Covidsafe App you really want it

[Sergeant Hartman]

Hang, that's even worse. They were saying it it doesn't track you you and the data is anonymous.

What you say doesn't make sense. I mean if the app tells me that i have been near an infected person and i don't give a crap,or have the notification turned off and keep on going and infect others.

Farmerpete, mate it uses low power Bluetooth, its just not possible with low power Bluetooth to get less than 2m accuracy as best case senario. You are unfortunately misinformed

[Raband]

Hang, that's even worse. They were saying it it doesn't track you you and the data is anonymous.

What you say doesn't make sense. I mean if the app tells me that i have been near an infected person and i don't give a crap,or have the notification turned off and keep on going and infect others.

Not sure what you're saying.

It doesn't track you and is anonymous as far as I know - It keeps a record of ID's you've been in contact with.

If someone gets infected they can upload that data (after agreeing) and those ID's they were in contact with get warned..

If the person warned decides to ignore the warning then that's on them - if they go on to infect others then I don't know what to say.

[TassieTiger]

But your assuming you would know your infected (and in a timely manner - find that out and upload that information) - what we are saying(or I am) is that if you get cv but don’t know - then the tracking app can be worse.
The fact is, if only a small % of infected ppl don’t have the app, don’t have a smart phone, don’t take phone with them 24/7, don’t know (a symptom), are in pre symptom period, sneeze on a product then leave - etc etc etc etc - then the app could do more harm than good.

I have already heard a relative say she feels sick but when we talked her up about potential cv, she said she had the app and had no alerts so it is just a cold...mean while, if it was cv, she is going about her business, potentially infecting hundreds - and no app solves that...

[Raband]

I'm not assuming anything at all.

I'm not getting the app to let me know if I'm infected (I'd need to get tested for that)

If your relative felt crook, relied on the app and thought it would warn her if she had it then you should have told her she'd a danger to herself and others and should self isolate.

If she's got the app, gets diagnosed with it tomorrow then at least anyone she's come into contact with recently will be warned that they are at risk and should act as such.

At least some of those hundreds she's infected (who have the app) will now get a warning, stop infecting others (if they have it) a couple of weeks before their own symptoms raise flags.

Imagine how many (in the case of your ignorant relative) are now able to stop spreading the disease to others.

[marksman]

"The app is not going to make me feel safer or take less precautions out in the public."
l believe you but l'm sure it will be different for others

[Raband]

"The app is not going to make me feel safer or take less precautions out in the public."
l believe you but l'm sure it will be different for others

As soon as lockdowns are relaxed thousands are going to be taking a mile for the inch they are given.

Regardless of if they have an app or not.

If people rely on the app as an instant warning sytsem then education is needed, not excuses not to use the app

[Sergeant Hartman]

Hmm ill go again. So i have an id in the app, i get diagnosed with covid. I have a bunch of ids on my phone app of people who were near me.

Who knows what persons are those id related to... So there is a database somewhere that links my id with me. That's what i am getting at.

Secondly the technology they use can't resolve to less than 2 meters, so my app might pickup people that are 2m or even 3 meters from me...

So i could be working in a fish and chips shop, a guy comes and parks his car next to the shop and waits for a pizza. Now his app will pickup my app ID. Even though i have no chance of catching the virus.

Worse what happens if the guy battery dies before he reaches the shop, and comes and buys fish from my shop. I could be infected by him but as his phone was off at that time i won't be notified. Worse is if battery was low and the phone kills Bluetooth and the app to save battery he though it was working and thought i was notified when in reality i am not.

If he was taking to a real person they would be able to detect the anomaly in both these situations and act accordingly.

[marksman]

going by the FAQ for the app unless you are closer than 1.5m and for more than 15 minutes you are not a close contact

"Who is a “close contact” for notification purposes?
• State and Territory public health officials will have the contact information for other users
who have been within approximately 1.5 metres of the infected user for 15 minutes or
more."
https://www.health.gov.au/sites/default ... e-faqs.pdf

if the app cannot pick up this close a distance it will not work at all

[Raband]

So you don't know what the app does, how it works or how it reacts, but you're going against someone who thinks it could be something that could help?

