Zero

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Zero

Post by Royalfriz » 07 Dec 2022, 11:30 am

Any tips on zeroing your rifle at the range which is in metres and your scope is yards. Is there much of a difference?
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Re: Zero

Post by Lazarus » 07 Dec 2022, 11:43 am

Royalfriz wrote:Any tips on zeroing your rifle at the range which is in metres and your scope is yards. Is there much of a difference?


When you say your scope is in yards, in what sense?
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Re: Zero

Post by Royalfriz » 07 Dec 2022, 11:59 am

MOA is yards and the range is in metres and I was just seeing how much difference it will make.
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Re: Zero

Post by Royalfriz » 07 Dec 2022, 12:08 pm

Yards/inches..
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Re: Zero

Post by No1Mk3 » 07 Dec 2022, 12:13 pm

No difference at all in regard to achieving zero. You adjust point of impact to point of aim by minutes of angle, therefore if your point of impact is 4 minutes left and 2 minutes low from your point of aim then those are your adjustments and this holds true whether you are at 100m, 100yds 2000 miles. your rifle will be zero at whatever your range is, just remember to shoot various ranges and determine your drop in minutes,
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Re: Zero

Post by Lazarus » 07 Dec 2022, 12:19 pm

Makes no substantive difference mate.

When you're zeroing, at say 100m the difference between that and 100 yards is only about 8.5m and fall of shot in that small distance is negligible.

Don't confuse yourself worrying about that.

Just remember that one 1/4 inch click at 100m is 1/2 inch at 200m, 3/4 at 300m etc.
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Re: Zero

Post by animalpest » 07 Dec 2022, 2:52 pm

Makes very little difference at normal shooting ranges. Having said that, all my rifles are sighted in at yards as my scopes are in inches and so is my trajectory charts
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Re: Zero

Post by Oldbloke » 07 Dec 2022, 4:27 pm

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Re: Zero

Post by Biscuits » 07 Dec 2022, 6:23 pm

It doesn’t matter if you are measuring off the reticle, MoA is an angular measurement.

If you are going to approximate 1 MoA as being 1 inch at 100 yards, then using 100 metres would be a bit inaccurate. 1 MoA is 2.9cm at 100 metres.

But that is for adjusting your turrets. Once it is zeroed at a certain range, it is zeroed.
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Re: Zero

Post by animalpest » 07 Dec 2022, 7:05 pm

Biscuits wrote:It doesn’t matter if you are measuring off the reticle, MoA is an angular measurement.

If you are going to approximate 1 MoA as being 1 inch at 100 yards, then using 100 metres would be a bit inaccurate. 1 MoA is 2.9cm at 100 metres.

But that is for adjusting your turrets. Once it is zeroed at a certain range, it is zeroed.


I am not sure I am with you here. Yes, MOA is an angle, but really so is adjusting an inch at 100, which is 2 @ 200, 3 @ 300 and so forth. But we are not talking MOA here, we are discussing zeroing, which is adjusting your scope in inches or milrad (10mm). That is what scope adjustments do, change a quarter inch per click and so forth.

MOA is really irrelevant to zeroing most scopes.
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Re: Zero

Post by Die Judicii » 07 Dec 2022, 8:01 pm

Depending on what you intend on doing with your "aimed at" (pardon the pun) zero to a certain degree.
Will you be hunting, plinking, or precision target shooting ?
Then caliber and distance also come to play.
If your not into long range precision shooting, and just plinking,,,, you don't necessarily need the above mentioned mathematics.

Just get a cardboard fridge box,,, draw a target (bunny) or dot, or cross with texta pen.
Fire a couple shots at whatever distance you want to zero at.
See how far left or right the impact is,, and adjust to suit.
Do that every couple of shots till in line.
Repeat the procedure for up or down till your happy.
or,,
Fire one shot, then anchor the rifle with cross hairs sitting on your original aiming point and while anchored,, wind the cross hair to the impact hole.

Crude, simple, reliable, and not needing mathematics.

