Thoughts on using earth filled tires ?

[Die Judicii]

I really need to build a "safe" wall for a backdrop when zeroing rifles etc.

Has anybody got any ideas regarding the success/safety of using 4 WD tires filled with earth/sand and stacked on top of each other,,,
and side by side, (as in similar pattern to a brick wall)

I'm thinking approx two meters high, and five meters wide, and at least two tire diameters deep.

Comments ???

[rc42]

Tires can actually be dangerous in backstops as the steel belt meshes can make an effective 'trampoline' for projectiles, especially if they have already clipped the edge of a target or are tumbling. The round outer also changes the angle of any ricochet or bounce off the tires themselves.

There are some shooting ranges that have horror stories about using such things in backstops but they would be good to create the structure and shape of the backstop if later covered in soil.

[Blr243]

I’m thinking big mound pushed into a heap by machine , in conjunction with something around the perimeter to stop gravity and rain washing away it’s height. Perhaps an big old retired Circular water tank ... or four posts with their tops tied well with wire Four posts are enclosed with old roofing iron to form a shell cube. Filled with earth

[No1Mk3]

G'day Die Judicii,
As the others said, a mound of dirt works best and cheapest outdoors. I have used a single row of overlapped sand filled (free from a mate) car tyres in an indoor setting in front of a concrete wall which was faced with 16mm form ply (scrounged from construction site) set 12" in front on a 4x2 frame. This was for rimfire and handgun initally but was used for a variety of rifles later, and never a problem. Cheers.

[Die Judicii]

All thoughts/comments appreciated.

I get the bit about the steel belted tires acting a bit like a trampoline, however, if the tires are filled with granite sand, there shouldn't
be any cushioning/trampoline movement.
So being in a relatively unmoving state,,,,, hypothetically a center fire round should punch straight through and into the sand.
Especially so if the tires are nearly bald and therefore much thinner.

The problem with using timber or corrugated iron is that it doesn't take long to get a large and ragged hole through which the sand trickles out.

The granite sand forms a very light and brittle form of soil,,,,,,,, but soon as it dries out it just flows.
I've found in the past that beach sand tends to bind more so than granite sand.

It would be even better if I could find an easy way of cutting the walls of the tires out,, and just leave the thin circular belt of the bald tread area.

Another possibility that I'm thinking of is half a dozed of the large rectangular bales of hay, but then there is the possibility of starting a fire.
Great if it doesn't start a fire, and cheap now that the drought has gone.

[cz515]

The other issue with tyres is that's its environmental hazard. And eventually EPA going to throw a hissy fit on them.

A dirt mound is probably the best. Any rain you don't want to go a dirt mound.

[bladeracer]

I really need to build a "safe" wall for a backdrop when zeroing rifles etc.

Has anybody got any ideas regarding the success/safety of using 4 WD tires filled with earth/sand and stacked on top of each other,,,
and side by side, (as in similar pattern to a brick wall)

I'm thinking approx two meters high, and five meters wide, and at least two tire diameters deep.

Comments ???

Dirt works well, but the mound will get blasted away, as the mound flattens you will get bounces across the top unless you keep rebuilding it or keep your targets very low to the ground which requires a much taller mound than you really need, and it's bloody painful digging all the bullets out of it afterwards. The "old dam wall" they always talk about during the safety lectures works great, unless your father-in-law buried the water pipe an inch beneath the surface
Sleepers or logs also work well but will be blown apart over time.

A very deep pile of tyres works very well, but has a high degree of randomness built into it, some bullets likely will be bounced away, though how dangerous they might be will depend on the situation. I prefer to shoot where there is nothing around for many, many hundreds of meters in any direction just to be safe, in which case there's really no need for a bullet stop, they'll expend themselves bouncing across the paddocks (see Mark&Sam's videos for example, no back stops at all).

