Question for Experienced Bushy

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Question for Experienced Bushy

Post by JohnV » 07 Sep 2023, 12:21 pm

I am doing some map making and I have a few questions about freshwater Lagoons in NSW .
1/ If a lagoon never floods from any adjacent river does that mean it will never have fish in it from natural causes that is ?
2/ If a Lagoon dries out in drought regular does that mean no fish will be in it ?
3/ Can fish or fish eggs survive drought in a dried out Lagoon bed and repopulate the Lagoon in time ?
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Re: Question for Experienced Bushy

Post by bigpete » 07 Sep 2023, 3:18 pm

The answer to the last question is yes
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Re: Question for Experienced Bushy

Post by JohnV » 07 Sep 2023, 4:50 pm

Ok thanks that is helpful .
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Re: Question for Experienced Bushy

Post by niteowl » 07 Sep 2023, 5:32 pm

JohnV wrote:I am doing some map making and I have a few questions about freshwater Lagoons in NSW .
1/ If a lagoon never floods from any adjacent river does that mean it will never have fish in it from natural causes that is ?
2/ If a Lagoon dries out in drought regular does that mean no fish will be in it ?
3/ Can fish or fish eggs survive drought in a dried out Lagoon bed and repopulate the Lagoon in time ?


1/ Not necessarily
2/ More than likely
3/ Only some fish can do that
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Re: Question for Experienced Bushy

Post by Jorlcrin » 07 Sep 2023, 8:09 pm

Outback QLD perspective:-

1/ Most of our on-property dams are built along gullies that eventually feed into larger creeks.
None of the creeks flow for more than about 2 months in a wet year.
And yet, most of those dams will populate with freshwater fish (Usually Golden Perch and Black Bream); even when the dam has gone dry.
Even dams that we de-silt when dry (ie remove all the silted mud with earth-moving machinery) will re-populate with fish in a few years.
And about a week after the floods have gone, you often see small fish swimming upstream over the creek crossings.

2/ SOME species of local fish seem to be able to bury into the mud and survive till the water returns, but even when de-silting dams, we've never actually found any hibernating fish in the silt.
So, it's POSSIBLE they are only re-populating when there is overland flow.

3/ Pretty sure there are some species of Australian fish that indeed can lay eggs that will last many years.
I know there is a species of shrimp in Central Australia that has eggs that endure decades of dry; I'd be surprised if there isnt a fish or two that can pull off the same trick.
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Re: Question for Experienced Bushy

Post by JohnV » 07 Sep 2023, 10:33 pm

niteowl wrote:
JohnV wrote:I am doing some map making and I have a few questions about freshwater Lagoons in NSW .
1/ If a lagoon never floods from any adjacent river does that mean it will never have fish in it from natural causes that is ?
2/ If a Lagoon dries out in drought regular does that mean no fish will be in it ?
3/ Can fish or fish eggs survive drought in a dried out Lagoon bed and repopulate the Lagoon in time ?


1/ Not necessarily
2/ More than likely
3/ Only some fish can do that

Ok thanks that is a bit more to the puzzle.
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Re: Question for Experienced Bushy

Post by JohnV » 07 Sep 2023, 10:54 pm

Jorlcrin wrote:Outback QLD perspective:-

1/ Most of our on-property dams are built along gullies that eventually feed into larger creeks.
None of the creeks flow for more than about 2 months in a wet year.
And yet, most of those dams will populate with freshwater fish (Usually Golden Perch and Black Bream); even when the dam has gone dry.
Even dams that we de-silt when dry (ie remove all the silted mud with earth-moving machinery) will re-populate with fish in a few years.
And about a week after the floods have gone, you often see small fish swimming upstream over the creek crossings.

2/ SOME species of local fish seem to be able to bury into the mud and survive till the water returns, but even when de-silting dams, we've never actually found any hibernating fish in the silt.
So, it's POSSIBLE they are only re-populating when there is overland flow.

3/ Pretty sure there are some species of Australian fish that indeed can lay eggs that will last many years.
I know there is a species of shrimp in Central Australia that has eggs that endure decades of dry; I'd be surprised if there isnt a fish or two that can pull off the same trick.

Thanks for that , very good info . So very small fingerling fish could be making their way along even a paddock drain to repopulate a dam or lagoon . interesting .
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Re: Question for Experienced Bushy

Post by Jorlcrin » 08 Sep 2023, 6:03 am

Glad I could help.

