new to reloading - Powder and Projectile Q's

Reloading equipment, methods, load data, powder and projectile information.

new to reloading - Powder and Projectile Q's

Post by Zappa » 11 Jul 2024, 9:30 pm

Ive finally decided to load my own 9mm ammo as Ive been shooting quite a bit lately and it makes sense to me anyway.

Doing some research on powders and projectiles, and the myriad of options. I have no issue reading load data but how do I decide for instance on the half dozen ADI powders ? When I click on the 'pistol powders" on the ADI site it takes me directly to the load data sheets.

I was hoping to read the difference between AP350, APS450, AP70, APS950, AP30, AP50 etc..

and projectiles.. what weight projectiles do I choose? I mainly shoot Service at the club. Possibly IPSC later on.

Also are there any good books or website to read for a totally newbie like me? I intend to keep all my fingers, my face and my pistols intact :D
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Re: new to reloading - Powder and Projectile Q's

Post by bladeracer » 11 Jul 2024, 11:26 pm

Zappa wrote:Ive finally decided to load my own 9mm ammo as Ive been shooting quite a bit lately and it makes sense to me anyway.

Doing some research on powders and projectiles, and the myriad of options. I have no issue reading load data but how do I decide for instance on the half dozen ADI powders ? When I click on the 'pistol powders" on the ADI site it takes me directly to the load data sheets.

I was hoping to read the difference between AP350, APS450, AP70, APS950, AP30, AP50 etc..

and projectiles.. what weight projectiles do I choose? I mainly shoot Service at the club. Possibly IPSC later on.

Also are there any good books or website to read for a totally newbie like me? I intend to keep all my fingers, my face and my pistols intact :D


If you don't already have those powders don't bother looking, they haven't been made for almost four years now. The only one you might find is APS950 as some came onto the market last month. ADI stated a few months ago that they are testing the new single-base Trailboss, and they managed to make a batch of APS950 this year, so hopefully we'll see the other APS-series quite soon now.

If you look at the load data you should find that the faster powders tend to to be better suited to the lighter bullets and the slower powders are better for heavier bullets. The APS/AP/AS series are logically numerical, the higher the number the slower they are - that doesn't apply with the AR series rifle powders. Data is generally only shown for the more optimal powders for a specific chambering, but other powders that aren't listed can usually be made to work with varying degrees of success.

Your best bet for powders currently is scavenging it from 12ga. field loads but you should be able to find imports of Vectan, Lovex or Vihtavuori pistol powders around still, though they are expensive so you might prefer to stick with factory ammo.

For projectiles, I generally choose bullets, they're usually the best type of projectile for the job ;-) Choice depends on what you're aiming for. For ISSF-style target shooting my understanding is you want to minimise recoil so loads are generally light, so light bullets at low-ish velocities, but with semi-auto pistols you are limited to some degree as you need to make enough pressure to cycle the action. I preferred 147gn and 124gn bullets when I was shooting IPSC but some prefer 115gn bullets, though you can go even lighter than that. You'll also need to decide whether you want to, or are allowed to, run jacketed, plated, copper/brass bullets or have to stick with cast bullets only - my club only allows cast and has apparently had frame damage from hardcast powder-coated bullets.

The biggest annoyance with load development for handguns is having to go to a club to test them, so I would probably load 20 or 25 of each of several charges from a starting load to a "max" load and test them for accuracy, velocity and reliability. But expect to be pulling down any that either don't cycle in the pistol or show signs of pressure. Or get a hand press and load them at the club, if they allow you to. A rifled chamber adapter allows you to do the main load development in a 12ga. gun, on private property so that's a good option.
Last edited by bladeracer on 12 Jul 2024, 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: new to reloading - Powder and Projectile Q's

Post by Oldbloke » 12 Jul 2024, 1:06 am

You can download the ADI pdf manual here.
Much easier than online
https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowle ... +data.html
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Re: new to reloading - Powder and Projectile Q's

Post by Oldbloke » 12 Jul 2024, 1:17 am

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Re: new to reloading - Powder and Projectile Q's

Post by wanneroo » 12 Jul 2024, 3:41 am

I am a prolific 9mm reloader. On my Youtube channel, Wanneroo, I have done tons of 9mm projects and will be doing more soon. This year I have gradually been testing all small pistol primers that I can get and comparing them. Some of the powders I use are harder to get in Australia, however I will be doing some Vihtavouri and Lovex(known as Shooters World here) 9mm videos at some point, experimenting with those powders and bullets. Typically I use common FMJ and thick plated bullets for my projects with 3 main weights, 115g, 124g and 147g.