You won't be allowed to set up your fridge box at a Range though,,,,,,,,, :lol: :lol:
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Re: Zero

Post by in2anity » 07 Dec 2022, 8:05 pm

Keep turning the knobs until the holes are appearing roughly under the cross.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Zero

Post by bladeracer » 07 Dec 2022, 10:18 pm

Royalfriz wrote:Any tips on zeroing your rifle at the range which is in metres and your scope is yards. Is there much of a difference?


Metres or yards are not relevant.
What might matter is where you attend a range that only lets you shoot in metre or yard distances.
If you want to zero at 100m on a 100yd or 91m range use a ballistic app to determine how high you want to be at 91m and that will give you your 100m zero.
The actual distance you choose to zero is entirely down to your personal preference, it can be at any distance in metres or yards that you prefer.

This is no different to somebody that wants to zero at a "random" distance that gives them the MPBR that they want. If somebody wants to zero a .223 at the distance they calculate their bullet will be within 1.5" above or below the line of sight they might want to zero at something like 164m (just a guess), but ranges probably won't allow you to place a target at that distance. So you need to calculate how high you want to be at 100m and zero there. But you must still confirm this at greater distances when you get into the field before targeting live targets. If you can shoot at 100m and 200m then do both and these two will confirm whether it is zeroed at 164m.

Scopes are generally adjusted and calibrated in minutes, which are neither metres or yards, they are degrees, thus the actual measurement is irrelevant.
A minute is 29.07mm at 100m and it is 1.047" at 100yd. For calculation, 29mm and 1.05" are sufficiently accurate.
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Re: Zero

Post by bladeracer » 07 Dec 2022, 11:01 pm

Royalfriz wrote:MOA is yards and the range is in metres and I was just seeing how much difference it will make.


MoA are not yards though, MoA has no distance measurement as it is angular.
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Re: Zero

Post by bladeracer » 07 Dec 2022, 11:10 pm

animalpest wrote:
Biscuits wrote:It doesn’t matter if you are measuring off the reticle, MoA is an angular measurement.

If you are going to approximate 1 MoA as being 1 inch at 100 yards, then using 100 metres would be a bit inaccurate. 1 MoA is 2.9cm at 100 metres.

But that is for adjusting your turrets. Once it is zeroed at a certain range, it is zeroed.


I am not sure I am with you here. Yes, MOA is an angle, but really so is adjusting an inch at 100, which is 2 @ 200, 3 @ 300 and so forth. But we are not talking MOA here, we are discussing zeroing, which is adjusting your scope in inches or milrad (10mm). That is what scope adjustments do, change a quarter inch per click and so forth.

MOA is really irrelevant to zeroing most scopes.


Please do not keep propagating this myth that a minute is "one inch at 100 yards", it is not. It is one and one-twentieth of an inch at 100 yards. I have an adjustable scope base that is graduated to "one inch at 100yd" and it sucks to use. Dialing it up "100MoA" only comes up 95-minutes. I would hope nobody nowadays is producing scopes with this defective calibration. A scope adjustment should move in minutes not inches.

I agree that if you are simply zeroing it doesn't matter at all what the adjustments are. Just fire a good group at the distance you want to zero at, hold your reticle on the same point of aim and adjust both turrets to move the reticle into the centre of the group, then fire another group to confirm.
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Re: Zero

Post by Royalfriz » 08 Dec 2022, 8:26 am

Lazarus wrote:Makes no substantive difference mate.

When you're zeroing, at say 100m the difference between that and 100 yards is only about 8.5m and fall of shot in that small distance is negligible.

Don't confuse yourself worrying about that.

Thanks mate..

Just remember that one 1/4 inch click at 100m is 1/2 inch at 200m, 3/4 at 300m etc.
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Re: Zero

Post by Royalfriz » 08 Dec 2022, 8:27 am

No1Mk3 wrote:No difference at all in regard to achieving zero. You adjust point of impact to point of aim by minutes of angle, therefore if your point of impact is 4 minutes left and 2 minutes low from your point of aim then those are your adjustments and this holds true whether you are at 100m, 100yds 2000 miles. your rifle will be zero at whatever your range is, just remember to shoot various ranges and determine your drop in minutes,


Thanks mate.
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Re: Zero

Post by Royalfriz » 08 Dec 2022, 8:29 am

Royalfriz wrote:
Lazarus wrote:Makes no substantive difference mate.