Yep; We've found fingerlings (and even quite large fish) up around the homestead in a really wet year, despite there not being even a gully for a few hundred metres.
On the Creek-crossings after the floods have abated, we'd even see fish as large as 4 inches long; heading upstream.
[But the majority of them were small fingerlings.]
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Re: Question for Experienced Bushy

Post by JohnV » 08 Sep 2023, 8:10 am

Jorlcrin wrote:Glad I could help.

Yep; We've found fingerlings (and even quite large fish) up around the homestead in a really wet year, despite there not being even a gully for a few hundred metres.
On the Creek-crossings after the floods have abated, we'd even see fish as large as 4 inches long; heading upstream.
[But the majority of them were small fingerlings.]

Thanks this gives me a better picture about Lagoons and dams in general. I have a good handle on hunting but poor knowledge on fishing in general . I am building an offline database on inland fishing so this now helps me understand better how to treat lagoons on the map . I use Google Earth to look back in time and see if a water body is permanent or not , how badly it dried out in drought years etc. I can also pick where the deepest water holes are along certain rivers . Then if it's say a good river having certain species of fish I then look for the points of access to suitable fishing and camping spots in State Forests , Regional parks , State Recreation reserves , Camp grounds , TSR's , etc. map all the access tracks , drain crossings bad spots on tracks , potential flood areas etc. etc .
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Re: Question for Experienced Bushy

Post by JohnV » 08 Sep 2023, 8:10 am

Next question .
If a Traveling Stock Reserve (route) (TSR) is within the boundary of a private property is there any common law right of way access to that TSR by the most direct route across the private land ?
I have seen TSR signs on gates that are part of a private property boundary after I mapped the TSR boundary and was confused but after looking at the possible access it was the only way into the TSR . I guess most property owners won't want to touch this question with a 10 foot pole . Lol.
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Re: Question for Experienced Bushy

Post by Gamerancher » 08 Sep 2023, 10:03 am

While you can use TSR's for some recreational pursuits, there are a lot of restrictions that apply.
One of which is that you are actually not supposed to camp on a TSR in NSW.
Look up Local Land Services.
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Re: Question for Experienced Bushy

Post by JohnV » 08 Sep 2023, 12:08 pm

Gamerancher wrote:While you can use TSR's for some recreational pursuits, there are a lot of restrictions that apply.
One of which is that you are actually not supposed to camp on a TSR in NSW.
Look up Local Land Services.

Thanks for the reply . I do know your not supposed to camp but fishing is usually ok . However I want to know about the access question which I can't find any info on . It's ok to use a TSR for a council garbage dump , a council depot , a road base and toxic tar dump , a toxic waste site , also plow it up for crops and also dumping of illegal garbage goes unpunished but it's taboo and oh so damaging to the environment to camp for a few days . This country is run by lunatics and criminals in many places of power .
The real reason they ban camping is to make the pay camp sites and caravan parks etc . profitable . There is a few enlightened councils that have set up free campsites on TSR's renamed as local reserves . We need to start a new movement called , " Unlock Australia " where we can pressure and prosecute Government to unlock commons , rights of way , TSR's , National Parks etc to full public use because the public own the land not the bloody Politicians or the filthy Greenies . Once when I lived at Gunnedah I discovered a common that was all padlocked off and the council would not do anything about it because the land owner next door doing it was a council alderman so I went to the State Government and got it opened .
Land owners are not blameless here either because I see many many instances of the malicious use of drains and fencing , removing TSR signs , removing gates or moving them to hidden side roads all designed specifically to limit or stop public access when they have a legal right to do so if it's not leased . I would say there is about 2000 land owners in NSW that have illegally fenced of TSR land as their own for their own use . Do you get free land from the Government ?
But don't you ever camp for a few days because that's a real criminal act . Not having a go at you personally .
Here is an example of fence and gate bastardization to confuse and deter TSR visitor .
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Re: Question for Experienced Bushy

Post by deye243 » 09 Sep 2023, 2:01 am

OK it all depends on where you are .
It is a well known fact that pelicans and all and sundry will spread carp and oh s**t first Nations fish .......
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Re: Question for Experienced Bushy

Post by deye243 » 09 Sep 2023, 2:04 am

OK I'm
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Post by JohnV » 09 Sep 2023, 7:49 am

deye243 wrote:OK it all depends on where you are .
It is a well known fact that pelicans and all and sundry will spread carp and oh s**t first Nations fish .......

