Testing 44 mag factory ammo speeds

[mickb]

Not sure if I ever posted this here, have put it up in a few sites.

Test gun was 20" barrel Rossi 1892 lever action in 44 mag.

Chrony was a prochrono- 5 yards from the barrel and then a Garmin C-1

Ranked in order of Kinetic Energy, weakest to strongest.

Blazer 240 grain JHP
Box velocity 1200fps.
Rossi 20" Carbine: 1259, 1298, 1309fps. Average: 1288fps
Winchester 24" Rifle:
Gain :88fps
Kinetic Energy 884ftlbs
Notes: Very underpowered, essentially like 44 special in a carbine. This was by far the lightest load tested. I knew when it went off it was low power as kick felt more like a 357 mag. Not sure what the real velocity from a pistol would be, probably subsonic.

Sellier and Bellot 240gnSP
Box velocity 1181fps
Rossi Carbine: 1546, 1574, 1564. Average: 1561fps
Gain: 380fps
Kinetic Energy: 1298ftlbs
Notes: Light load for 44 mag. I knew when this went off it was not full 44 power. it paralells load tests I did with 357 sellier bellot 158 grain bullets last year( which chronied slow, about 1500fps too).

Federal Premium 240grain Hydrashok Personal Defence
Box velocity: 1210fps
Rossi Carbine: 1648, 1640, 1656. Average: 1648fps
Gain: 438fps
Kinetic Energy: 1447ftlbs
Notes: This felt more like 44 mag should be. The velocity was not overly high, perhaps being a personal defence ammo choice its loaded with faster burning powder to make a handgun less blasty?

Geco 240gn Softppint
Box Velocity:1460fps
Rossi Carbine: 1709, 1687, 1683. Average 1693fps
Gain: 233fps
Kinetic Energy: 1527ftlbs
Notes: Such loads around 1700fps with 240 grain are what I consider 44 mag full power.

Federal American Eagle 240gn JHP
Box velocity: 1230fps
Rossi Carbine: 1687, 1696, 1698fps. Average: 1693fps
Gain : 463fps
Kinetic Energy : 1529ftlbs

PPU 240gn JHP
Box Velocity: 1541fps
Rossi Carbine: 1720, 1724, 1713. Average: 1719fps
Gain : 178fps
Kinetic Energy: 1575ftlbs
Notes: Noticed more recoil at this level. Like with the Geco not sure what they tested the box velocity in, as 1541 fps is over max for a pistol, yet well under normal carbine power. I think the box claims need to be taken with a grain of salt or they are using some wierd barrel length like 12" for their tests

Winchester Bigbore 240 grain HP
Box Velocity: 1485fps
Rossi Carbine: 1728, 1720, 1756. Average: 1736fps
Gain : 251fps
Kinetic energy : 1606ftlbs
Notes: Consistent velocities, low extreme spreads.

PMC bronze 240 TCSP
Box Velocity: 1497fps
Rossi Carbine: 1700, 1763, 1756. Average 1739fps
Gain : 242fps
Kinetic Energy: 1612ftlbs
Notes: Another ammo where the box claim doesnt really match pistol speeds nor cabine speeds, sort of sits in the middle. Manufacturers likely using their own length special pressure barrels for testing

Magtech 240 SJSP
Box Velocity: 1180fps
Rossi Carbine: 1766, 1782, 1756. Average 1768fps
Gain: 588fps
Kinetic Energy: 1666ftlbs.
Note, not that I have tried it but I know two blokes who dont like this ammo due to poor expansion at range. Test it yourselves.

Hornady 225 FTX
Box Velocity: 1410fps
Rossi Carbine: 1875, 1846, 1834. Average: 1851fps
Gain: 441fps
Kinetic Energy: 1712ftlbs
Notes: Noticeably more powerful. Recoil was greater than most of the 240 grain loads. Hornadies box velocity from a pistol marries up with the added gain from a carbine, 441fps.


Hornady 200 XTP factory custom
Box velocity: 1500fps
Rossi Carbine: 1996, 2002, 2014. Average 2004 fps
Gain : 504fps
Kinetic Energy : 1783ftlbs
Notes: When this went off I knew it was stout as despite being a lighter bullet recoil was similar to heavy 240 grain loads. Hornadys box velocity marries up with the carbine speed, 500fps increase for the longer barrel. Consistent ammo, tight spreads, my Rossi likes this ammo the most, shot about 2.5" group at 100 yards.