OK - Cliff notes:

App is on your phone
Checks bluetooth every minute
Takes note of what ID's it registers from other apps on other peoples phones
Gets 15 "pings" in a row (15 minutes of some other phone/app/person withing range) it makes a note
If someone gets diagnosed with CV they are asked if they have the app and would be willing to upload their data
If they agree their data is uploaded and any ID's that are noted as being withing 1.5m for 15 mins
If your ID was one of the ones flagged your phone number is released from the data and you'll get a call from a health provider

"Hey dude, you spent some time close to someone who's been diagnosed - best you stop mingling with people and get checked in case you got the Rona"

You can say
"Cheers bud - will take steps"
or
"Mah freedom - stop invading my privacy" and keep doing you.

Not sure where the angst is coming from.

It's not a weapon - it's a tool. Pretty sure we're used to that mantra

[Blackened]

But HOW is it really, truly going to help?

I imagine, really, the intent is to provide peace of mind for those who find it in such a thing.

As Wobble pointed out earlier in the topic, alerting you after you've been exposed obviously provides no practical benefit. Other than perhaps that you can then choose to self-isolate? But that's sure as hell an ass-backward way of attempting to manage a pandemic.

The app certainly doesn't appeal to me.

[Raband]

alerting you after you've been exposed obviously provides no practical benefit. .

Alerting you a week or more ealier than you'd find out otherwise (waiting for symptoms and testing) would give a whole 7 days extra of not infecting people

[TassieTiger]

Agree 10000% blackened...the numerous and many holes within the application seem to be glossed over by the ignorant, let alone the data privacy issues, make it so questionable...and worthless to free thinkers.

If the govt really wanted to prevent excessive speeding, they could legislate limiters into vehicles...given the “country of emergency” we seem to find ourselves in, I’m sure if they really wanted too, they could have mandated - or even automatically - the app but I’m guessing some smart people somewhere, verified the perceived lack of real world benefit would not warrant the privacy battle that would be fought at the polls...

[Raband]

.the numerous and many holes within the application.

The holes in the app are the 1.5m for 15 mins requirement before the ID tracking triggers

You could brush past an infected, catch the virus and the app have no idea.

It's not a safeguard - it's just a data collection tool with inbuilt limitations that both hinder and protect.

[TassieTiger]

Last post on this topic for me.
The holes in the app refer to what I have, and ma y others have, already posted up - I’ll reiterate one for you, servings as though you appear to have all the answers...?
A cv positive person doesn’t take his phone into Bunnings and bumps into 30 people? The app helps how?
Hole 2 - same infected cv person does have phone app and does take phone in, coughs on the Plastic trolley handle, then leaves - 20 mins later, you go in and grab that trolley - how does the app help ?
Hole 3....etc.
Hole 4 - as per you have posted up and so on...

I guess it comes down to agreeing to the privacy /data collection conundrum, that the business / courts all over the world is telling us, is much much more important than we ever realised vs your own perceived benefits of the App. Given our govt has poor history on tech / privacy / etc...I’m out.
Stay safe, muzzles down.

[Raband]

Hole 4 - as per you have posted up and so on...

etc

Play the otherside a sec and tell me a time it could work (am happy to tell the times it won't)

[marksman]

really who cares
you want the app good for you
but it does not make me or anyone else a bad person for not wanting it
you haven't converted anyone yet but good luck with it anyway
l dont think you are trying to do a bad thing you just believe everyone should use the app

[Raband]

No, I honestly don't really care if anyone here gets the app or not - am not likely to cross paths

I would prefer to have those I love to be as protected as possible - meh, means nothing on a forum.

I will argue against misinformation.
We've gone from privacy/data issues to "It won't help me" to "What if I ignore it" to "If I was in Bunnings and didn't have my phone on me." to "If I was in a pizza shop and someone was in their car outside it won't help" to "your reasons...."

You're right - who really cares

Millions of reasons not to have it

Not a single reason to have it

[Stix]

Raband...all the different & progressivly changing counter--lets call them "arguements", i doubt are the result of people shifting the goal posts as your last post almost suggests...
Rather, id say its clear they're just some of the multitude of scenarios outlining how this APP cannot really protect us.

I get that it may have an advantage, albeit a minor one, in slowing down & somewhat minimising an outbreak...
But given i can catch it from walking behind someone in a supermarket for 10 seconds, i think a lot people see its benefit being of very little value, especially when weighed in conjunction with trust...& the Govt (including all previous Govt's) are their own worst enemy here...

[Raband]

Will bow out - not trying to change minds, just trying to expand my reasons for not saying "No"

[Stix]

Wasnt intending for you to bow out or disrespect your reasoning...

[Raband]

Cheers - will keep chatting then

My basic point is that even a minor positive from the app beats any of the negatives I've heard so far.