The best I've found is sheet rubber, as used in mining conveyor belts (don't use the steel-reinforced stuff). The surface is pretty flat once you build a supporting frame. It's incredibly self-healing for bullets up to .30-cal (.35"+ starts to tear chunks out). Even shooting hundreds of 5rd groups of .22LR in the same places doesn't tear a permanent hole through it. If you build individual frames they're reasonably manageable, making it portable, you can put it 50m from your shed for testing, then put it 500m down the paddock to catch your misses when shooting gongs. I use 12mm rubber in 1800x900mm sheets, spaced 40mm apart. Each sheet with a 25mm steel angle frame weighs about 30kg. Seven sheets have stopped everything I've fired at it. I swapped the front sheet to the back last year as it had well over 30,000 bullets through it and no longer felt as effective. Two 12mm sheets will generally stop .22LR at 100m, at 50m use three just to be certain. Six years ago I paid $270 for the ten sheets cut to size. The cows can kick it over and spend days trampling it without doing any damage at all. For air-rifles I use seven sheets of 3mm rubber in a 600x600mm frame - I think I paid $100 for a 3000mm roll 1000mm wide, but it was new stuff.

And, being portable it doesn't constitute a "permanent range" as is opposed in all states.

[jwai86]

Dirt works well, but the mound will get blasted away, as the mound flattens you will get bounces across the top unless you keep rebuilding it or keep your targets very low to the ground which requires a much taller mound than you really need, and it's bloody painful digging all the bullets out of it afterwards.

Does compacting the dirt make any difference at all?

[bladeracer]

Dirt works well, but the mound will get blasted away, as the mound flattens you will get bounces across the top unless you keep rebuilding it or keep your targets very low to the ground which requires a much taller mound than you really need, and it's bloody painful digging all the bullets out of it afterwards.

Does compacting the dirt make any difference at all?

Probably does, but how do you compact it and how often are you going to re-compact it after shooting it?
Sleepers placed vertically as a wall then back-filled with dirt is probably the simplest and cheapest backstop, but it doesn't last very long. A sheet of rubber across the back of the timber would be helpful to keep the soil from spilling out the front for a time though.
I think the bigger issue is that it's stuck in the one place, which for many will limit the variety of their shooting. I have places I can shoot various distances, but trying to find one place I can shoot all distances from 25m out to 550m is very difficult here. Having a portable back stop lets me move it to suit whatever shooting I want to do.

[Oldbloke]

Don't over think it.

A few logs (sure you have a few) and dirt.
You don't shoot big stuff, from memory 224 cal.

[Die Judicii]

Thanks Blade,,
The conveyor belting does seem at this stage to have the upper hand.
I'll just have to try a bit harder and look a bit further afield.
At clearing sales up here it is not a common commodity,,,, and when it does appear the bidders are like a pack of hungry dogs.
And the end result for the successful bidder is always a pretty steep price.

It's very popular to use under gates to stop dogs digging under,,,,,,,,, and likewise is also used as hanging flaps across water ways. (especially the heavy thickness variety) so it lifts and allows the rush of water through, whilst being a barrier to dogs when its dry.

Whatever I end up with will be in situ permanently, as I have (where I zero currently) dead flat ground with clear line of site, just under a kilometer.
So I can simply back off from 50 meters right up to the maximum distance.

I priced a full sheet of 12mm plate AR 500 the other day,,, and that came it at just under $2,000

[Die Judicii]

Don't over think it.

A few logs (sure you have a few) and dirt.
You don't shoot big stuff, from memory 224 cal.

?????????

Methinks your thinking of someone else Mate.

[on_one_wheel]

I would've thought the tyres would work really well especially if you move the target once in a while to avoid chewing out a hole that the soil might drain out of.


I got real lucky when setting up a range on a mates property.
He had a 30T Excavator there to dig 2 dams.
We tracked that sucker wherever we could while it was there making new tracks and trails through previously impassable country.
While passing the range we levelled a new pad and built a huge backstop that'll outlast human civilisation.

[bladeracer]

Thanks Blade,,
The conveyor belting does seem at this stage to have the upper hand.
I'll just have to try a bit harder and look a bit further afield.
At clearing sales up here it is not a common commodity,,,, and when it does appear the bidders are like a pack of hungry dogs.
And the end result for the successful bidder is always a pretty steep price.

It's very popular to use under gates to stop dogs digging under,,,,,,,,, and likewise is also used as hanging flaps across water ways. (especially the heavy thickness variety) so it lifts and allows the rush of water through, whilst being a barrier to dogs when its dry.

Whatever I end up with will be in situ permanently, as I have (where I zero currently) dead flat ground with clear line of site, just under a kilometer.
So I can simply back off from 50 meters right up to the maximum distance.