Remington UMC 180 Grain JSP
Box velocity: 1610fps.
Rossi Carbine: 2133, 2154, 2168. Average :2152fps
Gain : 542fps
Kinetic Energy : 1851ftlbs!
Notes: A lot of power in this little offering, equalling top handloads.

Hornady Custom 240gn XTP
Box Velocity: 1350fps
Rossi Carbine: 1914, 1926, 1914fps, 1785fps Average 1884fps
Gain : 534fps
Kinetic Energy : 1892ftlbs
Notes: Very High power but I found it can throw as many as 1 shot in 5 or 6 as 1780fps, which is an extreme spread of 120fps or so. I told Hornady about it as other users on youtube were showing the same result, and wont use this ammo anymore myself. Not that it wont work, but its a bit sloppy for the premium price. For the record the 200 grain XTP Hornady custom load before it in the list has much tighter spreads.

The heavyweight champ to date:
Fiocchi 240 grain SJSP
Box Velocity
Rossi Carbine: 1891, 1912, 1908, 1917, 1910. Average 1908 fps
Kinetic Energy: 1940ftlbs!
Notes: Most powerful found, suprising power from a cheaper ammo and very tight extreme spread of only 25fps! This equals or exceeds top handloads possible. Note I havent tried this SJSP in the field but it has a generous wide flat point -Im betting it sets up some slap damage when it hits. Not sure how well it expands but might be worth a look.


Findings.
A lot of power variance between different ammo types. Some are twice the power of others. This is where people can get disgruntled. A bloke hunting with Blazer or S&B for example will be dissappointed the 44 isnt living up to its name.

The velocity on the packet is meant to equate pistol velocities but it sometimes sits in between what you would expect for pistol and carbine speeds. Obviously manufacturers use their own length pressure barrels, take whats on the box with a grain of salt in other words.

44 bullet types have different expansion characteristics. The yanks who shoot big game with handguns, dont mind drilling holes through an elk and following it up. Aussies often prefer more positive expansion and faster kills on mobs. Do your homework on the bullets you choose.

[bigrich]

thanks for posting that , very informative . you REALLY like 44mag i suspect . further posts on bullet performance in the field would be appreciated . have you used the 30-30 much on game to form a performance comparison between it and the 44mag ? cheers

[Wapiti]

We use that Fiocci ammo in the Blackhawk pistol around the paddocks, and man it hits hard.
Hits in the hand too, just quietly.
Have no idea what the velocity is in a 5-1/2" barrel, but to us who cares, we aren't using velocity in a ballistics calculator for long range drop.
On pigs out of a handgun, the results are identical to the excellent 240gn SP PPU.
We can and used to handload for .44mag, but don't bother now.

I suggest people give it a go, I'd be keen to see how it goes from a 16"-20" barrel lever gun, better than from a pistol I'd imagine.

[Fester]

Interesting figures, and how the ammo varies a lot.

A while back, in my 20s, I shot a mate's Model 29, revolver with a 14-15" barrel a fair bit.
We used the 240gr Federal loads, and it felt stout, but wood-handled. 44s did tend to feel that way.

I, too, always wondered how 44mag compares with the 30-30.
You can't go by blokes' opinions, obviously, but it sounds like the Dirty-30 comes out on top.
They will all work at lever-gun ranges, blowing holes in things, even the .357, but it sounds to me like that cal can be more lacking.

Have you done much with other cal lever guns?

[Wapiti]

I never owned a 44mag lever gun myself, but a good mate has a 44mag Winchester angle-eject exactly the same as my 30-30, an original Trapper. We used them on pigs side by side, and had a good comparison. If at shorter ranges there is one, I couldn't see.
Big heavy pigs, which we were primarily after, had better penetrative results with the 30-30, and a flatter trajectory. Recoil felt similar.
I'd put it down to the smaller diameter of the. 30, with the higher velocity.
Softer pigs, like sows without the thick cartilage shoulder shields of the older boars, I think it depended on the projectile used.
But, more ammo fitted in the shorter mags in the 16" Trappers with the 44 over the 30-30.
If that's the sort of thing that matters to you.
There's bugger all in it at 50m, though. Certainly nothing to argue about.