When you're zeroing, at say 100m the difference between that and 100 yards is only about 8.5m and fall of shot in that small distance is negligible.

Don't confuse yourself worrying about that.

Thanks mate..

Just remember that one 1/4 inch click at 100m is 1/2 inch at 200m, 3/4 at 300m etc.


Thanks mate.
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Re: Zero

Post by animalpest » 08 Dec 2022, 9:14 am

"A scope adjustment should be in MOA not inches".
That's not true.

If I want to work out how much to adjust the scope to zero it, then you use inches. Not MOA

If I want to work out how much drop there will be at a certain distance, then it as well as holdover is in inches. Not MOA

If I want to work out how much windbags to use, then that will be in inches.

The only use for MOA is measuring group size.

Of my 35 scopes on rifles, all are 1 click = quarter inch. None are in MOA.
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Re: Zero

Post by in2anity » 08 Dec 2022, 11:02 am

animalpest wrote:Of my 35 scopes on rifles, all are 1 click = quarter inch. None are in MOA.

WRONG. They print, '1 click = 1/4" / 100 yd' or similar on scopes as a convenient rounded off value, because practically you will never detect that lost 0.01175". Pretty much all scopes will still technically "click" relative to a fraction of angular degrees or radians.
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Re: Zero

Post by animalpest » 08 Dec 2022, 12:23 pm

Either way, when you want to zero your scope, you look at the bullet holes, measure how many inches of adjustment you need and turn the turrets that many inches.

One of my rifles has a drop of 47.5" at 500yds, which requires 9.5 inches of adjustment to be on the 500yd target. That's 38 clicks.
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Re: Zero

Post by in2anity » 08 Dec 2022, 1:02 pm

animalpest wrote:One of my rifles has a drop of 47.5" at 500yds, which requires 9.5 inches of adjustment to be on the 500yd target. That's 38 clicks.


Close, but 47.5" drop at 500yds is 9 minutes of angle. 9*4 = 36 clicks. If you add in wind, it's likely to be a couple of clicks off anyway, changing day to day, depending on wind direction and strength. Headwind makes it drop, tailwind lifts it up. Crosswind effects spin and can to a smaller degree affect elevation (it does in smallbore), not to mention gyroscopic drift (which is admittedly small at only 500yds).

You may have observed 38 clicks in the field, but your math is wrong, only to worsen the further you stretch...

Indeed we are splitting hairs here; in reality the point of impact will change day to day. And in a target shooting setting, we have the opportunity to tweak, rendering such nuanced argument kinda irrelevant...
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Re: Zero

Post by bladeracer » 08 Dec 2022, 2:42 pm

I prefer millimeters rather than inches, but either do the same job.
But scope adjustment should be in angular measurement regardless - minutes or mils usually.
I use minutes for calculating and measuring drop and windage as my reticles and turrets are calibrated in minutes, not inches.
I only have one right to hand just now.
20221208_153357b.jpg
20221208_153357b.jpg (181.01 KiB) Viewed 2051 times

I don't know how many scopes I have, but more than twenty, plus non-magnified optics and adjustable mounts. The only item I have that is calibrated in inches is the adjustable ZB-Lite Pro mount, which to be fair is not marketed as an adjustable scope mount at all.

What brand of scopes offer 1/4" clicks?
Please post pics of these scopes that are calibrated in quarter-inch clicks as I'd hate to end up with something like that.



animalpest wrote:"A scope adjustment should be in MOA not inches".
That's not true.

If I want to work out how much to adjust the scope to zero it, then you use inches. Not MOA

If I want to work out how much drop there will be at a certain distance, then it as well as holdover is in inches. Not MOA

If I want to work out how much windbags to use, then that will be in inches.

The only use for MOA is measuring group size.

Of my 35 scopes on rifles, all are 1 click = quarter inch. None are in MOA.
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Re: Zero

Post by bladeracer » 08 Dec 2022, 2:46 pm

in2anity wrote:WRONG. They print, '1 click = 1/4" / 100 yd' or similar on scopes as a convenient rounded off value, because practically you will never detect that lost 0.01175". Pretty much all scopes will still technically "click" relative to a fraction of angular degrees or radians.


