Small rifle primers in 308 - benefits for hunting ammo?

[Wapiti]

Hi guys,
When I was at a larger Toowoomba gunstore I saw a few brands of 308 brass with small rifle primer pockets. I'm not sure if I've asked this before but are there any benefits to these for me?
They seem to be on the more exxy side of the cost scale. Might just be because of the brands sold like this.

We discuss large and magnum primers, surely small rifle would be almost anaemic in a case that can hold 50 grains of powder?
With a flash coming concentrated through a smaller hole?
Are there any issues getting consistent velocities up the top end of the scale?

Just a bit of a disclaimer - I'm definately not after more velocity from the cartridge - I prefer to sit somewhere in the middle of any cartridges ability to avoid issues and if I want more speed will go to a larger cartridge where it's safe.

[straightshooter]

Shooters have a great propensity to believe mythology and magic but especially so if it is delivered with an American accent..
Go back to the seventies when US benchresters discovered the 220 Russian case and turned it into a 22 PPC, thereby displacing the 222 case as king, and finding it ideal for benchrest accuracy. The problem then arose that the 220 Russian case was unobtainable so many benchresters turned to reforming readily available7.62x39 cases. However with these reformed cases durability problems arose due to the large primer and the resulting reduced amount of brass supporting the case web when indications suggested accuracy was improving with increased powder loads.
This was the progenitor of the "you too can get benchrest accuracy if you use SR primers" myth.
This gift to marketing is what allows case manufacturers to charge x3 or x4 over the price of standard brass for only a minuscule increase in material cost.

[Damo300]

They'd be okay for subs I reckon.

[Fester]

Hardly worth bothering for .308 unless you were chasing F-class championships and convinced of some benefit besides more marterial in the base making it stronger.
My primer pockets don't seem to stretch anyway; too hot if that's happening.

I think the recommended primer is an SR Magnum, despite lots of sepo's claiming std SR primers are fine.
More unnecessary cost for the primers.

I did suspect my most accurate 6.5 F_gmoor load was the Lap SR primer cases with my std 41gr of 09.
Then I roll up next shoot, using Federal LR primer cases and shoot a couple of 5-shot single ragged groups.
Not saying I can shoot 1/2" all day, just a couple to make me feel I have achieved something in my shooting and loading.

When I shot longer-range groups, I used BR4 primers instead of Std LR primers for any advantage but couldn't prove anything concrete.
I used std LR primers in all other cals and hunting rifles, so not going through a huge number of more exy primers like BR4s or SR Magnum, so no big deal; just keep 1 spare 1,000-pack so I don't run out of personal stock.

[Fester]

h

[mchughcb]

People were grabbing them for fullbore when they couldn't get LR primers a couple years back.

[bigrich]

Go back to the seventies when US benchresters discovered the 220 Russian case and turned it into a 22 PPC, thereby displacing the 222 case as king,

NEVER ! the 222 is still king as far as i'm concerned

as for small rifle primers in a 308 case , i think it's about slowing the ignition to get a slightly longer burn for better accuracy with heavy bullets in the case .
i think

for hunting i wouldn't bother. JMHO

[straightshooter]

as for small rifle primers in a 308 case , i think it's about slowing the ignition to get a slightly longer burn for better accuracy with heavy bullets in the case .
i think

That's just one of a multitude of theories that range from the induction of barrel vibrations to being affected by the phase of the moon.

[Wapiti]

That's great info, Straightshooter's explanation does suggest marketing crap as usual and the history of it, never would've known that.

Fester has a good point too, especially with BR primers... In a Remington Custom-Shop 40XB 308 Tactical (copy of a M40 but with the 40X action) and a 300SAUM Sendero of mine, I always used Federal Gold medal match primers... thinking they were what I HAD to use... until I couldn't get them. Then all I could get were the lowly Winchester LR primers, subbed them and has exactly the same little groups. Doh. marketing again.

Mchughcb's theory has heaps of merit, I too remember when all that was around post the Covid con was pistol and SR primers. makes sense.

On the case head stretching theory, FMD.
If you are so intent on throttling a cartridge up to that point that you have to put SR Mag primers in to give the case head more meat, what a mob of losers.
If you want more speed to get a longer bullet out of the wind faster, get a 300SAUM which is the exact length of the 308 in the short action so your PRS non-wanking hand gets that bolt back and forward again just as fast, and a 168gn bullet at 3100fps with a mild load.

Yeah I saw these Peterson, Norma and Lapua SR cases and they were bloody expensive, and the primers aren't exactly on the common list either most times, and thought, this must be some kind of super benefit and magic solution to make me somehow more competitive.
The Peterson cases were obviously worth the massive price hit, because they came in mega cool $6 plastic boxes.
So now I know, it's gay.