[mickb]

I see 44 and 30-30 as similar power class, 44 harder hitting with the right bullets and power level, worse with the wrong ones. Handgun bullerts vary a lot more than rifle bullets, some are designed for 800fps, some for 1800. You cant really say one calibre penetrates better than the other unless you specify the bullet.

As the list shows there are some dud choices in 44 . If a bloke chooses S&B or Blazer he will wish he bought a 357. Some 44 bullets are very tough/ppor expanders and not liked for that reason( eg Magtech). Trappers also muddy the water a bit too, 16" shoots 80fps or more slower than a 20". Its a myth 44 gets all its velocity in the first 16" of barrel.

Top loads of 1850-1900fps are possible with the 240xtp. It has a BC like some 30-30 150 grainers, .204. It doesnt start as fast of course but drop is still only 4-5" at 150 yards. Not that everyone is set up to shoot that far, sights etc, but shows what can be done.

I like the calibre over 30-30 not so much for performance, just as its burning less powder( less blast to my ears at least), faster action and more shots.

Something can also be said using a heavy .429 cal hardcast on big stuff. Not that I get the opportunity to but If you log onto Aus hunt quite a few cullers and NT locals will take a shot with a 44 on scrub bulls, buff and Banteng. Not making it out to be a safari rifle, these are obviously well set up shots. But you dont hear them doing it with a 30-30, 270 etc.

[Wapiti]

Be careful looking at chronograph data and basing opinions on game performance.
As Mick pretty much says, projectile choice matters, but you cannot tell until you try them, in YOUR gun.
Soft points ain't all soft points, nor are hollowpoints.
Then, the construction of the target matters, and the point at where the projectile enters changes that completely.

For nearly all shooters, the velocity difference between a handgun and rifle are not a consideration, as handgun use outside of a range is prohibited unless you make all your income off the land and that's where you do all your shooting.
Then on top of that, the difference between a 16" and 20" barrel doesn't make any difference with the varying field conditions and projectile penetration entry points that are completely different every time when hunting, and the wildly different animal construction between opportunities.

The amount of powder burned is not a consideration for the practical person, its basically cents per cartridge on animals that can cost you thousands of dollars each one allowed to exist, so that's no argument whatsoever. What's working is the consideration.
Then, the hunter on his weekend shoots at game or trophies how many times? Compared to all the other expenses? A drop in the bucket, chaff in the wind.

For example, the 30-30 is a better choice out further, but that's not the lever guns intention. Nor are the sights planted on the top of most of them able to even allow you to use that extra reach.
With regards to the .44, the slower slugs and more rainbow trajectory restrict it too. But again, who uses the .44 as a long range rifle? It's the flip of a coin.
Which ever one you are clutching at the time, is the one that will succeed, and that's up to the shooters skill.

My suggestions are as always, forget numbers on paper and try the ammo.
I too have, too many times, wound myself up with chronograph numbers that everytine, have not made a difference to my field results.
Every time I do that, I give myself an uppercut for being influenced by paper numbers and other people's opinions. Or prior experiences in completely different situations or animals and the bullets placement point that are not at all normal use, or even truthful.

I have used boxes of Winchester, S&B, PPU, Magtech plain, simple 240gn soft points in the .44, and the overall results have been identical when shooting pigs.
We've also tried some of the flashy hollow-point "self-defence" expensive stuff with the aggressive "bear-claw" and other projectiles and found them terribly explosive and fail on the bigger animals.
I've also used hard-cast coated solid lead semi-wadcutters to shoot pigs in traps, and found they pencil and are a really bad animal-welfare choice as far as expansion goes - they didn't. Head shooting only on still animals up close, a distasteful job.
But then, picking up a 30-30 with simple cheap 150gn soft points and getting those same great results, completely ignoring the online opinions and relying on our own use.

From all that blah blah, as always this is from my own personal experience, not velocity numbers which meant nothing when the bullet hit living creatures. Others may have different opinions. Hopefully from actual use.

[Fester]

Yeah, they sure are 2 very different ways of doing the same thing.
As a one-lever-gun man, the 30-30 is for me, the ideal critter-scrub gun, especially for deer, as they can be bigger animals.

I can just use more powder, and don't need the greater capacity in the tube.

