bladeracer wrote:JohnV wrote:Good question I have never bothered to work that out and price rises would have eroded the savings .
The most relevant factor now is the cost of the equipment , to buy what I have now would cost me about $6000 . You can buy a lot of bullets for $6000.
I can't just use any old scrap lead , it has to be fairly pure lead otherwise the presses that I have can't swage the cores or point form the jackets .
More Modern larger presses can handle harder alloys but only a hydraulic press with large diameter dies can handle wheel weight alloys .
Yes, the equipment outlay is the real issue I think.
Even if you made 60,000 bullets you're still at ten-cents per bullet just to cover the cost of the equipment - plus the cost of the jackets and the lead (you would get some of that back if you sold the equipment afterwards of course). You can buy really nice .224" bullets for under 15 cents apiece, when they're available. If you have to buy pure lead at $12/kg that's four-cents per bullet for 55gn bullets, plus the jackets. From Sierra, the .224" jackets are US$170/1000, or seventeen-cents-US each (.264" are US$135/1000, .308" are US$265/1000).
Good luck trying to make any money out of making them commercially nowadays.
However, Scott Driver of Driver Bullets is making very nice .311" and .308" bullets for about $75/100. I keep meaning to try them but I already have thousands of bullets to play with in my thirty-cal rifles.
The Berry's .30-cal Copper-Plated 123gn and 150gn bullets are under 25c apiece and shoot great, for lower velocities.
Bills Shed wrote:I would never pay $12.00/ kg for lead. I pick up dead soft roofing lead and make my billets,/ wire/ cores out of that. $2.00/ kg tops.
bigpete wrote:I found them.
Oldbloke wrote:bigpete wrote:I found them.
Can I suggest you start a new thread when you start this project. I imagine a few here would be very interested.
Bills Shed wrote:Just a heads up on jackets. Malcolm from the old bullet factory is selling of his stock of jackets. They are for his machines and so you will need to have your eyes open and know what you need but these prices are very good. I picked up 8k of copper jackets. This will give me a better quality jacket than my 22LR / 22mag / 17 WSM cases and I do not need to derim them. I have the gear to make them work for me.
Unfortunately there were few interested and many went for SCRAP. I am glad that he had some left.
https://www.bulletmaker.com/Guns/Brass.html
Bill
Bills Shed wrote:I will have to see then. That is a surprise. I did not expect that he would sell poor quality. Not to sure how the base section gets rough but time will tell. His projectiles were well respected back in the day.
I too swage for the best accuracy that I can get but I do not need to shoot paper. Many shooters strive for .5 MOA at the range and then never shoot past 150m.
Bill
JohnV wrote:Bills Shed wrote:Just a heads up on jackets. Malcolm from the old bullet factory is selling of his stock of jackets. They are for his machines and so you will need to have your eyes open and know what you need but these prices are very good. I picked up 8k of copper jackets. This will give me a better quality jacket than my 22LR / 22mag / 17 WSM cases and I do not need to derim them. I have the gear to make them work for me.
Unfortunately there were few interested and many went for SCRAP. I am glad that he had some left.
https://www.bulletmaker.com/Guns/Brass.html
Bill
I once bough a few thousand jackets of Malcolm but unfortunately they were poor quality and the base section all rough with grit contamination ground into many of the base section . Was not game to put them into my dies . However they would be better than rimfire jackets .
I swage for accuracy not savings so much . I would rather buy projectiles than use poor quality jackets . If you got them at the right price then it's probably well worth it . Malcolm refused to take back my jackets and replace them with better quality so I would not deal with him anymore anyway .
Bills Shed wrote:Nothing really wrong with rimfire jackets. They work fine for a hunting projectile. The issue is the firing pin indent, which can be a weak spot. It is also right on the edge of the base once point formed and this can lead to accuracy issues. Also derimming the rim fire case means that there is a cleaning process before that, so. That is another step in the process. Unfolding the rim can also cause uneven jackets and weak spots. They do have their limitations. When drawing the 22LR cases down to 17 cal most weaknesses are found and the jacket will fail in the die. Once drawn the 22 lr case makes a excellent 17 cal jacket.
As commercial jackets are quite expensive, taking the time to sort brass, clean, derim, trim ( if required) and anneal is still a viable option but time consuming. If you can get jackets at a good price it defiantly speeds things up.
I will see how these jackets that I bought work out. They were at a very good price so I would not have lost much if I can not make them work. Again I am not a paper shooter, I clear paddocks and feed dogs.
northdude wrote:Whats wrong with using rimfire jackets?
JohnV wrote:Bills Shed wrote:Nothing really wrong with rimfire jackets. They work fine for a hunting projectile. The issue is the firing pin indent, which can be a weak spot. It is also right on the edge of the base once point formed and this can lead to accuracy issues. Also derimming the rim fire case means that there is a cleaning process before that, so. That is another step in the process. Unfolding the rim can also cause uneven jackets and weak spots. They do have their limitations. When drawing the 22LR cases down to 17 cal most weaknesses are found and the jacket will fail in the die. Once drawn the 22 lr case makes a excellent 17 cal jacket.
As commercial jackets are quite expensive, taking the time to sort brass, clean, derim, trim ( if required) and anneal is still a viable option but time consuming. If you can get jackets at a good price it defiantly speeds things up.
I will see how these jackets that I bought work out. They were at a very good price so I would not have lost much if I can not make them work. Again I am not a paper shooter, I clear paddocks and feed dogs.
I have done a fair bit of paddock clearing myself ( gun , dozer , chainsaw , Gelly & nitroprill ) and a lot of dog feeding . My last pig dog died about 10 years ago and I am not getting anymore dogs . Most drawing down operations need to be done in steps in small dies . I have a set of ring dies that you can change the button ring in the die to different diameters but the draw back is if the draw is too much you can crack the ring button .
Newer presses with more leverage and bigger diameter dies are more versatile but need a permanent bench setup . My gear can be used on a stump in the bush if necessary . The way to minimize the effect of the firing pin dent is use a slightly domed base punch ( create concave base ) to point form . The weaker edge obturates better into the grooves . Rimfire jackets should not be used in very rough or cut rifled barrels .
Bills Shed wrote:Malcolm’s.224” jackets arrived today. I can see no issues with them. All the .224” jackets are .705” long. Clean and square. I did not check the wall thickness
I was concerned that they would not fit my core seat die but they are a perfect fit. I couldn’t help myself, I selected two cores that weighed the same from my junk bucket, seated the core and then point formed them. I did not pay much attention to consistent lube but just wanted to see if they would go through the PF die ok. They worked fine with no annealing required. Just for giggles I tried to draw one down to .172”. This did not work and I punched straight through the base. I did a quick and dirty anneal and then tried again. They drew fine.
It was so long that it stuck to the draw punch and I had to remove it with a pair of pliers, hence the marks on the jacket.
The .705” jacket makes a very nice 62gn ( pictured) but it would be easy to trim them down to any size for lighter projectiles.
This is my first foray into copper jackets and there will be a bit to learn yet.
Bill
Bills Shed wrote:ITime frames are horrendous ATM and the cost has been already talked about at the start of this thread.