Thanks , I didn't know that about Pelicans . Interesting . I did get told by a guy once that he saw a large carp wriggling along a bore drain way out in a paddock and he shot it . The old 12 gauge fishing pole never fails . Marvelous what you learn when you ask unusual questions . If anyone out there has any good fishing spots for Murray Cod , Yellow belly etc. on reasonably easy publicly accessible places and you feel comfortable with sharing I would appreciate the GPS coordinates either Latitude and Longitude or UTM grid reference . I will add it to my database . It does help people because I have used my hunting database to help numerous people over the years to find game and ask permission in the good areas not waste a fortune in fuel in the wrong areas .
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Re: Question for Experienced Bushy

Post by Gamerancher » 11 Sep 2023, 7:26 am

I believe you can get a permit to camp, you just have to apply for one. They check if there is any stock movements heading for it and if not, you'll get permission.
The biggest problem with reserves is the way people abuse them. I'm just North of the Lachlan River in the Central West and there are a bunch of reserves both public and TSR's along it out here. The ones near towns are abused by people riding motorbikes, dumping rubbish and cutting firewood.
We have a bloke locally who has set up a permanent camp on a TSR. There's a couple of old caravans with lean-toos, a chook run, veg garden, a bunch of small sheds and he's fenced it all in. He hoisted a certain flag up a pole and is claiming that it's his right to do so. He's been there for a couple of years now, and so far the authorities haven't done a thing.
You are right about some land owners though, they do deliberately block access to rivers.
I suppose it could be due to the problems above or it may be just greed?
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Re: Question for Experienced Bushy

Post by JohnV » 11 Sep 2023, 8:35 am

Gamerancher wrote:I believe you can get a permit to camp, you just have to apply for one. They check if there is any stock movements heading for it and if not, you'll get permission.
The biggest problem with reserves is the way people abuse them. I'm just North of the Lachlan River in the Central West and there are a bunch of reserves both public and TSR's along it out here. The ones near towns are abused by people riding motorbikes, dumping rubbish and cutting firewood.
We have a bloke locally who has set up a permanent camp on a TSR. There's a couple of old caravans with lean-toos, a chook run, veg garden, a bunch of small sheds and he's fenced it all in. He hoisted a certain flag up a pole and is claiming that it's his right to do so. He's been there for a couple of years now, and so far the authorities haven't done a thing.
You are right about some land owners though, they do deliberately block access to rivers.
I suppose it could be due to the problems above or it may be just greed?

Thanks for the reply I know you are right I have seen such abuse myself but it's not all campers , it's also locals . Did you also know that several TSR's so far that I have mapped have aboriginal communes on them and quite a few permanent shacks like the one you talk about and that's quite ok for the authorities , free rent on river frontage property but if I want to camp without special permissions I am in trouble .
The reasonable person camping for a few days is the easy target to rip off some dollars but the motor bikes and rubbish dumpers are too hard to catch . There is no fairness in how the whole thing is managed . Landowners have a right to fence off a creek bank but not a riverbank . However Councils also erect those riverbank barriers in some cases . Unlock Australia . Also under common law people have the right to cross private land by the most practical and direct route to access an inland natural water body . As long as they go directly to the water and directly back they are not trespassing . How many natural waterholes , lakes and lagoons are fenced off behind locked gates ? Hundreds even thousands in NSW alone . Not saying that this is practical for every small waterhole but some of the larger ones , large Lagoons and Lakes should be accessible . Some are but many are not . My TSR mapping database , which includes , tracks , dams , waterholes , likely fishing spots etc. is now at 28000 files . You can look at the data on line but it's not mapped properly along the actual fence lines where as mine is in 95% of cases because if you get into an argument about the boundary of a certain TSR the Police will only go by the fenceline that the property owner says is his property and that's it , even if that fence is wrong . You will have to prove otherwise in court . So in cases where the TSR boundaries seem to conflict greatly with what appears to be private property I normalize the TSR boundary to the most logical fenceline based on my map reading and sat image reading skills . Without cadastral information and surveyors reports I can't do anything better but it's way better than whats online and it's offline . The main thing is going in the right gate and staying within the most obvious TSR boundary and staying away from any grey areas . Unlock Australia .
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