Although I mostly play with cast loads for cheaper plinking fun, the sights are always zeroed for 150gr SP full loads.
I load them up a bit now, but they still shoot a lot lower
The projectile is everything for shooting animals, and I won't even try with casties as they punch holes but sure don't expand.

I finally used the indoor range and programmed the night vision scope for different closer-range profiles.
Took the 30-30 for fun offhand practice between the boring stuff.
The stupid lighting caused drama, and SSAA are unlikely to ever spend money to fix that, so I tried turning the booth light off.
The 30-30 actually had some blast that could be seen with the higher cast loads, but rarely ever shot it at night, so it could just be normal.

[mickb]

Be careful looking at chronograph data and basing opinions on game performance.

I have used boxes of Winchester, S&B, PPU, Magtech plain, simple 240gn soft points in the .44, and the overall results have been identical when shooting pigs.

Agree except for S&B which is even less power than some 357 loads. It also doesnt expand well at moderate ranges, doesnt compare to full power 44. Magtech starts fast but is let down by bullets that dont expand well.or drill through at range. I havent used it myself I admit, have enough mates who hate it though.

On another tangent I find there is a real power level difference stepping to 1850-1950fps loads with stuff like the 240 xtp's. These loads I give the edge on factory 44 and 30-30 (up close). The XTP expands as low as 1100fps which means a stout load is still clocking at 1350fps and 65 cal expansion or so past 130 yards. It night and day compared to the above. The core and jacket can separate at about 1800fps impact, but the core still goes in a foot and a half. 1800fps impact means top end starting loads of 1900fps and up close anyway. The yanks also use the bullet even faster in their muzzleloader sabots, past 2000fps and love it.

Fester,
Yeah I like the 30-30 as well, its more of a true rifle round obviously. But it doesnt replace all the advantages of a 44 for me .

Regards less powder in the 44, as mentioned it relates to less blast/noise in the same length barrel as a 30-30( to my ears), not for saving money. Though during Covid shortages I started to worry

The brass is cheap, also buckets going second hand for next to nothing. You are less likely to care dropping it in the grass. Bottlenecked calibres I stop to pick up, pistol cases I wont bother if Im in a hurry, shooting off ATV etc.

Some of us do like the higher capacity shooting.

Plinking, you can load as low as 3.5 grains of shotgun or pistol powder which 2000 rounds to a can of powder, dirt cheap cast bullets. The only thing cheaper than having fun with a pistol cartridge is 22LR.

Subsonic hunting on small properties or close to town to keep noise down. If the speed is capped under 1100, the bigger calibre always wins. 44 Special loads with an expanding soft hollowpoint, and there are only a few that expand under 1100fps can still take moderate pigs and small stuff over baits etc The noise is not more intrusive than 22 mag. The deer cullers operating in some NSW parks are using Ruger 77's with supressors and very wide flat nose cast bullets.Lucky buggars.

[Wapiti]

My experience with the lever actions isn't very comprehensive, and the cartridges I have used isn't a lot, being the common ones, 30-30, 44mag and 357mag.
Mainly as a pig hunting type of role, and certainly not in a farm management role. For that, forget it.
So my experience might not align with others, or my preferences.
I can't help but look at everything when making choices with how flexible a cartridge is, can it stretch outside it's more ideal niche and cover others?
If I was a casual hunter, I would most likely look at things from my intended or chosen perspective, and not at all look at the flexibility picture which I call the bigger picture.
Then there's the rifle design itself. When I compare any lever gun cartridge when used on a farm, and next to the lever gun in the safe is my 16" barrelled 308 7600 Rem pump, the lever guns start collecting dust, because the pump is more accurate, faster to get on target again and has way more range also. And if anyone suggested the 44mag was a better cartridge in any situation than that, I know I'm better off walking away. But where do we stop?

I like the 44mag, it's a great hitter when used in handguns. There, if I argued velocity I would just be wasting my time with something that is pointless, it's the results of the whole package that make it or break it.
I get caught up in numbers too, and have wasted so much time worrying about them. That little Garmin chrony sitting on the edge of the bench throws in things that usually do not matter. For the overall picture I'm looking at anyway, not necessarily others.
That's why being a forum member is so enlightening and answers so many questions I've wondered about in others points of view.