Rifle powder in 12G shotshell, why not?

[MassLox]

This will be my first post here, so bare with me.

recently getting into reloading and wanted to load my own 12g hunting loads, however recently discovered how impossible it is to get shotgun powder,

so I've scoured various websites looking for information regarding loading shotshell with powder intended for rifles with varying answers and caveats on each, so can someone please help me understand in as simple terms as possible, why can you not load 12g with a slow burning powder like AR2209 when people use Black Powder to much success? which is essentially a very slow burning powder. (EDIT: Ignore this comparison, I've been corrected already)

one thing I often saw was, that it will build too much pressure, too late, as in, the shot/slug will be too far down the barrel already?

does it matter the action type of the shotgun?

For example would a gas operated Buckmaster handle the pressure better than a break action?


thanks in advance for what some may consider a stupid question.

[Oldbloke]

This will be my first post here, so bare with me.

recently getting into reloading and wanted to load my own 12g hunting loads, however recently discovered how impossible it is to get shotgun powder,

so I've scoured various websites looking for information regarding loading shotshell with powder intended for rifles with varying answers and caveats on each, so can someone please help me understand in as simple terms as possible,

1. why can you not load 12g with a slow burning powder like AR2209 when people use Black Powder to much success? which is essentially a very slow burning powder.

one thing I often saw was, that it will build too much pressure, too late, as in, the shot/slug will be too far down the barrel already?

2. does it matter the action type of the shotgun?

For example would a gas operated Buckmaster handle the pressure better than a break action?

bonus question:

3. What factors determine the burn rate of a powder? grain size? could you theoretically ball mill a slow burning powder into a finer grain and use it in a shotgun?

thanks in advance for what some may consider a stupid question.

Ill attempt to answer these. But those with more knowledge may correct me.

1. Its not that simple. Shotgun powder is reletively fast, 2209 is slow. Some powders react differently when compressed like a shotgun load. Perhaps it will work, but might be dangerous or just inefficient. I wouldnt try it. Shotguns are not designed to take the same pressure that centerfire riflies.
Rifles about 55,000psi
Shotguns about 10,000psi

Wait, often powder turns up for sale. Perhaps a deceased estate.

2. Actions do vary in strength. A magnum will be stronger than a std shotgun. Black powder less strong.

3. Modifying a powder would be playing with fire. I wouldnt do it.
Its next to your head/face grinding powder i imagine would result in inconsistant burn rates. You have no way to test the burn rate. And in any case what load would you start with? What would be the max load?


As i understand the following controls burn rates.

Composition.
Grain size
Grain shape
Coatings


Suggest you stay within the manufacturers recomendations.

[Oldbloke]

Just a follow up.
Unless you already have to components its easier and cheaper to simply buy shotgun loads.

[Jackaroo]

They make rifle powder and shotgun powder for a reason, hope you find out safely why.

[on_one_wheel]

Rifle powder is much too slow for shotguns.
Shotgun powder is similar to pistol powder.

[mchughcb]

Don't waste your time. Just buy the factory load you want. It will be cheaper and safer.
There can be no economic reason given how expensive and scarce powder and primers are to warrant what you are suggesting for lead loads.

[Wallaby stew]

AR2209 is far too slow burning for the 12ga, by the time it's built up enough pressure to burn itself half of it has already been blown out the barrel. Theoretically it might work if your barrel was four feet long. I've often wondered why AR2205 can't be used as it's the same or similar to IMR4227 which has a similar burn rate to DuPont #2 which was created to substitute black powder which is used in 12ga. For some reason AR2205 doesn't like a large capacity case which is why it's mainly used in small cases, 25/20, .22 hornet, and most pistol cases.
AR2209 is way to slow for what you want.

[deye243]

I have no Idea where you get Idea that black powder is one of the slowest Burning it is actually one of the fastest there is It literally explodes it is why it is not called a propellet .
And comparing it to 2209 is like Comparing a twelve foot dinghy two a hundred and fifty foot super yacht

[Wallaby stew]

I have no Idea where you get Idea that black powder is one of the slowest Burning it is actually one of the fastest there is It literally explodes it is why it is not called a propellet .
And comparing it to 2209 is like Comparing a twelve foot dinghy two a hundred and fifty foot super yacht

Yes that was definitely a comparison I made and it was that AR2209 is far too slow, nowhere did I say black powder is slow. Your finger jumped in too quick.

[bladeracer]

This will be my first post here, so bare with me.

recently getting into reloading and wanted to load my own 12g hunting loads, however recently discovered how impossible it is to get shotgun powder,

so I've scoured various websites looking for information regarding loading shotshell with powder intended for rifles with varying answers and caveats on each, so can someone please help me understand in as simple terms as possible, why can you not load 12g with a slow burning powder like AR2209 when people use Black Powder to much success? which is essentially a very slow burning powder.

one thing I often saw was, that it will build too much pressure, too late, as in, the shot/slug will be too far down the barrel already?

does it matter the action type of the shotgun?

