Gun advice for a writer who doesn't own guns

[TwelveCheeseSticks]

Howdy folks.

I'll get straight to the point.

I am currently writing a fantasy novel about an Australian marksman who is quite suddenly transported to a fantasy environment (A dumb premise, i know)
At the start of the novel it is established he has a gun licence, and i was wondering what firearms would be best for going long times without maintenance or cleaning, and also for long range firing
I'm thinking of making his primary a Cat B lever action, but i'm not entirely sure whether a lever action would be appropriate for long-range shooting. What calibre would be best for long-distance shooting? And what would be best for going through medieval plate armour (which was usually about 2-3 millimetres thick)?
Specific firearm brands and names would be appreciated, i'm a stickler for details.
Thanks y'all

[bigrich]

Hey mate, as someone who reads a variety of books, including fantasy novels ( e.g, “lost regiment “ ) , I thought I would assist. Two lever guns that come to mind are the browning BLR and the Henry “long ranger” which are magazine fed from a removable mag rather then the tube mag which is common to marlin and Winchester lever guns. The magazine in the browning and Henry have the ability to use projectiles that are ballistically superior to the flat points normally used in tune magazines that run under the barrel of the earlier Winchester/ marlin design. The Henry comes in 243,308 which with a well constructed projectile would pierce medieval armour. Other less common magazine fed lever guns are the Winchester 88 , ( I would like one), and the sako “fin-wolf” . The Henry, browning, Winchester 88, ( don’t Confuse this with the earlier models) and the sako have the ability to be scope mounted to improve distance shooting. Also a savage 99 is another lever fed rifle that has these abilities and would appeal to American audiences. Hope this helps, and maybe stimulate some more replies

Cheers

[Norton]

Well, this is new

To argue the other side of the coin to Bigrich...

If you want to be technically accurate, a bolt-action rifle is going to be better suited for your story IMO.

Bolt actions are very simple, making them strong and reliable. Not that you'd ever advise such a thing in the real world, but if starting with a well maintained rifle you could realistically expect many years without problems (other than it getting a bit sticky).

Lever actions are mechanically more complex and jamming is more common. Partly due to the complexity, also often due to the operator not quite completing the lever throw and causing a jam.

How long "long range" is depending on your point of view. You mention he's a "marksman", but also that he "has his gun license" which sounds a lot more civilian to me.

If you're talking about a hunter/recreational shooter, real world "long range" is going to be something like 400-500 metres max with the type of rifle they're likely to have.

If you're talking about a trained marksman you could be talking about 1,000m - 1,500m but you'd be talking about a more purpose built precision rifle, and high quality optics for that. No Joe Blow goes into a gun shop and grabs a $900 off-the-shelf hunting rifle and starts hitting bulleyes at 1,500m, you know?

"What cartridge is best" is a conversation that's literally been discussed millions of times in the shooting community I'd keep it simple and say .308 Winchester, or .300 Win Mag. These are both popular, proven, highly capable cartridges. Go .300 Win Mag if you're story is going to be extreme range stuff.

Either of these would go through 10 layers of medieval plate without blinking. All but the very smallest centrefire cartridges would go through 1 layer without any trouble whatsoever.

About brands, realistically, there are a dozen brands that would fit the story. Remington, and maybe more so Ruger, are both known to be reliable. I think it's fair to say Remington leans more towards accuracy, where being rugged and near unbreakable is very much part of Rugers brand image.

Hope that helps.

[Sergeant Hartman]

Easiest is make the s**t up. No one really seems to care about accuracy. Or watch Jack Ryan or reacher movies. Plenty of ideas there

[bladeracer]

Howdy folks.

I'll get straight to the point.

I am currently writing a fantasy novel about an Australian marksman who is quite suddenly transported to a fantasy environment (A dumb premise, i know)
At the start of the novel it is established he has a gun licence, and i was wondering what firearms would be best for going long times without maintenance or cleaning, and also for long range firing
I'm thinking of making his primary a Cat B lever action, but i'm not entirely sure whether a lever action would be appropriate for long-range shooting. What calibre would be best for long-distance shooting? And what would be best for going through medieval plate armour (which was usually about 2-3 millimetres thick)?
Specific firearm brands and names would be appreciated, i'm a stickler for details.
Thanks y'all

I would very strongly recommend that whatever firearms you decide to write about that you go and actually spend some time handling and shooting them. I am continually annoyed by writers trying to sound authentic by describing the gun, then failing dismally by things like "He instinctively flicked off the safety as he drew his Glock from its holster and caressed the hair trigger with his finger.", (Glocks don't have safeties and have horrendously heavy triggers), or "His clip was almost out of bullets!". In virtually all cases, clips are used to quickly transfer cartridges into the magazine of a firearm - clips are not magazines. Bullets come out the muzzle, cartridges are loaded into the firearm.

