Trying to identify a rear sight

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Trying to identify a rear sight

Post by bladeracer » 05 Dec 2019, 5:14 pm

A neighbour has found a rear sight (he shot smallbore competition for several decades) that he doesn't recognise as something he used himself.

To me, it appears military, but scaled down - my guess is a .22 rimfire training rifle perhaps.
It doesn't appear to have any means of attachment so I'm guessing it's designed to be soldered in place.
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Barrel diameter is about .650", which again points to a .22" bore.
I was thinking maybe an aftermarket "military-style" sight, except that it is serial numbered with "1232".
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Graduations are not notched or "clicks", just friction, so recoil is negligible.
Measuring the graduations gives me the following:
At the "50" setting the bottom of the notch is .298" above the barrel diameter
The "100" setting is plus .089".
The "200" is plus .171".
The "300" is plus .288".
The "400" is plus .470".
The 500" is plus .709".
The top setting (no distance marking but looks to be in line with "600" based on the scale) is plus 1.007".
It also has a windage mark .090" either side of the centre of the notch.

A sight radius of 500mm would make the sight settings roughly 15.5MoA, 30MoA, 50.5MoA, 82MoA, 124MoA, and 190MoA, and the windage marks 15.5 minutes.
This is pretty close to .22LR trajectory out to 600yds, if the 500mm sight radius is a good guess.

Does it look vaguely familiar to anybody?
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Re: Trying to identify a rear sight

Post by Blr243 » 05 Dec 2019, 7:36 pm

Sliding design makes me think military too but all the sliding scale types I have seen on smle s have numbers going up to much greater ranges
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Re: Trying to identify a rear sight

Post by No1_49er » 05 Dec 2019, 10:01 pm

.310 Martini Cadet. ?
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Re: Trying to identify a rear sight

Post by bladeracer » 05 Dec 2019, 10:06 pm

No1_49er wrote:.310 Martini Cadet. ?


I did consider it, but the thin barrel put me off. I'll have to check the trajectory of the .310 tomorrow and see if it fits.
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Re: Trying to identify a rear sight

Post by bladeracer » 05 Dec 2019, 10:20 pm

Just checked Numrich and I think it is indeed a Cadet sight, although not identical to what they show.
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/1103730
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Re: Trying to identify a rear sight

Post by bladeracer » 05 Dec 2019, 10:32 pm

Thanks for the tip, I've found one.
https://www.joesalter.com/category/prod ... item-37060
Graduations are different though so I think it's for a .22LR version of the Cadet.
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Re: Trying to identify a rear sight

Post by No1_49er » 06 Dec 2019, 12:03 pm

That might be a 297/230 then?
CF rifle with almost same ballistics as 22 long.
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Re: Trying to identify a rear sight

Post by bladeracer » 06 Dec 2019, 2:44 pm

No1_49er wrote:That might be a 297/230 then?
CF rifle with almost same ballistics as 22 long.


Was that a common enough chambering in the Cadet that somebody would've produced sights specific to it? If it flies similarly to .22LR wouldn't they use the same sights?
From what I read, the Cadet wasn't chambered in .22 rimfire until well into the Long-Rifle era, so I doubt any would've been chambered in .22 Long or Short, at least not commercially.
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Re: Trying to identify a rear sight

Post by bladeracer » 06 Dec 2019, 6:23 pm

I don't have BC numbers for the original factory .310 Cadet load, but a 120gn cast RN at 1300fps doesn't really come close to these graduations at all. I don't think it's a .310 Cadet sight.

I don't know exactly when they started barreling the Cadet for .22LR (post-1945 perhaps?), but looking at .22LR ammo from around that era, the bullet designs and velocities are not dissimilar to modern .22LR. A 40gn .223" cast bullet at about the 1000fps mark fairly closely follows the trajectory of the sight in yard distances, except for the 15.5-minutes at 100yds, but perhaps they trained with a six-o'clock hold at that distance on an eight-inch bull?

