Dogs and shooting....... how?

[jennageit]

Hi Guys,

As you may, or may not, have read, I have many years experience training both dogs and owners.
One thing I have never come across is having to get a dog (any dog) used to the sound of gunshots.

I have three dogs here.
1 x 8yo White Boxer bitch - she's an inside dog mostly due to be almost totally deaf now, and as disobedient as they come (that's what happens when too many people have their own ideas on how to train a dog, and what the dog should be allowed to get away with).
1 x 3yo Border Collie dog - he's an outside dog 98% of the time. comes in for attention. Ex working dog (we have no sheep at the moment), and has some issues.
1 x 18mo Border Collie bitch - not a sheepdog of any description, more a couch potato and bird chaser.

The issue I have is this:

My male (Jock) is scared of motorbikes. he loves to run beside the quad bike, and is happy around my son's road bike, however, whenever a motorbike goes past on the road, he hides in a corner. (Phillip Island Grand Prix saw him refuse to eat for three days as the Barry Sheen Memorial Ride goes right past our place) He'll stop eating to wait for them to go past.
Loud bangs (when posts are being dropped or similar) also unsettle him, not to the point where he goes and hides, but he certainly takes note of the sound and will move away to a more comfortable distance for him.
Also, he's not fazed by sound effects on movies, thunder, lightning, loud truck brakes, etc

When I start shooting, should I take him out of his day run and put him in his sleeping pen (His palace, he loves that place)?

All of my dogs have had basic obedience training (even if the Boxer has her own ideas, she knows when she must behave), and are fantastic around the quad bike, cars, kids etc

Any ideas on what I can do to NOT terrorise my boy Jock when I do start shooting at home?

Jenna

PS. Back Story on Jock.
When I bought him (no money changed hands, he was given to me as a gift - I chose him from the litter), he came from a less than ideal environment. Raised in a pack with his littermates and mother, with other dogs getting into the whelping pen whenever they felt like it. There were no food bowls at this place (still aren't), and the dogs are fed by handfuls of dry food being thrown at them. The pups, and their dam, were reared on day old bread soaked in powdered milk. For those farmers out there, when these people can get their hands on the day old bread, they put it in a long sheep foot bath and pour powdered milk over top, hose down the contents and let the dogs out of their runs in a free-for-all feeding frenzy.
This was put into two separate bowls (the only ones on the joint) for an adult bitch and nine pups to feed out of a couple of times a week until the last pup was sold, and the four that were kept remained.
The dogs (approximately 30 now) are not given any attention other than to be fed, watered and occasionally let off their chains, and these people do not believe in praise. I'm pretty sure most of the dogs don't know their names, and any words that are spoken to them are generally something being yelled at them.
I brought Jock home at 9 weeks of age, got him all of his injections and put him on a great puppy diet. he's been well socialised with other people and dogs, at this stage is still entire, loves a ride in the car, and is the most gentle animal you could imagine around my 5yo daughter.

I hate the way that these people supposedly care for their dogs, and no amount of intervention on the part of anyone has done any good. The only thing that I know has made a difference is me supplying worming and flea treatment to the owner at a fraction of what I bought it for. I go out there and there's a dog roundup to get everyone done.
She has asked to use my dog over one of her bitches, I've refused. She's also asked for a puppy from my bitch if I breed from her, this has also been refused. (I'm thinking of desexing both my Border Collies - I'm a little over the hassles of keeping them separate).

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Chronos]

as you'll no doubt already know dog training starts by getting the required result then expanding it to real world situations.

it's about desensitizing the dog to the sound. dogs have very sensitive hearing and most dogs, even "gundogs" can become anxious at such a noise as you already know with your dog and lets face it the bang of a centerfire rifle can shock even gun savvy people when you're not expecting it or forget to put your muffs on

the main thing is to go slow, it can be difficult to bring a dog back that has become "gun shy"

we have 2 GSP dogs and it was important for us they become accustomed to gunfire. we started when they were very young. when their food bowls were put down they were made to sit and wait. then released to eat. we did the usual taking the food away and putting our hands to the bowl to train them it was "our" food being shared with them. also during these times we would clap loudly and then progressed to a toy cap gun fired away from their eating area at first but later in the same room.the goal here is to have the dog ignore the sound completely and continue eating. when this was fired we dd not react, no words and no comforting the dogs, the noise was treated as just another natural sound in the environment.. one of them was fine, the other would react, tail up looking around. eventually he settled down.

when we first took them to a place where gunfire would be heard we put them in a crate (they were already comfortable in it) behind the direct sound source. and again no fuss was made. eventually we just left the car door open and the more sensitive one would just go lay on the back seat when the noise got too much for him.

we took them out for a bit of shotgun practice earlier this year and had each dog take turn sitting at heal (just behind the gun) while the myself or my wife would shoot at a steel rabbit swinging target about 30y away. after the shot we would send the dog forward to "find" the rabbit. they would sniff around the target happily without any sense that the noise bothered them before returning for a "good dog" and an ear scratch. in fact i think they knew the shot was the signal that work was coming their way which is what you want from a gun dog or retriever

there's a stack of good reading on this topic to be found on the net as well as in books

https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#safe=off&q=training%20dogs%20around%20guns

and here's a pic of one of ours, as you can see he has no concern about the rifle or the noise it makes (7-08) in fact i had to send him back behind me so i could finish sighting the rifle in....bloody towel hog, 3,000 acres to run on and he wants to lay beside me

Chronos

[Westy]

At least someone wants to lay beside you!!!
Sorry Mate!!!!