[Fester]

I paid big money for a couple of bags of the Starline SR pockets for that reason; LR primers were dried up.
Also, my Lap SR cases had fired about 15 times, and I had no other SR cases.

Peterson was a good buy, back in the day, beat paying Lap prices, and Norma were asking Lapua prices, so stuff like that.
The plastic boxes were a more compact size for short-action ammo.

I think it's mainly the longer-range group shooters who like the premium-grade primers and match dies and crap.
They also need new barrels after shooting less than 2,000 rounds.

Bench rest comp blokes also.
I showed the RO a nice single ragged 5-shot group as I brought the target in, and he said that's not a single-hole group.
They must try for single-round holes.
They need rubber behind the target to verify it's 5 shots, not 1.

[Wapiti]

I think it's mainly the longer-range group shooters who like the premium-grade primers and match dies and crap.
They also need new barrels after shooting less than 2,000 rounds.

Yes but that's for those silly billies that have those big cases with the small holes like 6.5, not the good 'ol 308Win... good for 6-10,000 rounds mate.
Soon you'll have those steel cased 80,000 PSI 6.5's with a barrel life of 800.
You'll be better in bed but.

[Fester]

Yeah, all things have their pros and cons.
Hard to beat the humble .223 and .308 for barrel life.

The other classic Aussie loved cal is not so great, the .243.

Can't have fast flat shooting without some barrel burning.

I just love 6.5 as a great cal for what I do.
My mountain hunting rifle is a 6.5x55, and the longer-range target shooter was a no-brainer.

I would never consider any of the faster 6.5s, but do like the faster 7mm jobs.
Just ballistically superior to most things.
A .308 would make a handy ultralight mountain rifle, if I start looking at the bigger Sambar deer.
Howa are on the right track with those light rifles, .308 for men, and 6.5 Gaylord to sell a million.

[bigrich]

as for small rifle primers in a 308 case , i think it's about slowing the ignition to get a slightly longer burn for better accuracy with heavy bullets in the case .
i think

That's just one of a multitude of theories that range from the induction of barrel vibrations to being affected by the phase of the moon.

yeah agreed . but human competitiveness being what it is , some will do anything to win a competition

[bigrich]

Yeah, all things have their pros and cons.
Hard to beat the humble .223 and .308 for barrel life.

The other classic Aussie loved cal is not so great, the .243.

Can't have fast flat shooting without some barrel burning.

I just love 6.5 as a great cal for what I do.
My mountain hunting rifle is a 6.5x55, and the longer-range target shooter was a no-brainer.

I would never consider any of the faster 6.5s, but do like the faster 7mm jobs.
Just ballistically superior to most things.
A .308 would make a handy ultralight mountain rifle, if I start looking at the bigger Sambar deer.
Howa are on the right track with those light rifles, .308 for men, and 6.5 Gaylord to sell a million.

i agree . my "working rifles" are T3's in 223, 308 . 223 for paddock cleaning , 308 for goats on up . i have other rifles that satisfy my yearning for historical/collector type stuff , 32-20, 7x57, 338-06 . and the greatest cartridge ever invented , the triple deuce

243's are useful for long range pest control , but yeah, barrel life isn't as long as 223 and 308 . i hunted with 6.5x55 years ago with 140sst loads which did the job on a wide range of game , but it doesn't give the energy transfer like a 308 . it suits what i do . 30-06 is better again but unnecessary for most game i hunt at the ranges i shoot . just more recoil which makes it slower to get back on target compared to my 308 . i think with what i know now the 7mm rem mag would be a good choice for one hunting rifle to hunt anything , and i mean stalking/hunting at a wide range of game and distances . 308 is a practical choice for higher volume larger feral culling . 7mm rem mag wouldn't have to be loaded full tilt, as mild accurate loads are about equal to hot 7x57 loads that kill everything well with good penetration and bullet expansion .

i did buy and load for a 6.5 manbun and took it hunting . i found lighter bullets 120 grain and under loaded fast worked best . i was underwhelmed with it's game performance with heavier bullets and found velocity from local ADI powder can't get near to velocity in USA loaded hunting ammo . i reckon a 243 with 95 grain factory ammo is a more practical thing when looking at a price versus performance perspective . 6.5x55 is superior to 6.5CM for hunting in every way in my opinion . it cost me time and money , but i've trialled both in real world hunting uses . for target work factory loaded 6.5CM ammo in a good rifle is impressive , which is the market it was originally designed for .

back on topic , for hunting i see no reason for small rifle primer in a 308, or any other calibre . i think it's best left to the benchrest guys , so they think they've got a edge . but who knows , some marketing wally might come up with the idea that small rifle primers in the 30-30 winchester might be a great thing , with "outstanding competition accuracy" something "new and improved" for the consumers

[Wapiti]

Where do I start on the 6.5 x 55?
Thread creep, how good is it? people looking at the thread titles are missing out!
If I had a choice and another reason for a rifle and there wasn't this terrible cloud in my mind about one day having to give a government $4000 rifles for $1000 because some human scum politician lets brown squirts past their sphincters at the thought of a free society, I'd have one of these.