I priced a full sheet of 12mm plate AR 500 the other day,,, and that came it at just under $2,000

I live in the centre of three huge coal power stations, though one was shut down recently.
Belle Banne in Morwell sells the old conveyor belt rubber, it is heavily impregnated with cola dust so it's a good idea to pressure wash it initially. That's a great idea about blocking the creeks, but I think our foxes are smarter than that, and we don't have dog fences. We use the same rubber to cover the salt troughs, the cows are bright enough to flick the sheet up to have some salt, while it's rigid enough to flap back down to keep the weather out.

Clearly a sheet of Bisalloy would make an outstanding bullet stop that should last a lifetime, but at 270kg+ it needs to be mounted on a trailer.

Need to load the bus with rifles and ammo and come for a visit I think

[bladeracer]

I would've thought the tyres would work really well especially if you move the target once in a while to avoid chewing out a hole that the soil might drain out of.


I got real lucky when setting up a range on a mates property.
He had a 30T Excavator there to dig 2 dams.
We tracked that sucker wherever we could while it was there making new tracks and trails through previously impassable country.
While passing the range we levelled a new pad and built a huge backstop that'll outlast human civilisation.

We had an excavator in a few years ago to enlarge some dams and I had him build up some particularly high berms just for shooting at. Wouldn't want to get machinery in just to make back stops though.

[Oldbloke]

Don't over think it.

A few logs (sure you have a few) and dirt.
You don't shoot big stuff, from memory 224 cal.

?????????

Methinks your thinking of someone else Mate.

Lol. ok

[Die Judicii]

I would've thought the tyres would work really well especially if you move the target once in a while to avoid chewing out a hole that the soil might drain out of.


I got real lucky when setting up a range on a mates property.
He had a 30T Excavator there to dig 2 dams.
We tracked that sucker wherever we could while it was there making new tracks and trails through previously impassable country.
While passing the range we levelled a new pad and built a huge backstop that'll outlast human civilisation.

LOL,,,,,,,,, ya should be able to see it from space Mate,,, a bit like the great wall of china.

[Die Judicii]

Need to load the bus with rifles and ammo and come for a visit I think

You'd be welcome Mate,,,,,,, but just don't bring any of that miserable cold weather from Vic.

[straightshooter]

Tires can actually be dangerous in backstops as the steel belt meshes can make an effective 'trampoline' for projectiles, especially if they have already clipped the edge of a target or are tumbling. The round outer also changes the angle of any ricochet or bounce off the tires themselves.

There are some shooting ranges that have horror stories about using such things in backstops but they would be good to create the structure and shape of the backstop if later covered in soil.

My understanding is that in NSW police range inspectors will withdraw approval if tyres are in the backstop. So maybe it's not a real good idea.
Also in NSW it's my understanding that it's only considered a range if it is "open to the public" or private competitions are held there.
However there is still a good use for tyres. They can be arranged to form a tunnel at the firing point which acts as a shooting safety baffle with the added advantage of considerably attenuating noise that may be a source of irritation to nearby neighbours. Useful if you like playing with magnum calibers.

[Die Judicii]

Tires can actually be dangerous in backstops as the steel belt meshes can make an effective 'trampoline' for projectiles, especially if they have already clipped the edge of a target or are tumbling. The round outer also changes the angle of any ricochet or bounce off the tires themselves.

There are some shooting ranges that have horror stories about using such things in backstops but they would be good to create the structure and shape of the backstop if later covered in soil.

My understanding is that in NSW police range inspectors will withdraw approval if tyres are in the backstop. So maybe it's not a real good idea.
Also in NSW it's my understanding that it's only considered a range if it is "open to the public" or private competitions are held there.
However there is still a good use for tyres. They can be arranged to form a tunnel at the firing point which acts as a shooting safety baffle with the added advantage of considerably attenuating noise that may be a source of irritation to nearby neighbours. Useful if you like playing with magnum calibers.

Thanks for that Mate.
I never thought about the idea of using tires as a "tunnel" like you've mentioned.
I guess they'd act much like the baffles in a ??? moderator.

I wonder if that would end up with copping a fine (or worse) for having an illegal piece of equipment. ?

[straightshooter]

I guess they'd act much like the baffles in a ??? moderator.

I wonder if that would end up with copping a fine (or worse) for having an illegal piece of equipment. ?

Perish the thought.
All you are doing is providing protective harbour for a local endangered species.

