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by allan » 14 Nov 2019, 1:52 pm

Gamerancher wrote:Those marks inside the bore near the crown look like damage done by using a scope alignment tool that has a spigot that is placed inside the bore.

Valid comment! I cringe at the thought of using that style of bore sighter. However, I do use Burris Signature rings on just about everything these days. I use a magnetic bore sighter. I print a chart for each scope I mount and establish a zero point on that chart using anything that will fit from my spares box. I then optically centre the scope adjustments and use the off set inserts to line the reticule up with that zero point. I find I can get a scope VERY close by doing that thus saving virtually all the scope's internal adjustments.
Sorry, off topic a bit there but the only way Michael's rifle would ever shoot to my standards would be to re-barrel it, strip the action & re-build it from scratch.
I've been impressed with the LA101 since I first saw the initial drawings and love mine & am frankly dismayed to see how this story has unfolded.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 14 Nov 2019, 5:17 pm

Gamerancher wrote:Those marks inside the bore near the crown look like damage done by using a scope alignment tool that has a spigot that is placed inside the bore.
Is this the case with this rifle? Did you, or the shop you bought it from, mount the scope using one? I've seen a couple of rifle barrels ruined by them.


I never have used one, but yes the dealer did mount the scope. He told me he'd bore sighted it.
Thank you for mentioning that as I wouldn't have thought of it.
I mentioned this damage to the dealer today, I was presuming it was factory damage.
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Lithgow LA101 .22RF. Hawke Vantage 6-24x44SF


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