I love reloading 9mm. A lot of people say it's dumb and not cost effective but then they are the ones complaining when the next shortage hits and I am still reloading and shooting with no worries.

115g bullets I would say are fine for general target shooting. 124g is good for velocity. 147g is good for steel targets and knocking them down.

9mm is not difficult to reload or work up a powder load for. A Lee 4 die set for it works fine, although I now use some Redding dies.

If you have specific questions feel free to ask.
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Re: new to reloading - Powder and Projectile Q's

Post by Oldbloke » 12 Jul 2024, 11:13 am

Consider this. Fast powders suitable for pistols are scarce ATM. This is not the first time components have been difficult to buy in AU. But in time it comes good.

If I were you I would come up with a list of equipment and components you need to start out. Then just slowly buy the gear, used or new as they become available at the right price. Then once powders become available again you can make a start.
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Re: new to reloading - Powder and Projectile Q's

Post by Oldbloke » 12 Jul 2024, 11:15 am

This thread may help.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13453
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Re: new to reloading - Powder and Projectile Q's

Post by Zappa » 12 Jul 2024, 11:35 am

All very good info and appreciate the links.
I've been shooting for a while and have been lurking here a bit. The last powder scarcity I remember was with covid not mention the primers.
So what's causing the powder scarcity right now? Would the new products from ADI alleviate some of that ? Is it an import regulation issue? Has there ever been an abundance of powder enough to satisfy the market demands ? Ever ?
Conspiracy buffs might say that the government is restricting the supply so that people don't stock up.
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Re: new to reloading - Powder and Projectile Q's

Post by Oldbloke » 12 Jul 2024, 11:46 am

ADI fast powder shortage is due to a new line they built was not fit for purpose. Must be 4 abt years now since they made any.

There are several threads here about it.

As far as i know it wasn't an issue prior to that.

Other shortages are since covid and Ukraine.
AU is near the bottom of the pile when it comes to reloading stuff. We are only a small market. I think its worse in NZ.
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Re: new to reloading - Powder and Projectile Q's

Post by bladeracer » 12 Jul 2024, 12:26 pm

Zappa wrote:All very good info and appreciate the links.
I've been shooting for a while and have been lurking here a bit. The last powder scarcity I remember was with covid not mention the primers.
So what's causing the powder scarcity right now? Would the new products from ADI alleviate some of that ? Is it an import regulation issue? Has there ever been an abundance of powder enough to satisfy the market demands ? Ever ?
Conspiracy buffs might say that the government is restricting the supply so that people don't stock up.


As Oldbloke says, ADI screwed up. It seems the government wanted ADI to move away from double-base powders (which use nitroglycerine) and switch to single-base powders. All of their fastest powders - the AP/AS series - used for pistol and shotgun loading were double-base so all had to be reformulated, and will never be made again. They amalgamated the two series' into one line, the APS series of powders. But this required a new production line. This seems to be where they screwed the pooch. Instead of setting up a new line alongside the existing line, they replaced the existing double-base line with the new single-base line, so there was no way to revert if it failed, which it did. Initially they were able to produce some APS powders, and get them to market, but they soon discovered issues with the quality control of the new processes, shut down production, destroyed tons of powder, and concentrated on rifle powders while trying to sort the issues, probably an easy decision under covid lockdowns. My _guess_ is that the cost and red tape involved in setting up an additional production line is what caused them to take this risk.

So, it's nothing to do with importation regs, or wars, or the government trying to stop us from shooting, it was a poor management decision by Thales/ADI, probably for cost reasons.