[on_one_wheel]

Tires can actually be dangerous in backstops as the steel belt meshes can make an effective 'trampoline' for projectiles, especially if they have already clipped the edge of a target or are tumbling. The round outer also changes the angle of any ricochet or bounce off the tires themselves.

There are some shooting ranges that have horror stories about using such things in backstops but they would be good to create the structure and shape of the backstop if later covered in soil.

My understanding is that in NSW police range inspectors will withdraw approval if tyres are in the backstop. So maybe it's not a real good idea.
Also in NSW it's my understanding that it's only considered a range if it is "open to the public" or private competitions are held there.
However there is still a good use for tyres. They can be arranged to form a tunnel at the firing point which acts as a shooting safety baffle with the added advantage of considerably attenuating noise that may be a source of irritation to nearby neighbours. Useful if you like playing with magnum calibers.

Thanks for that Mate.
I never thought about the idea of using tires as a "tunnel" like you've mentioned.
I guess they'd act much like the baffles in a ??? moderator.

I wonder if that would end up with copping a fine (or worse) for having an illegal piece of equipment. ?

There was a thread somewhere here with pictures and discussion of drums and tyres as a solution to noise. not being attached to the firearm would mean that it perfectly legal, much like building dirt banks either side of a range to bounce the sound waves upwards away from built up areas

[Matthias McRobbin]

Dirt works well, but the mound will get blasted away, as the mound flattens you will get bounces across the top unless you keep rebuilding it or keep your targets very low to the ground which requires a much taller mound than you really need, and it's bloody painful digging all the bullets out of it afterwards. The "old dam wall" they always talk about during the safety lectures works great, unless your father-in-law buried the water pipe an inch beneath the surface
Sleepers or logs also work well but will be blown apart over time.

A very deep pile of tyres works very well, but has a high degree of randomness built into it, some bullets likely will be bounced away, though how dangerous they might be will depend on the situation. I prefer to shoot where there is nothing around for many, many hundreds of meters in any direction just to be safe, in which case there's really no need for a bullet stop, they'll expend themselves bouncing across the paddocks (see Mark&Sam's videos for example, no back stops at all).

The best I've found is sheet rubber, as used in mining conveyor belts (don't use the steel-reinforced stuff). The surface is pretty flat once you build a supporting frame. It's incredibly self-healing for bullets up to .30-cal (.35"+ starts to tear chunks out). Even shooting hundreds of 5rd groups of .22LR in the same places doesn't tear a permanent hole through it. If you build individual frames they're reasonably manageable, making it portable, you can put it 50m from your shed for testing, then put it 500m down the paddock to catch your misses when shooting gongs. I use 12mm rubber in 1800x900mm sheets, spaced 40mm apart. Each sheet with a 25mm steel angle frame weighs about 30kg. Seven sheets have stopped everything I've fired at it. I swapped the front sheet to the back last year as it had well over 30,000 bullets through it and no longer felt as effective. Two 12mm sheets will generally stop .22LR at 100m, at 50m use three just to be certain. Six years ago I paid $270 for the ten sheets cut to size. The cows can kick it over and spend days trampling it without doing any damage at all. For air-rifles I use seven sheets of 3mm rubber in a 600x600mm frame - I think I paid $100 for a 3000mm roll 1000mm wide, but it was new stuff.

And, being portable it doesn't constitute a "permanent range" as is opposed in all states.

What a great idea using portable rubber conveyor belt sheets. I live near the power stations too, so I'll have to try that one out!

I have a few questions if you don't mind:

1. How thick did you go on the steel for your 25mm steel angle frame to hold up the 12mm rubber sheets?
2. You mentioned that .35"+ starts to tear chunks out - would this also be the case for a large bore air rifle, e.g. an Airforce Texan .357? (maximum of 400 foot pounds based on https://airforceairguns.com/product/texan-357-caliber/)
3. Do you ever reclaim the lead slugs and cast your own?

[bladeracer]

What a great idea using portable rubber conveyor belt sheets. I live near the power stations too, so I'll have to try that one out!

I have a few questions if you don't mind:

1. How thick did you go on the steel for your 25mm steel angle frame to hold up the 12mm rubber sheets?
2. You mentioned that .35"+ starts to tear chunks out - would this also be the case for a large bore air rifle, e.g. an Airforce Texan .357? (maximum of 400 foot pounds based on https://airforceairguns.com/product/texan-357-caliber/)
3. Do you ever reclaim the lead slugs and cast your own?