Sako906.5x55.jpg (297.26 KiB) Viewed 53 times

Gorgeous rifle, everything already there and no mucking around.
6.5x55 was the best 6.5 back in 1900'ish Mausers, and still is, despite the marketing crap nowadays. It had fast twist back then, long range 140gn bullets and was the best military cartridge of it's time. The necking down and strangling of the 308 to 6.5 is inferior and just a marketing exercise and the world is full of suckers clutching for anything to make up for something lacking elsewhere.

Your observations Rich of the basically, marked difference between real-life performance of the Manbun against the 308 are really obvious even in the small examples I've seen here by people who've shown me what they've said has made all my gear inferior. That has always ended in red faces.

[Fester]

Yeah, all things have their pros and cons.
Hard to beat the humble .223 and .308 for barrel life.

The other classic Aussie loved cal is not so great, the .243.

Can't have fast flat shooting without some barrel burning.

I just love 6.5 as a great cal for what I do.
My mountain hunting rifle is a 6.5x55, and the longer-range target shooter was a no-brainer.

I would never consider any of the faster 6.5s, but do like the faster 7mm jobs.
Just ballistically superior to most things.
A .308 would make a handy ultralight mountain rifle, if I start looking at the bigger Sambar deer.
Howa are on the right track with those light rifles, .308 for men, and 6.5 Gaylord to sell a million.

i agree . my "working rifles" are T3's in 223, 308 . 223 for paddock cleaning , 308 for goats on up . i have other rifles that satisfy my yearning for historical/collector type stuff , 32-20, 7x57, 338-06 . and the greatest cartridge ever invented , the triple deuce

243's are useful for long range pest control , but yeah, barrel life isn't as long as 223 and 308 . i hunted with 6.5x55 years ago with 140sst loads which did the job on a wide range of game , but it doesn't give the energy transfer like a 308 . it suits what i do . 30-06 is better again but unnecessary for most game i hunt at the ranges i shoot . just more recoil which makes it slower to get back on target compared to my 308 . i think with what i know now the 7mm rem mag would be a good choice for one hunting rifle to hunt anything , and i mean stalking/hunting at a wide rage of game and distances . 308 is a practical choice for higher volume larger feral culling . 7mm rem mag wouldn't have to be loaded full tilt, as mild accurate loads are about equal to hot 7x57 loads that kill everything well with good penetration and bullet expansion .

i did buy and load for a 6.5 manbun and took it hunting . i found lighter bullets 120 grain and under loaded fast worked best . i was underwhelmed with it's game performance with heavier bullets and found velocity from local ADI powder can't get near to velocity in USA loaded hunting ammo . i reckon a 243 with 95 grain factory ammo is a more practical thing when looking at a price versus performance perspective . 6.5x55 is superior to 6.5CM for hunting in every way in my opinion . it cost me time and money , but i've trialled both in real world hunting uses . for target work factory loaded 6.5CM ammo in a good rifle is impressive , which is the market it was originally designed for .

back on topic , for hunting i see no reason for small rifle primer in a 308, or any other calibre . i think it's best left to the benchrest guys , so they think they've got a edge . but who knows , some marketing wally might come up with the idea that small rifle primers in the 30-30 winchester might be a great thing , with "outstanding competition accuracy" something "new and improved" for the consumers

We must think alike, mate, and my Swede is one of the first T3x rifles I could lay my hands on.
Just so light to carry, but still shoots like a champ.
I knew it was going to get wet and cop a hiding, so a staino plastic was the only choice.

It did like 120s better and could shoot clovers with A-Maxes.
I was a newb, and wanted to shoot 140 SP pills for deer.
My first few Fallow did death runs, but the chest cavity was turned to mush, using std Federal blue box ammo, and reloaded Game Kings.
The trick was trying Woodleighs and loading them stouter to get them grouping.
They exit deer with a thumb-sized exit wound, and drop more animals quicker, including much bigger bucks.
A 140 Hotcor proved devastating on a young, meaty, loaded stout like the Woodies.
It's like shooting a bigger rifle; it feels like it too, with more recoil.

.223 has an essential place, and everybody needs one of them.
.308 also if ammo costs come into it, and you shoot lots of critters at normal hunting ranges.
They hit hard for sure.
I considered a 30-06, but really, I need 2 rifles: a 7mm mag that is heavy enough to shoot longer ranges, and another mountain rifle in .308 for bigger critters.