There is an outlier though in AR2205. This is ADI's fastest rifle powder, fast enough that it is also useful in many pistol chamberings. It's single-base so should have been entirely unaffected by this situation. However, it also disappeared from the market at about the same time. Their are fairly credible reports that it is still in production (though perhaps not to the standard required for our consumer market) as it is used in the boosting charge of some ordnance systems, mainly mortars I think. Several people, including myself, have asked ADI several times about AR2205 without receiving any response.

Yes, there were no issues with pistol/shotshell powder supplies up until around 2020 when ADI had this situation. Covid exacerbated it by making importation of other suitable powders almost impossible until last year when at least three companies started bringing in small imports of pistol powders from Europe off their own bats, and at great expense, which is why they're so expensive. There has been some disruption to ADI's rifle powders as well but to a much lesser extent, their common rifle powders have remained in production throughout. I believe there have been distribution issues caused by changes in some states regarding transporting smokeless powders so all powder can be difficult to get in some places, you may have to travel.

Now, on top of this, it was reported two months ago that China and Russia have stopped exporting their production of nitrocellulose, which is the major component of smokeless powders. Alliant were the first I'm aware of to publicly announce that this would significantly affect their production of powders. Thailand and India are also large producers of nitrocellulose (it's used in inks and paints as well) so I would think there is a source there outside of Chinese/Russian sanctions but whether they can supply the huge amounts needed by powder manufacturers around the world seems unlikely.

Primer shortages started around 2021 I think, with a dearth of pistol primers across the country, and in many places overseas. That didn't really matter here once it became apparent that we didn't have pistol powders anyway. But production ramped up in other countries and quickly sorted that. Then we saw a lack of small rifle primers in 2022, and then large rifle primers in 2023 became scarce. Small rifle are back on shelves but large rifle are still difficult to get. What you might find is product we haven't seen here before, imported from South America and Europe. But reports from the US indicate that primer production is picking up so hopefully it won't be a problem for much longer. If ADI is able to get the APS powders back online everything will be honky dory again :-)

I forgot to mention rimfire ammo. .22LR ammo started seeing supply issues around 2021 as well, due to lack of import, probably due to time/cost factors under covid lockdowns around the world. Last year we started seeing imports of .22LR ammo we hadn't seen before, like Aguila, and some manufacturers still aren't being imported, Federal for example I haven't seen for some years. The manufacturers have made statements that they are producing more .22LR ammo than has ever been made before but it still isn't enough for demand. It's possible that demand soared under covid, especially in the US, with lots and lots of people deciding they needed to get into shooting, and they needed to stockpile enough ammo to see them through any future disruptions to society. But I think the supply of .22LR ammo here has mostly settled. I'm about to order some more cases so I'll find out next week I guess :-)
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Re: new to reloading - Powder and Projectile Q's

Post by Zappa » 12 Jul 2024, 4:16 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Your best bet for powders currently is scavenging it from 12ga. field loads but you should be able to find imports of Vectan, Lovex or Vihtavuori pistol powders around still, though they are expensive so you might prefer to stick with factory ammo.


So any particular 12ga cartridge for pistol ? and what do you do with the shell ? throw into the next bonfire or soak them in a vat of used engine oil? :lol:

Oldbloke wrote:ADI fast powder shortage is due to a new line they built was not fit for purpose. Must be 4 abt years now since they made any.


4 years? Reading into that, the commercial market in OZ might not be big enough for them to spend the big R&D dollars. Let''s hope the imported powder comes down in price to make it all that more worthy and enjoyable.

I've ordered a Lee Challenger Anniv. kit from ozgun and the 9mm dies. Probably going to pickup a digital scale to go alongside the Lee weight one. So Im really looking forward to load development and filling up the brass with match stick heads. :roll:
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Re: new to reloading - Powder and Projectile Q's

Post by bladeracer » 12 Jul 2024, 4:57 pm

Zappa wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
Your best bet for powders currently is scavenging it from 12ga. field loads but you should be able to find imports of Vectan, Lovex or Vihtavuori pistol powders around still, though they are expensive so you might prefer to stick with factory ammo.


So any particular 12ga cartridge for pistol ? and what do you do with the shell ? throw into the next bonfire or soak them in a vat of used engine oil? :lol:

Oldbloke wrote:ADI fast powder shortage is due to a new line they built was not fit for purpose. Must be 4 abt years now since they made any.