And I suggest you fire the firearms without hearing protection at least once, the noise is often totally overlooked by novelists.

For reliability, accuracy and longevity I think you're limited to bolt-action rifles, but the chambering is a wide choice, virtually anything from .223Rem and up will penetrate 2-3mm steel out to hundreds of meters, and medieval armour was not particularly tough. The volume of the ammunition being carried might make it sensible to stick to the smaller cartridges, like .223 - you can carry two or three times more .223 in your pockets than you can .30-06.

Unless your protaganist happened to be carrying a great deal of ammo at the time he went back, you might need to learn about reloading cartridges using blackpowder, or if you're travelling to pre-gunpowder times, learn how to make it yourself - that'll really impress those maidens

[Wm.Traynor]

Handloaded ammo is quite often the norm for long range shooting. Barrels of long range rifles tend to be long, up to 30" or 76cm, for instance. This can make them cumbersome and they can be heavy, too, say 4 or 5 kg sometimes.
But, your rifle could have a Titanium action, a carbon fibre-wrapped barrel and a Kevlar stock
Good Luck mate

[Member-Deleted]

What about a combination rifle maybe.

Something like a .223 and 12guage

Then can shoot long range and blow those goblins away close range

Just a thought

[pomemax]

Now you know why star trek had Lasers .Lots of people understand guns not to many understand lasers

[bigrich]

Hey tcs, what range are you thinking when you say long distance ? As Norton and others have said , a bolt is better at long distance shooting, that’s not to say a skilled shooter with a accurate , scoped , spritzer firing lever gun couldn’t hit a breast plate at 300 yards . If the hero of your story is a civilian hunter of some discription , you need to give some more information on the settings of the situation to get some accurate information and advice. Real time at a rifle range would give you better insight as well

[bigrich]

What about a combination rifle maybe.

Something like a .223 and 12guage

Then can shoot long range and blow those goblins away close range

Just a thought

I reckon goblins wouldn’t like buckshot that much

[Blr243]

It’s great to see a writer research a topic first Experienced readers respect written material so much more when it actually makes sense Otherwise it’s just like movestar sensational dribble

[deye243]

I find this a bit suss ...... y'all fell for it

[bigrich]

It’s great to see a writer research a topic first Experienced readers respect written material so much more when it actually makes sense Otherwise it’s just like movestar sensational dribble

+1

[Sergeant Hartman]

I find this a bit suss ...... y'all fell for it

Is February 11 the new April 1st

[bladeracer]

I find this a bit suss ...... y'all fell for it

You mean we had an interesting conversation about it.

[Stix]

Hmmm...details...

Its all in the details...

Its easy to get caught up in the details...

Like my shirt seems to be jagged on what relevance him having a gun licence has before being transported to a fantasy environment...
Are you testing us, treading carefully, or do the fantasy land law makers & enforcers replicate the iodicy we have in real life...

Then i started tearing my shirt to look forward & i wondered who's fantasy it was...the shooters fantasy...or the fantasy of the ex-husband of his current missus...



But to make it simple...and assuming this Aussie shooter is from the modern day Australia...

The rifle is not a custom chambered rifle--they are too easily fouled by contaminants with the tight tolerances its built to.
If he's a "marksman"...& the rifle doesnt get cleaned very often, the rifle he has is likely able to hold moa with easily obtainable factory ammo...

Therefor its a European made tikka T3 chambered in 243 or 308...

Heavy barrel or sporter barrel...??
Well that depends if he be a young buff surfer dude rambo 'i rock' type...
or a not as agile as once was, middle-aged, incredibly handsome, wise man that everyone wants to be....you know...like me...






Hey...in this fantasy land...does this "marksman" hunt fat foxes that play leapfrog with short legged sheep...??

2020-02-11 16.35.01.png (56.08 KiB) Viewed 4394 times

[TwelveCheeseSticks]

Hey tcs, what range are you thinking when you say long distance ? As Norton and others have said , a bolt is better at long distance shooting, that’s not to say a skilled shooter with a accurate , scoped , spritzer firing lever gun couldn’t hit a breast plate at 300 yards . If the hero of your story is a civilian hunter of some discription , you need to give some more information on the settings of the situation to get some accurate information and advice. Real time at a rifle range would give you better insight as well

Thanks for the reply.

He'll be shooting anywhere between 10 metres to a little over a kilometre (He does this once to impress another character), But he's no military grade marine, He's a office worker who shoots hogs every few months.

He has a scope, but im not exactly sure the types of those. ANy recommendations for brands of those?

Cheers

[TwelveCheeseSticks]

What about a combination rifle maybe.