Perhaps on some really cheap scopes they might have that, anything remotely usable will be in minutes or mils.
On something flat-shooting and only used to maybe 300m the difference is generally irrelevant. But for anything with a trajectory or used at longer distances the extra twentieth of an inch does add up.
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Re: Zero

Post by bladeracer » 08 Dec 2022, 2:53 pm

animalpest wrote:Either way, when you want to zero your scope, you look at the bullet holes, measure how many inches of adjustment you need and turn the turrets that many inches.

One of my rifles has a drop of 47.5" at 500yds, which requires 9.5 inches of adjustment to be on the 500yd target. That's 38 clicks.


You may do it this way but that doesn't mean everybody else does, and it certainly doesn't mean anybody else should.

I do this using minutes as my reticle is graduated in minutes. Hold the crosshair on the aimpoint and estimate how far off the bullet hole is by using the reticle. My reticle gives 3-minute windage and under holds so I can see whether I'm 1.5-minutes or 6-minutes off and adjust to suit. For elevation the BDC gives me several holds I can use to more accurately measure the drop.
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Re: Zero

Post by bladeracer » 08 Dec 2022, 2:59 pm

in2anity wrote:Indeed we are splitting hairs here; in reality the point of impact will change day to day. And in a target shooting setting, we have the opportunity to tweak, rendering such nuanced argument kinda irrelevant...


Except that we can measure minutes at any random distance, I can't measure 47.5" from 500yd unless I have a precisely measured and clearly visible datum to work with at precisely that distance. If I'm shooting at the side of a barn at long distance I can see where the bullet hits, estimate how far it is from point of aim in minutes, and adjust to suit just using the reticle, without having to go up there and measure it.
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Re: Zero

Post by Oldbloke » 08 Dec 2022, 3:20 pm

The OP asked:

Royalfriz wrote:Any tips on zeroing your rifle at the range which is in metres and your scope is yards. Is there much of a difference?



Now we are discussing mils, MOA, 1/4" etc. Half this stuff I hardly understand. :lol: :lol:
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Re: Zero

Post by Apollo » 08 Dec 2022, 3:22 pm

What a joke you guys are turning this into. Just like a few little school kids having a pissing up the wall contest.

35 scopes and rifles in Western Australia...really..!! Thought you WA guys were lucky to legally own a few rifles.

Irrespective what is stamped on the Elevation/Windage, I think you will find they are MOA. For the simple minded I think
some may say 1/4" for those that simply don't understand how a scope adjustment works. Just for a laugh I had a look
at a few scope details... Now one lot of info from a dealer/retailer screed says 1/4" adjustments BUT the actual manufacturer
of that same scope says 1/4 MOA adjustment and then the total adjustment available in MOA.

It's no wonder that so many have left this Forum or like me just don't comment much at all.

Then in another Thread we have an argument going on comparing the SSAA and NSC... They aren't even comparable.. One is playing with Shooters Rights, the other is operating and owning shooting ranges / competitions. Fionn and Oldbloke need a kick up the rear end... how childish....!!

Guys....Get A Grip.
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Re: Zero

Post by Lazarus » 08 Dec 2022, 6:44 pm

""What brand of scopes offer 1/4" clicks?
Please post pics of these scopes that are calibrated in quarter-inch clicks as I'd hate to end up with something like that.""

I only have 5 scopes, the two I use, a Hawke and an Athlon both have moa marked on the turrets as does a Simmons 22mag, but a Nikko and a Bushnell Banner which I suspect is a clone both are marked 1/4".

Bushnell Banner.jpg
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Nikko Stirling  Mountmaster.jpg
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Re: Zero

Post by bladeracer » 08 Dec 2022, 7:02 pm

Thanks Laz, interesting to see. I don't suppose you ever checked them to see if they are graduated in inches or minutes?

Lazarus wrote:""What brand of scopes offer 1/4" clicks?
Please post pics of these scopes that are calibrated in quarter-inch clicks as I'd hate to end up with something like that.""

I only have 5 scopes, the two I use, a Hawke and an Athlon both have moa marked on the turrets as does a Simmons 22mag, but a Nikko and a Bushnell Banner which I suspect is a clone both are marked 1/4".

Bushnell Banner.jpg


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