Despite the shortfalls, I still like the newer 7mm PRC.
The tighter modern chamber complements the high BC projectiles in the faster twist barrel.
The little things add up to get that longer-range accuracy.
If I had a rem mag, it would do fine.
Sifting through internet info and real-life talking to blokes at the longer shooting range, it appears the PRC is like a Ducati, needing higher maintenance; the carbon ring talk is real.

I don't mind cleaning, and not going to shoot thousands of rounds a year through it.
I don't want anything like a target-weight rifle, but it needs more weight than a mountain rifle, as I don't really want to just screw on muzzle blaster devices to shoot it well.

Back on topic, Lol
One of the advantages of .308 is cheap ammo, so why would normal shooters even consider using anything but std LR primers. Leave that sort of stuff to the target shooters, as primers are back, just cost 3 or 4 times as much.

[Wapiti]

true Fester.
But mu point was, what was the advantage of SR primers?
The coping with higher pressure idea is crazy and seems like something one does in desperation, the other benefits, well there just aren't any except in someone's imagination?
A mate of mine's "marketing in action" answer to all this, especially when someone has told us of all these benefits yet fails every time to show it, is a great way to explain it?
But such reputable brands like Lapua and Norma... would they fall for that? there must be more to it other than a demand for no reason.

[bigrich]

true Fester.
But mu point was, what was the advantage of SR primers?
The coping with higher pressure idea is crazy and seems like something one does in desperation, the other benefits, well there just aren't any except in someone's imagination?
A mate of mine's "marketing in action" answer to all this, especially when someone has told us of all these benefits yet fails every time to show it, is a great way to explain it?
But such reputable brands like Lapua and Norma... would they fall for that? there must be more to it other than a demand for no reason.

i did a quick google , and a few reasons for small primers popped up . smaller primer pockets make for a stronger case with heavy loads and bullets . small primer pockets less prone to getting loose from multiple firings , lower variations in velocity , hence tighter groups and accuracy . not really necessary for hunting, unless your shooting game at over 600 yards

i'll add some more personal experiences with this sort of stuff . at the friendly comp between ssaa ripley and the ADA i noticed something odd one year . it gets quite cold when the hold the comp , july i think , and my initial shots felt soft and accuracy was horrible . i experienced this hunting down tenterfeild one year in winter . i haven't used fed 210 primers since . i experienced similar performance with my 7x57 during a practice shoot the weekend before the comp . so i got creative , i put my ammo in my range bag next to a aluminium water bottle full of hot water covered by a towel . i had a good shoot , everyone else was complaining about sad scores

as for specialist brass fester, i try to avoid it for field use . ferals were probably laughing at the big boofhead crawling around in the bush a few years ago, trying to find some lapua 6.5x55 brass . if i loose a 223/308 ADI case , meh , easily replaced . one reason i built a 338-06 is it uses common old 30-06 brass , no great loss or expense . 7mm PRC brass wouldn't be that common or cheap i expect ? just sayin', not trying to rain on your parade mate. 7mm rem mag brass isn't too hard or expensive to find by comparison

[Duramax]

One of the recent Hornady podcasts talked specifically about the virtues of SRPs versus LRPs. Their conclusion is exactly what people have been saying, the benefit is more meat around to prevent loss of pockets at higher pressure. No evidence of accuracy gain or ES reduction. Now they have a full team of experts and a ballistic lab to make said judgement. There was two cautions, one of hangfires which I have seen myself in a 6 Creedmoor when using slower powders and SRP. Forty plus grains of 2209 in a 6mm Creedmoor and a SRP is some scary medicine. The click bang sound is one step too close to the click boom for me. The other caution was colder weather producing hangfires or misfires. The remedy is always given to use CCI 450 magnum primers in such instances. That sort of proves the point don't it?

[Fester]

Yeah, smaller flash hole, and yanks saying the std SR primers are fine won't suck me in.
Those cartridges were run for a long time with the std LR primer, and that's what I would use.
I tried the SR in 6.5 CM, for my own experiments and used magnum primers, as recommended.

In a way, with the ridiculous prices they are charging for cases now, I reckon the companies will do anything to sell.

I have been sitting on the fence for about 2 years now, watching, my next bigger cal buy, can't do anything until the steal back, or buy another safe. Can't get a PTA in NSW now anyhow.
The 7mmPRC is one that will take off. It will likely be the next 6.5 Fagmoor.
The brands are jumping in, putting factory rifles out as quickly as they can, all of them by now.
Cases won't be an issue, and not a general bush hunter for me.

I won't be the goose seen crawling for his Lap case in the grass, and if I shoot a Sambar deer, that's what my eyes will be on, not where a case went. As a tightass, I will look at the ground later if I remember, before taking a step lol.