Something like a .223 and 12guage

Then can shoot long range and blow those goblins away close range

Just a thought

I was thinking of something like that, but the only ones i could find are double barreled and only two shots. Unless there's some bolt action type out there

[TwelveCheeseSticks]

I find this a bit suss ...... y'all fell for it

Ah drats, i've been found out.
It's true, I;m researching this so i can invade the Czech republic and claim it's many mountains for myself and a herd of rabid goats.

[TwelveCheeseSticks]

Well, this is new

To argue the other side of the coin to Bigrich...

If you want to be technically accurate, a bolt-action rifle is going to be better suited for your story IMO.

Bolt actions are very simple, making them strong and reliable. Not that you'd ever advise such a thing in the real world, but if starting with a well maintained rifle you could realistically expect many years without problems (other than it getting a bit sticky).

Lever actions are mechanically more complex and jamming is more common. Partly due to the complexity, also often due to the operator not quite completing the lever throw and causing a jam.

How long "long range" is depending on your point of view. You mention he's a "marksman", but also that he "has his gun license" which sounds a lot more civilian to me.

If you're talking about a hunter/recreational shooter, real world "long range" is going to be something like 400-500 metres max with the type of rifle they're likely to have.

If you're talking about a trained marksman you could be talking about 1,000m - 1,500m but you'd be talking about a more purpose built precision rifle, and high quality optics for that. No Joe Blow goes into a gun shop and grabs a $900 off-the-shelf hunting rifle and starts hitting bulleyes at 1,500m, you know?

"What cartridge is best" is a conversation that's literally been discussed millions of times in the shooting community I'd keep it simple and say .308 Winchester, or .300 Win Mag. These are both popular, proven, highly capable cartridges. Go .300 Win Mag if you're story is going to be extreme range stuff.

Either of these would go through 10 layers of medieval plate without blinking. All but the very smallest centrefire cartridges would go through 1 layer without any trouble whatsoever.

About brands, realistically, there are a dozen brands that would fit the story. Remington, and maybe more so Ruger, are both known to be reliable. I think it's fair to say Remington leans more towards accuracy, where being rugged and near unbreakable is very much part of Rugers brand image.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for the reply Norton, you've really helped point me in the right direction.

Cheers

[bladeracer]

Thanks for the reply.

He'll be shooting anywhere between 10 metres to a little over a kilometre (He does this once to impress another character), But he's no military grade marine, He's a office worker who shoots hogs every few months.

How large is his target at that distance?
He has a scope, but im not exactly sure the types of those. ANy recommendations for brands of those?

Cheers

Leupold (pronounced Loopold) would be a good well-known brand.

[TwelveCheeseSticks]

I would very strongly recommend that whatever firearms you decide to write about that you go and actually spend some time handling and shooting them. I am continually annoyed by writers trying to sound authentic by describing the gun, then failing dismally by things like "He instinctively flicked off the safety as he drew his Glock from its holster and caressed the hair trigger with his finger.", (Glocks don't have safeties and have horrendously heavy triggers), or "His clip was almost out of bullets!". In virtually all cases, clips are used to quickly transfer cartridges into the magazine of a firearm - clips are not magazines. Bullets come out the muzzle, cartridges are loaded into the firearm.

And I suggest you fire the firearms without hearing protection at least once, the noise is often totally overlooked by novelists.

For reliability, accuracy and longevity I think you're limited to bolt-action rifles, but the chambering is a wide choice, virtually anything from .223Rem and up will penetrate 2-3mm steel out to hundreds of meters, and medieval armour was not particularly tough. The volume of the ammunition being carried might make it sensible to stick to the smaller cartridges, like .223 - you can carry two or three times more .223 in your pockets than you can .30-06.

Unless your protaganist happened to be carrying a great deal of ammo at the time he went back, you might need to learn about reloading cartridges using blackpowder, or if you're travelling to pre-gunpowder times, learn how to make it yourself - that'll really impress those maidens

Him running out of ammunition isn't much of a problem, as the people living in the world do have access to gunpowder and he has basic knowledge of reloading (I'm going to purposefully be more vague about this, as the subject seems so complicated), The gunpowder is mostly used for ming and whatnot as firearms are considered a very niche weapon which is outclassed by magic, which is plentiful. As for carrying all that ammo, which could he carry around 400 rounds without getting uncomfortable? He's a bit of a wimp, so he cant lift anything particularly heavy.

Cheers, thanks for the reply

[bladeracer]

Gunpowder back then was nothing like the propellants we have now. If he has to resort to loading his modern cartridges with cast lead bullets and blackpowder he is going to give up great deal of performance over modern ammunition. He'll basically have a very small bore rifled musket in that case.