Some cool information:
https://cartridgecollectors.org/ammunition-catalogs/Peters
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Re: Trying to identify a rear sight

Post by No1_49er » 06 Dec 2019, 10:02 pm

I think you are misunderstanding the history of small-bore trainers.
The 297/230 pre-dates the 310 Cadet. You'll be looking for a Francotte patent Martini.
The ballistics of the original cartridge (a CF, reloadable case) practically duplicate the 22LR when loaded with a 37gn lead projectile and (original) 5.5gn black powder. There is some data for reloading with current smokeless powder.
Want data - PM me.
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Re: Trying to identify a rear sight

Post by bladeracer » 06 Dec 2019, 10:49 pm

No1_49er wrote:I think you are misunderstanding the history of small-bore trainers.
The 297/230 pre-dates the 310 Cadet. You'll be looking for a Francotte patent Martini.
The ballistics of the original cartridge (a CF, reloadable case) practically duplicate the 22LR when loaded with a 37gn lead projectile and (original) 5.5gn black powder. There is some data for reloading with current smokeless powder.
Want data - PM me.


I haven't studied the history to any great degree, I'm just trying to identify the sight so it could perhaps be of use to somebody rather than just continue to take up shelf space for a few more decades :-)

Are you telling me this sight is from an early Cadet in .297/230 Morris and not a later .22LR? I found a video on Youtube of a .22LR No.8 Cadet that has this style of sight. Would they have used the early .297/230 sight on the .22LR conversions rather than graduate a new sight for the .22?

I'm starting to think it might be nice to put it on an old Lithgow Model 12 myself :-)
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Re: Trying to identify a rear sight

Post by No1_49er » 06 Dec 2019, 11:16 pm

I think my original post was that it "might" be from a 297/230.
I'm not aware of any cadets that were produced in 22LR although there were many Martinis produced later on that were small-bore target rifles, not specifically "trainers", and not with barrel mounted rear sights.
The 297/230 is earlier than the 310 but with similar ballistics to 22LR.
If you saw an Enfield No 8 with the type of sight you are trying to identify, it wasn't the real deal. A No 8 had a conventional ladder sight fitted to the rear of the action, much like a No 4, but ranged only to 800yd. The No 8s were definitely a military trainer, not produced in large numbers, looking something like the later Enfield Enforcer.
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Re: Trying to identify a rear sight

Post by bladeracer » 06 Dec 2019, 11:22 pm

No1_49er wrote:I think my original post was that it "might" be from a 297/230.
I'm not aware of any cadets that were produced in 22LR although there were many Martinis produced later on that were small-bore target rifles, not specifically "trainers", and not with barrel mounted rear sights.
The 297/230 is earlier than the 310 but with similar ballistics to 22LR.
If you saw an Enfield No 8 with the type of sight you are trying to identify, it wasn't the real deal. A No 8 had a conventional ladder sight fitted to the rear of the action, much like a No 4, but ranged only to 800yd. The No 8s were definitely a military trainer, not produced in large numbers, looking something like the later Enfield Enforcer.


Not an Enfield, a Martini.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QCIoQ34RoM4
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Re: Trying to identify a rear sight

Post by marksman » 07 Dec 2019, 6:43 pm

“If you do not read the newspapers you are uninformed. If you do read the newspapers you are misinformed”. Mark Twain
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Re: Trying to identify a rear sight

Post by bladeracer » 07 Dec 2019, 6:51 pm



It's the same sight but with different graduations.
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Re: Trying to identify a rear sight

Post by bladeracer » 08 Dec 2019, 6:51 pm

I found there are four .22LR Cadets on auction in South Africa, a No.13, two No.15's and an unstated one.
One of them has this sight still.
Also a Greener .22LR that appears to have the same sight.
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Re: Trying to identify a rear sight

Post by 4godsako » 10 Apr 2021, 2:08 pm

Definitely not a BSA 310 martini cadet rear sight......maybe a Greener Martini cadet ? ? ?
Poss a big momma martini...?
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Re: Trying to identify a rear sight

Post by 4godsako » 10 Apr 2021, 2:11 pm

Maybe due to it's rough looking construction it could be a Khyber Pass martini
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Re: Trying to identify a rear sight

Post by 4godsako » 10 Apr 2021, 2:11 pm

And the digits 34 and 5 may indicate 300 yards 400 yards 500 yards which would not be on a little cadet
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Re: Trying to identify a rear sight

Post by bladeracer » 11 Apr 2021, 5:09 pm

4godsako wrote:And the digits 34 and 5 may indicate 300 yards 400 yards 500 yards which would not be on a little cadet


What are the graduations on the .22LR Cadet then?
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Re: Trying to identify a rear sight

Post by LawrenceA » 12 Apr 2021, 7:53 am

Has anyone considered the 297-230?
One well placed shot is all it takes.
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