Privacy???????????, lack of intervention on active cases, "what does it do to help me?" etc pale in comparison against even a single life saved if it does actually come down to that.

.Will be the first to delete it and recommend nobody downloads it if I can hear a reason why it's bad - haven't heard one yet

[Sergeant Hartman]

University of NSW epidemiologist Mary-Louise McLaws said she was yet to download the app over fears the data could be accessed by the United States government.

"Given my position as an epidemiologist I can see the great benefit of this app because it decreases the amount of time spent looking for contacts," said Professor McLaws, who is a member of the peak WHO coronavirus response panel.

"What's not clear is who the custodian of the data is and where the data is stored. It's not true informed consent. Until we know what the source code is and until we know whether Amazon has to fulfil Australian law, I won't download the app."

Enough said from me on this topic. If you don't know what an epidemiologist is, look it up first. There is no doubt this app had some benefit... but it's dubious at best especially compared to issues with it.

I believe enough people will install it on their phone to be the 40% the government wants.

[Blackened]

alerting you after you've been exposed obviously provides no practical benefit.

Alerting you a week or more earlier than you'd find out otherwise (waiting for symptoms and testing) would give a whole 7 days extra of not infecting people

I in fact said that very thing in my first reply. The rest of my message was...

alerting you after you've been exposed obviously provides no practical benefit. Other than perhaps that you can then choose to self-isolate? But that's sure as hell an ass-backward way of attempting to manage a pandemic.

Regardless, my point was the purely reactive nature of this approach.

Instead of telling people after they've been exposed, tell them at the point of potential contact.

"We see you've arrived at location XYZ. Be aware this location has had confirmed cases blah, blah, blah... consider leaving and shopping elsewhere."

Or allow people to enter a destination/route, something similar to Google Maps, and be informed if there have been any confirmed cases along their path.

It's like putting up a sign at the exit of a building that says: "Alert: The building you have just left is known to be full of crumbling asbestos. You should have been wearing a respirator. We hope you were. If not, at least now you know you need a doctor. You're welcome."

I'm sure you'd agree that warning is better issued upon your arrival

[Farmerpete]

Why hasn't the government stated publicly that the data won't be used to fine people?? Or that police won't have access to the data??
I don't have anything to hide but I'm questioning the validity of the use of tracking people to keep them safe.
I see it this way when I send cattle off to be slaughtered
first I heard them by going behind and making noise and scaring them to go into their yard.
After they are all yarded I start trying to quiet them using my quiet voice and telling them they are ok and everything is fine.
Then I get one to lead the rest onto the truck to go to slaughterhouse

Step1 scare us home
CHECK
Step2 tell us the pandemic is over.
CHECK
Step3 track our every move to "keep us safe"
PENDING COMPLETION

IM NOT BUYING IT
Yes I'm aware my tinfoil hat is showing

[poid]

They have stated it Farmerpete, it's in legislation that the data cannot be use for anything except contact tracing with fines and potential jail for anyone who uses it otherwise. However it's too easy for them to tweak code and tweak legislation and our govt has a piss poor record when it comes to privacy.

I won't download it. It won't tell me if someone in a Woolies has coughed on something, or I've handled something infected, and I'm capable of taking my own precautions when it comes to social distancing...I can easily tell you who I have been in contact with for more than 15mins in the last 21 days.

It comes down to personal responsibility.

[Farmerpete]

Poid last I checked (admittedly a couple of weeks ago) that wasn't legislation it was just a ministerial directive that could be overruled via a judge/court decision are you sure it's legislated

[poid]

You're right Farmerpete, it is just a determination...when I last looked there was specific reference to 'legislation being passed' but this is a much weaker instrument. Even more reason to stay away from it.

[Blr243]

Sounds like people are more scared of the app than the virus

[AussieCapitalist]

Sounds like people are more scared of the app than the virus

Of course. The virus is literally nothing. The death rate is so low that it is not a big deal, it is below 0.5%. The world economy is being tanked for something that has such a low death rate. What is scary is the implementation of draconian measures and more government powers. And even scarier is that so many people want to go along with it and be locked down. The government has no right to dictate who and what is essential. And people dogging on their neighbours for leaving their homes. It really shows you that the common man can not be trusteed because he will dog you in to big brother in a heart beat.

[AussieCapitalist]

See this article. Due to freedom of information laws in America, 900 so called informants who dogged on their bosses and neighbours for staying open or leaving their homes have now had their names released to the public. That is poetic justice.

https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/inves ... c8ffdeff21