For example would a gas operated Buckmaster handle the pressure better than a break action?

bonus question:
What factors determine the burn rate of a powder? grain size? could you theoretically ball mill a slow burning powder into a finer grain and use it in a shotgun?

thanks in advance for what some may consider a stupid question.

I think AR2209 will be far too slow for the shotgun. The shot/slug is propelled down the barrel at about 12,000psi, half the pressure generated by a .22LR cartridge. There is little resistance to allow the powder to burn before the shot has left the muzzle. If I were going to experiment with rifle powder I would use AR2207 or possibly AR2206H.

I don't think a rifle powder will generate enough pressure to be a concern, unless you used a slug larger than the bore diameter so it would obturate to fill the bore, but then the barrel will burst as it's not designed for anywhere near that level of pressure.

Grain size and shape does play a role in burn rate, but also the various coatings applied to the powder. I have no idea about grinding up powder to increase the burn rate, but I definitely would not do it in a shotgun designed to operate at very, very low pressure compared to rifle cartridges.

The simplest and cheapest way to tailor your own shotshells is to buy bulk loads (about $130/250), open up the crimp, empty out the #7-1/2 shot and put in shot, BB's, buck or a slug as required. You can go further and disassemble the loads then adjust powder charges to find a specific velocity using the original powder.

[bladeracer]

I have no Idea where you get Idea that black powder is one of the slowest Burning it is actually one of the fastest there is It literally explodes it is why it is not called a propellent .
And comparing it to 2209 is like Comparing a twelve foot dinghy two a hundred and fifty foot super yacht

Yes that was definitely a comparison I made and it was that AR2209 is far too slow, nowhere did I say black powder is slow. Your finger jumped in too quick.

He was responding to the original poster's comments.

[mickb]

There are obscure branches and experimental levels of reloading that deal with this at least for slugs anyway, but its not something a novice can pull off, or even 99% of experienced reloaders.

I know the now discontinued and ancient SR4759 could be stuffed into shotshells to various levels of power, some blokes were turning their slug guns into poor man's elephant guns with it. This was a very special powder though and doesnt relate directly to rifle powders.

Where I would ask is shotgunworld forums, survivalistboards, also castboolits forum. Search a bloke called Outpost75 - the guy is actually the author C.E Harris, probably one of the worlds most experienced cast bullet loaders and was a former consultant for Ruger. He's in his 80's these days Id say, but still posts all over the place. https://www.coltforum.com/threads/outpo ... rd.400527/

[deye243]

This will be my first post here, so bare with me.

recently getting into reloading and wanted to load my own 12g hunting loads, however recently discovered how impossible it is to get shotgun powder,

so I've scoured various websites looking for information regarding loading shotshell with powder intended for rifles with varying answers and caveats on each, so can someone please help me understand in as simple terms as possible, why can you not load 12g with a slow burning powder like AR2209 when people use Black Powder to much success? which is essentially a very slow burning powder.

one thing I often saw was, that it will build too much pressure, too late, as in, the shot/slug will be too far down the barrel already?

does it matter the action type of the shotgun?

For example would a gas operated Buckmaster handle the pressure better than a break action?

bonus question:
What factors determine the burn rate of a powder? grain size? could you theoretically ball mill a slow burning powder into a finer grain and use it in a shotgun?

thanks in advance for what some may consider a stupid question.

I have no Idea where you get Idea that black powder is one of the slowest Burning it is actually one of the fastest there is It literally explodes it is why it is not called a propellent .
And comparing it to 2209 is like Comparing a twelve foot dinghy two a hundred and fifty foot super yacht

Yes that was definitely a comparison I made and it was that AR2209 is far too slow, nowhere did I say black powder is slow. Your finger jumped in too quick.

I have no Idea where you get Idea that black powder is one of the slowest Burning it is actually one of the fastest there is It literally explodes it is why it is not called a propellent .
And comparing it to 2209 is like Comparing a twelve foot dinghy two a hundred and fifty foot super yacht

Yes that was definitely a comparison I made and it was that AR2209 is far too slow, nowhere did I say black powder is slow. Your finger jumped in too quick.

He was responding to the original poster's comments.

Yep

[MassLox]

I have no Idea where you get Idea that black powder is one of the slowest Burning it is actually one of the fastest there is It literally explodes it is why it is not called a propellet .
And comparing it to 2209 is like Comparing a twelve foot dinghy two a hundred and fifty foot super yacht

Mental slip up, I was typing and thinking fast on my break at work.