[Chronos]

At least someone wants to lay beside you!!!
Sorry Mate!!!!

Never heard you complain westy : lol:

Chronos

[Westy]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Haven't you read my posts that's all I do ,complain that is

Great Photo mate and your right you can have 10000 acres and they'll lye right in the one place you don't want them too!!!!!

[Warrigul]

You know what, I have decided that some dogs are naturally gun shy. Sure start them off easy but some are just too nervous and will never adjust.

I have shot over dogs since first memory and I know of around fifteen in our group that were either put down or given away as pets. And you can't pick it from the litter behaviour either.

You are always better to start them with experienced dogs, this settles them (usually). I have started two in the past six months and both have gone straight in with no conditioning at all just followed example, the springer/beagle/lab and something else stray is a keeper but the first one is a pack dog only.

[jennageit]

This afternoon (when I got back from shooting) I took Jock out for a run in the paddock. Actually, he ran, I made myself comfy leaning up against the car lol

A horse truck went past, no probs, until one of the horses kicked the tailgait. It was beside me like a rocket, trying to hide under me.

I never bought him as a gundog, he's a great sheepdog and turning into a pretty good pet too, but I don't want him to be petrified when I'm shooting. I might try the softly softlly approach with him.

He can be in his pen (which he loves), and I'll make sure I'm well away from him when I shoot. Hopefully he'll get used to it over time, otherwise I might just bring him into a pen inside if I'm planning on shooting that day. He'll love the extra attention.

On a side note, my neighbour was shooting today (no idea what), and Peppa (my BC bitch) got all excited, tearing around all over the place looking for something. Wonder if she was a gundog in a past life? lol

[Jack V]

It sounds like to me that the dog has had some pre history with being shot at or maybe disciplined with a stock whip . At 3 years old it may be difficult to undo that kind of behaviour caused by trauma or it could just be something it was born with , like a nervous condition .

The thing you can't do is react yourself to the dogs fearful reaction , that just reinforces his fear that something bad just happened.
take the dog out in the paddock with just a 22 rimfire and let him run around and when he is 100 yards away fire a shot at your side in the dirt , don't hit your foot .

Don't raise the gun in any way or aim at anything and have your back to the dog . After the shot just walk off unconcerned and call the dog to follow without ever looking at the dog . Even if it runs off keep calling and walking as if nothing bad has happened. Keep trying and if you get one time when the dog does come to you , place the gun on the ground and pat and praise the dog away from the gun . If it goes on for weeks and the dog runs home every time then you may never fix the problem and there is no point in stressing him out further .

If he starts to ignore the shot at 100 yards then start firing one when he is a bit closer . If you get him to ignore a rimfire then you could start over again with a bigger gun. Someone on a motorbike might have taken a shot at that dog at some point in his early life .

Also if you could take another dog with no fear of gunshots along and pat and praise that dog for staying put , your dog might get jealous enough and override his fear to oust the other dog .

[Lorgar]

Same as above... introduce slowly etc.

I've only taken my girl out once so far. Sure enough... crapped herself when the first shot went off and rocketed to between my feet.

Took her 60-70m away or something with dense bush between me and a mate while he fired a few shots as I got closer.

Still more to be done, but she was better after a few minutes of slow introduction.

[jennageit]

It's going to have to be the soft approach with this boy.

Given he's used to being about to tear around the place at a million miles an hour, I doubt i'll ever have him out when I'm shooting anyway, but I don't want him to become petrified if he sees me carrying my rifle past his pen (an association he will make if I get this wrong).

All I can do is hope that we get it right, and that he learns to accept it, but thank you guys for all the advice. I'll read through it all again as the time gets nearer to putting it into practice.

[Ariat]

You've got a .22LR, right?

Good starter as it's relatively quiet. I'd be surprised if he had any problems with that.

[jennageit]

It'll be a .22lr mate, nothing massive.

Everything has been put on hold for now. I'll pay my license fee next week, but that's as far as it's going to go for now unfortunately.

[Tiiger]

.22 should be no problem.

I reckon you'll see they all get used to it very quickly.

It's when you're shooting centrefire that has a real *crack* that it's tougher to get them happy with it.