4 years? Reading into that, the commercial market in OZ might not be big enough for them to spend the big R&D dollars. Let''s hope the imported powder comes down in price to make it all that more worthy and enjoyable.

I've ordered a Lee Challenger Anniv. kit from ozgun and the 9mm dies. Probably going to pickup a digital scale to go alongside the Lee weight one. So Im really looking forward to load development and filling up the brass with match stick heads. :roll:



If you look through 12ga. load data you'll see that the powders used in similar loads will be of similar specification, so anything from 1oz birdshot loads is likely to be just fine in pistol cartridges, and to make it cheap enough just buy 250rd slabs of Field loads, usually 1oz of #7-1/2 shot. The last two slabs I bought cost me $130 each. For $130 you get about 20-22gn of powder (5000-5500gn) and an ounce of hard shot per shell. You'll also have 250 new hulls (as long as you don't damage them), 250 shotcup/wads and 250 209 primers. If you can find somebody still loading shotshells you might be able to sell the primed hulls and wads to make a bit back, perhaps for primer value. But, $130 (plus whatever you're paying for primers - probably over $200/1000) gets you enough powder for about 800-1000rds (of 9mm/.32S&W/.38Sp and such), and 7kg of shot to cast about 650-1000 bullets from (depending on bullet weight). Light loads with light bullets will probably cost you somewhere around 25 cents apiece doing it this way (plus some time breaking down 12ga. and casting your bullets), or significantly less if you can on-sell your primed hulls. Or you can pay $250-$300 for a kilo (15,000gn) of imported powder, and pay $200-odd for 1000 cast bullets. Or just buy factory 9mm for about 70 cents a round?

There have been several imports of pistol powders now and no sign of prices coming down, probably largely due to them being fairly small imports.

Do you have a CatA licence? You probably won't be able to buy or possess shotshells if you only hold a CatH licence.

I use the Lee press and it does me just fine, though it is slow relative to a progressive press. I like being able to confirm each step of the loading process though so don't need progressive.
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Re: new to reloading - Powder and Projectile Q's

Post by Zappa » 12 Jul 2024, 5:39 pm

bladeracer wrote: and 7kg of shot to cast about 650-1000 bullets from (depending on bullet weight). Light loads with light bullets will probably cost you somewhere around 25 cents apiece doing it this way (plus some time breaking down 12ga. and casting your bullets)


Never thought of that. Sweet. I'll add a bullet cast to the shopping list. My late father in law a keen fisherman gave me about 10 - 15kg of sinkers which will do nicely for another 1000 rounds. :thumbsup:
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Re: new to reloading - Powder and Projectile Q's

Post by bladeracer » 12 Jul 2024, 6:45 pm

Zappa wrote:
bladeracer wrote: and 7kg of shot to cast about 650-1000 bullets from (depending on bullet weight). Light loads with light bullets will probably cost you somewhere around 25 cents apiece doing it this way (plus some time breaking down 12ga. and casting your bullets)


Never thought of that. Sweet. I'll add a bullet cast to the shopping list. My late father in law a keen fisherman gave me about 10 - 15kg of sinkers which will do nicely for another 1000 rounds. :thumbsup:


Lee bullet moulds are about $70 I think. CBE do really nice brass moulds but are very expensive compared to Lee.
https://www.castbulletengineering.com.au/products/pistol-moulds/35-and-9mm-cal

I started with a stainless steel ladle and a gas torch but Lyman do a very nice ladle with a pour spout that I use with a MAP gas torch when doing small batches of bullets for testing.
Lyman lead dipper.jpg
Lyman lead dipper.jpg (34.96 KiB) Viewed 5220 times


You'll also need some Lee Alox lube or powdercoat if you'd rather PC your bullets. Some of the Lee sizing die sets come with Alox or dealers should have it for about $15.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/185038280547

To powercoat instead you'll need a toaster oven, but they're pretty cheap.
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Re: new to reloading - Powder and Projectile Q's

Post by Oldbloke » 12 Jul 2024, 7:58 pm

The reason they wanted to develop a single base powder was a wish to use powder that was less ignition sensitive. The idea was to prevent "chain reactions" during war on ships etc. Well that's my understanding.
Also,
My understanding is that the decision to dismantle the old line was a "political " (the Defence Minister) decision. ADI had no say in it.