400rds of .223 is probably doable if he doesn't have to carry much else, 400rds of .308 or .30-06 is a different matter. I can weigh both if you want real numbers.

400 rounds of .223 weighs about 4.8kg with 62gn military bullets.
400 rounds of .30-06 weighs about 10kg with 150gn bullets or 10.5kg with 180gn bullets.
400 rounds of .22LR weighs about 1.3kg with 40gn bullets.
400 rounds of 9mm pistol ammo weighs about the same as .223Rem ammo.

[bladeracer]

If they have magic though they shouldn't have any trouble magicking up more rifles and ammo whenever required. But I doubt firearms will be of any use against magic.

[poid]

He's a bit of a wimp, so he cant lift anything particularly heavy.

Cheers, thanks for the reply

Then the round should be 6.5 Creedmoor

How hard do you want to push the 'aussie' angle? Talking about his trusty Lithgow bolt-action would work pretty well if you are pushing that angle. In 308 or 6.5 Creedmoor they can shoot 1000 yards, if you want to emphasise lots of rounds they come in 223 as well.

Agree that getting to a range and doing some shooting will do your writing a world of good.

[bigrich]

Thanks for the reply.

He'll be shooting anywhere between 10 metres to a little over a kilometre (He does this once to impress another character), But he's no military grade marine, He's a office worker who shoots hogs every few months.

He has a scope, but im not exactly sure the types of those. ANy recommendations for brands of those?

Cheers

scopes, leupold (qaulity USA made ) are my choice . shooting over a kilometer is a real feat , even for a military trained sniper, with a big heavy purpose made sniper rifle . i have spoken to people who have made 400 yard shots successfully . longest shot myself to date was 220 yards at a goat on a ridge . for a casual shooter ,who shoots hogs every few months , i might suggest a more modest distance would be in his abilities . as a reference however, if i remember correctly , the record held for a 45-70 sharps rifle (google please tcs, old school buffalo gun from around the 1880's ) at new yorks creedmore rifle range , was 10 shots in 9 inches at 1000 yards . also google "45-70 sandy hook tests " the us military conducted tests with the 45-70 where the shooter hit a 6 foot target at 2.5 miles in 1879 .the rifles used had the flip up apperature sights , not telescopic. quite a feat . aside from making primers, reloading with black powder and casting lead bullets would be viable for your story i think . a compatable old time caliber might be written into your story . the 30-30 and 45-70 are popular with pig hunters , maybe the hero of the story carries one of these as well

you've opened a can of worms for yourself tcs , explore the things relevant to your story line , have a shoot if you can to get the real experience , at a range under guidance of coarse . good to see a writer researching the topics for his book , you might even have fun

all the best and cheers

[bladeracer]

An ethical hunting shot at 1000m is impossible except for somebody that doesn't care if they cripple or maim the animal, 1000m at human adversaries is a different matter - if that's the shot that presents, even a near miss will give them pause to consider a different occupation.

[Wm.Traynor]

not so sure a black powder rifle, even a 451 Whitworth, would be right for TCS. For instance, 400 lead bullets for one of those things would weigh more than 20 pounds/10kg.

[SCJ429]

My vote is for a Sako TRG or Accuracy International AW in 300 Win Mag or 308 Winchester topped with a Nightforce ATACR 5-25x56. Has some one klm capability and would impress most medieval cretins. You can get factory match ammo to suit these calibers which negates the need of the writer to navigate the complex world of reloading.

Otherwise a 375 Cheytac in a custom action could tickle the fancy of fantasy readers.

[Sergeant Hartman]

And this is precisely why i think many stories are not 100% factually accurate regards to guns. REPLY TO WM.T post

If the guy uses black powder, as smokeless is not available in olden times, the speeds will be very low... and even lower with a lead bullet. Plus the barrel will gey dirty so he will need to clean the barrel after every shot either lead or powder fowling. From a 308, speeds are probably around 1500fps, which will be good to take an animal or your armor plates at around 100-200m, no way 1000m.

The problem is that he will need lot of equipment and need to learn lots of skills to make these bullets, stuff that might not be readily available. He can't walk to the shops and get some federal large rifle primers, or a lee lead melter, (yes he might be able to goto a blacksmith). But the bigger problem is there is no internet and how many shooters as a percentage now have knowledge to build lead projectiles and mix up black powder and primer compound.

Also you assumption is that he knew he was going to fantasy lands and thus he is carrying 400 bullets to start up. You guys hunt, tell me how many bullets you take with you on a trip, even varminting you are probably take 100max.

Sorry to burst everyones bubble, but some liberties will need to be taken with the equipment.or he will spend most of the first 2/3 months making equipment. Just pretend he had unlimited supply of modern match bullets.