I think the angle is maybe 2.5mm, it's not heavy stuff.
Yes, I would think the air-rifle would do similar damage to the .38 Special and .357mm bullets.
Yep, main purpose of using the rubber sheets is that the bullets fall to the bottom for recovery. You do get quite a bit of fragments of rubber as well, but it's a whole lot cleaner than digging them out of the dirt.
Yes, I cast bullets. I need to do a big casting session quite soon.

Are you down around Traralgon/Morwell/Churchill?

[ob1]

I got shot by a 40 cal round from another shooter coming back from a tyre buried well inside a sand berm, so I can't recommend using that method. Broke the skin of my stomach, but it would have taken an eye out if it hit me in the head. The side walls at the SAS ranges in Perth are loose hanging rubber sheets and that works much better- the energy is robbed by the projectile moving the sheet and there is no rebound return. The backstops that seem to work best are angled metal or lots of loose clean fill.

[Die Judicii]

I got shot by a 40 cal round from another shooter coming back from a tyre buried well inside a sand berm, so I can't recommend using that method. Broke the skin of my stomach, but it would have taken an eye out if it hit me in the head. The side walls at the SAS ranges in Perth are loose hanging rubber sheets and that works much better- the energy is robbed by the projectile moving the sheet and there is no rebound return. The backstops that seem to work best are angled metal or lots of loose clean fill.

Thanks for your recent input there Mate.
I wouldn't be losing any sleep over my issue/question cos I ended up selling that property and moving on from that idea and need.
I now use a large quarry that has very steep high walls, and huge mounds of loose earth at one end which solves all my previous issues.

[bladeracer]

I got shot by a 40 cal round from another shooter coming back from a tyre buried well inside a sand berm, so I can't recommend using that method. Broke the skin of my stomach, but it would have taken an eye out if it hit me in the head. The side walls at the SAS ranges in Perth are loose hanging rubber sheets and that works much better- the energy is robbed by the projectile moving the sheet and there is no rebound return. The backstops that seem to work best are angled metal or lots of loose clean fill.

The SAS 360-killhouse is what gave me the idea of using conveyor belt rubber to capture bullets. I got to shoot IPSC in there in the early nineties.

At Cowboy we all get showered with gravel and bullets (I have no idea why they insist we shoot on gravel), with a fragment of lead occasionally breaking the skin. Myself and the guy standing beside me both caught flattened .45-cal bullets to the chest last month. I haven't done much shooting at buried tyres though so can't speak to their effectiveness. Tyres are the wrong shape to be shooting at the outside curve, in my opinion. Stacking them in "tunnels" filled with dirt so bullets hit the dirt and are then captured by the rubber would be better I think, but a mound of dirt is simpler. When I started shooting here I just shot at a mound of dirt in front of the dam wall. Every week or two I'd use the metal detector to dig all the bullets out then re-pile the dirt. After a year or so I got sick of playing with dirty recovered bullets so I switched to sheets of rubber stood vertically, so much better, but not easily portable unless you put wheels on it and tow it around. Throwing ten 30kg steel-framed panels of rubber in and out of the ute got boring pretty quickly

Speaking of ricochets, where I shoot in the bush the track is well rutted and with the rain we just got there was a large puddle, perhaps eight-meters long. I fired some .22's into it for giggles and my mate mentioned that we're not supposed to shoot at water because "danger". So I got down as low as I could and fired bullets at the water trying to get them to skip and hit the bank opposite (the bank is about 12m high so would certainly have caught any bouces). I started close and worked my way across the puddle so the angle kept decreasing. None skipped of course. I had stood some sticks in the water to mark where I figured I'd fired, so when we finished shooting, I dug down to see if I could find any of the bullets laying on the bottom in the mud. Out in the deeper parts I didn't recover any bullets, but the water was 400mm deep and icy so I didn't try real hard. The last bullet was fired at the water only about 300mm from the far bank, where it was no more than 75mm deep. As I reached into the water to scrape the mud I spotted the bullet sitting on the mud bank just in the edge of the water. No impact mark though, it was just resting there. I think it hit the water, was sucked down tumbling, expending all its energy, and gently came to rest at the edge of the water. The water had cleared by the time we finished our shooting and I couldn't see any impact or track of the bullet in the mud below the water. It's certainly possible to skip a bullet across water, I don't think too many people doubt that, but it's not very easy to do.