Oops, I'd steer away from cheap digital scales. Buy a decent beam balance.
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Re: new to reloading - Powder and Projectile Q's

Post by Oldbloke » 12 Jul 2024, 8:01 pm

Cast bullets? Try blackwidow.

http://blackwidowprojectiles.com.au/
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Re: new to reloading - Powder and Projectile Q's

Post by deye243 » 12 Jul 2024, 8:57 pm

Oldbloke wrote:The reason they wanted to develop a single base powder was a wish to use powder that was less ignition sensitive. The idea was to prevent "chain reactions" during war on ships etc. Well that's my understanding.
Also,

EU bs on toxicity
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Re: new to reloading - Powder and Projectile Q's

Post by deye243 » 12 Jul 2024, 9:00 pm

Just be mindful that shot is full of antimony and arsenic so pretty toxic so do it in a ventilated area which has its own problems in keeping the pot at a constant temp .
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Post by bladeracer » 12 Jul 2024, 9:16 pm

deye243 wrote:Just be mindful that shot is full of antimony and arsenic so pretty toxic so do it in a ventilated area which has its own problems in keeping the pot at a constant temp .


I wouldn't say "full of", probably a couple of percent, but lead itself can make you pretty crook so you should always be well ventilated when casting.
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Post by Zappa » 12 Jul 2024, 9:42 pm

The more Im reading up on the fast burn powder scarcity the more depressed i become. Cleavers has a pre-order open for APS950 ' due in August' but I'm not holding my breath, as i doubt we'll see much will trickle down South.
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Re: new to reloading - Powder and Projectile Q's

Post by bladeracer » 12 Jul 2024, 10:16 pm

Zappa wrote:The more Im reading up on the fast burn powder scarcity the more depressed i become. Cleavers has a pre-order open for APS950 ' due in August' but I'm not holding my breath, as i doubt we'll see much will trickle down South.


Have you considered getting a revolver, like .357Mag? You could probably load that with AR2207 which is still available, the longer the barrel the better it would work as it gives more time to burn more of the powder. I haven't tried AR2207 in 9mm but I did try AR2206H and it only made around 500fps so it wouldn't operate a semi-auto. The .357 would hold a lot more than the 12gn of AR2206H I shoe-horned into the 9mm so would likely make sufficient velocity for target shooting.
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Re: new to reloading - Powder and Projectile Q's

Post by Oldbloke » 13 Jul 2024, 8:26 am

Casting in a well ventilated area is fine. It's not like it's your 40hr a week job. Don't be put off by the naysayers. A lot of scarmongering by uneducated do gooders on the internet.

Under the back varrander or open a couple of shed doors.

Or just buy them, cheap as chips.
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Re: new to reloading - Powder and Projectile Q's

Post by Zappa » 13 Jul 2024, 10:07 am

bladeracer wrote: Have you considered getting a revolver, like .357Mag?


Funny you should mention that, I've been actually looking for a .357 Ruger GP100 but in a 4 inch barrel. For reasons other than I've never owned a revolver and would like first hand experience and use it as my backup. Most guys in my club shoot revolvers albeit 6 inches and above for the 50 meter comp. I reckon I could do well with the shorter barrel. But now bringing up the possibility of using rifle powder, has me thinking.

btw, if anyone has a GP100 that want to sell - msg me. 8-)

Oldbloke wrote:Casting in a well ventilated area is fine. It's not like it's your 40hr a week job. Don't be put off by the naysayers. A lot of scaremongering by uneducated do gooders on the internet.
Under the back varrander or open a couple of shed doors.
Or just buy them, cheap as chips.


The initial outlay for the casting equipment isn't that huge so I might still dabble in it and if I ever come across some lead, I'd like to get into the fun. Seems like grabbing a bucket, sieve and a shovel and heading to the range doesn't work here. Every time I ask who cleans out the berms, there's a deafening silence or i get 'ask the Pres'. :lol:

I have just the spot for it in my 3-sided outdoor gazebo and I can use my FIL's camp stove.

But good link on the https://blackwidowprojectiles.com.au/. definitely bookmark him.
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Re: new to reloading - Powder and Projectile Q's

Post by bladeracer » 13 Jul 2024, 2:59 pm

Zappa wrote:
bladeracer wrote: Have you considered getting a revolver, like .357Mag?


Funny you should mention that, I've been actually looking for a .357 Ruger GP100 but in a 4 inch barrel. For reasons other than I've never owned a revolver and would like first hand experience and use it as my backup. Most guys in my club shoot revolvers albeit 6 inches and above for the 50 meter comp. I reckon I could do well with the shorter barrel. But now bringing up the possibility of using rifle powder, has me thinking.

btw, if anyone has a GP100 that want to sell - msg me. 8-)

Oldbloke wrote:Casting in a well ventilated area is fine. It's not like it's your 40hr a week job. Don't be put off by the naysayers. A lot of scaremongering by uneducated do gooders on the internet.
Under the back varrander or open a couple of shed doors.
Or just buy them, cheap as chips.


The initial outlay for the casting equipment isn't that huge so I might still dabble in it and if I ever come across some lead, I'd like to get into the fun. Seems like grabbing a bucket, sieve and a shovel and heading to the range doesn't work here. Every time I ask who cleans out the berms, there's a deafening silence or i get 'ask the Pres'. :lol:

I have just the spot for it in my 3-sided outdoor gazebo and I can use my FIL's camp stove.

But good link on the https://blackwidowprojectiles.com.au/. definitely bookmark him.


I was shooting a Ruger Security Six this morning, six-inch barrel. I asked about the loads but nobody knows as they get them loaded in Melbourne for the club. The assumption is that it's a Trailboss load. I have plenty of .38 loaded up but don't really want to run my rifle handloads through somebody else's pistol. I had a dodgy round with the primer sticking out so I brought it home to disassemble to find out what it is exactly. If it is a TB load I can replicate it myself and would happily shoot them if they allow it. There is no danger with TB as even filling the case to the top would still only make a low-pressure load. My 124gn cast load runs just under 1000fps out of a 24" barrel so I would expect they'd be fairly light in the revolver.

I have some Sellier et Bellot 158gn cast RN factory that is rated at 1000fps in a 190mm barrel, so I figured I'd grab a case of that but they reckon that might be too hot for target shooting. I'll take some in next time and try it and see if they're happy for me to run it. The shooting area at the club is under cover so I doubt my chrono would work there, but I'll ask if I can shoot further down the range just to chrono some loads, they have no idea what velocity their club loads make.

I don't think clubs are allowed to let contaminated soil off the property so they have to employ contractors to do the clean-up. I mainly recover my .22LR bullets (practicing at home) for casting, but also use lead shot, recovered jacketed bullets and lead flashing (from Bunnings) hardened with 60/40 solder. The very best way to recover your bullets is to shoot into rubber as the bullets are entirely intact and simply drop into a tray at the bottom, nice and clean. Recovering them from the clay berms I use a metal detector, but the bullets are absolutely filthy with dirt compacted into the lead. I melt those in a big cast iron pot so I can scrape the crud off the top and pour them into clean ingots (cupcake trays).

The simplest/cheapest way to cast bullets requires just a stainless steel ladle, a bullet mould, a gas torch, and a tray to tumble lube the bullets with Alox - I use the lid off a Lee die set. Getting a bottom-pour pot is good as it regulates the temperature better than you can with the torch. With the torch sometimes you might have to wait a little while for the alloy to cool enough to harden, with the pot they harden in seconds so you can throw a lot of bullets in an hour session. But to regulate the temp and pressure I top up the pot after every few pours to keep the alloy level at a consistent height, as the level gets low I find the alloy gets a lot hotter.

If you tumble lube them you need to let the lube set, if you powder-coat instead you can start loading ammo as soon as you finish casting your bullets.

I generally try to avoid sizing my bullets, and I prefer to have them as fat as possible.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
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bladeracer
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