Are old Brno rifles as good as they are often said to be?

[jwai86]

I've heard various people allege that the Brno Model 2 is better built or more accurate than its CZ 45X descendants, and its reputation often commands a premium on the used market. Are any of these claims true, or are they products of nostalgia bias?

I've also seen the Model 1 and Model 5 in lesser numbers on the used market, but can anyone tell me if their differing features make a lot of difference in practice?

[No1Mk3]

Yes.

[animalpest]

I wouldn't say that the model 2 is more accurate that some of today's .22LR rifles. But they all shoot terrific, are very well built and in good nick, would be my choice of .22 rifle hands down.

Brno had a bad period when their rifles were pretty ordinary. That adds to the mystique of the Model 2. But they have been good for the last couple of decades. I have a few Brno and CZ and love them.

[bladeracer]

I've heard various people allege that the Brno Model 2 is better built or more accurate than its CZ 45X descendants, and its reputation often commands a premium on the used market. Are any of these claims true, or are they products of nostalgia bias?

I've also seen the Model 1 and Model 5 in lesser numbers on the used market, but can anyone tell me if their differing features make a lot of difference in practice?

I can't say if they shoot any better than a current CZ, but as long as they've been looked after they won't shoot any worse. I think the finish is better though on the older ones. They're too pretty to take bush.

I thought the different models were pretty small changes.

[JimTom]

I own both a BRNO mod 2 and a CZ 457 and the old mod 2 runs rings around the CZ.

[bigrich]

From what I’ve heard, Brno built before the late 60’s have a higher standard of finishing, and are generally more accurate. I’ve had some cz’s that were disappointing. The best CZ I had was a 452 American. But my current weihrauch hw60j has a magic trigger and is more consistent than any CZ or Brno I’ve owned. The trigger can be tweaked into a pretty good thing on a CZ/Brno but. The only Brno I’ve had was 1972 built and was no better than my weihrauch in groups. The main reason I got rid of my cz’s was unreliable ejection. The cases used to hit the scope and fall back in from time to time. Besides a 94/22 Winchester I had , my weihrauch feeds and ejects perfectly every time

[bigpete]

Yes they are

[jwai86]

Can the people who are asserting that the old Brno rifles are superior further elaborate as to why, and how to tell? For various reasons, I have not had the chance to physically inspect (let alone use) a Model 2 or compare one with newer CZ rifles.

[JimTom]

I should’ve elaborated a little more in my first post mate. My CZ457 looks an absolute treat, has an adjustable trigger that I have tuned to my liking, however the old 1960’s BRNO is far more accurate. In saying that my CZ still shoots acceptable groups just not as good as the Brno.

[Larry]

Dont forget that there may be just a small amount of self interest bias in the answers As anyone that has one is not going to say they are not worth the premium being asked for them.

[bladeracer]

Can the people who are asserting that the old Brno rifles are superior further elaborate as to why, and how to tell? For various reasons, I have not had the chance to physically inspect (let alone use) a Model 2 or compare one with newer CZ rifles.

My view is primarily their fit and finish has been superb on all the older ones that I've seen and handled. I know they shoot very well also but I don't know that they shoot better than most other modern rifles - back in their day they were highly regarded as shooters though. I preferred semi-auto .22's as a kid otherwise I'm sure I would've found a Model 2 somewhere (I had four semi's and only one bolt-action single-shot .22LR, plus a bolt-action WMR).

I would have to get an old one and a current 452 and spend a few weeks testing 100 different types of ammo through both to determine if either one significantly out-shoots the other. On the rare occasions I venture into a shop I invariably ask if they have any Brno Model 1's or 2's, or a Remington 788 in .222Rem. I haven't come across any in the flesh for sale so far or I would probably own one.

[LawrenceA]

I have owned Brno 1.2 and 5 as well as the CZ's.
They all shoot well.
Basically the model:-
1 started as the TGF which was made for Germany as a military training rifle. It has a machined receiver, 2 stage trigger and leaf sights and the safety points to the rear.
2 has a cast receiver and a Win 70 type trigger with a long leaf rear sight and the safety points to the side.
3 was a target version of the Number 1
4 was a target version of the model 2
5 was the deluxe sporter with a higher standard of finish and fit with a model 2 receiver and model 1 barrel and sights. Considered as the ultimate sporter Brno

There is talk of a Egyptian contract trainer but never seen them or even pictures but these supposedly led to the Number 5.
The big thing with the model one is supposedly the smoothness of the action.

There were other changes to the front sight and rifling, based on production dates, but these are minor.

The CZ's originally had really nice walnut but rough actions and the stocks were bulky compared to the Brno's.

[bigrich]

the older brno's are well made and accurate . and in their day were probably much more accurate than the other 22's available , at that time . which probably contributes to the "legend" of the brno . there is a lot to like about a model 2 , but as stated in a previous post , some brno owners may be a little biased . JMHO

[JimTom]

Dont forget that there may be just a small amount of self interest bias in the answers As anyone that has one is not going to say they are not worth the premium being asked for them.

I agree that perhaps in some cases this may be true mate. I am definitely not in the market to sell my Brno so all I have given is an account of my personal experience with both rifles.
If I was forced to sell one it would be the CZ that would be on the market.

[in2anity]

Everyone scopes them and IMO they aren't good scoped. The high bolt throw means high mount scope, and the comb is already dropping away. Cheek weld suffers. Don't get me wrong, well made little rifle - great with the dovetails, or perhaps even splurge on a rear peep. In reality they aren't any more accurate than many modern entry-level 22s.

[bigrich]

Everyone scopes them and IMO they aren't good scoped. The high bolt throw means high mount scope, and the comb is already dropping away. Cheek weld suffers. Don't get me wrong, well made little rifle - great with the dovetails, or perhaps even splurge on a rear peep. In reality they aren't any more accurate than many modern entry-level 22s.

old brno's are all steel and well made , as are krico's and anschutz. this has more appeal than modern to me .

took me years to accept tikka t3's over model 70's

[6mm Remington]

Can the people who are asserting that the old Brno rifles are superior further elaborate as to why, and how to tell? For various reasons, I have not had the chance to physically inspect (let alone use) a Model 2 or compare one with newer CZ rifles.

I own a 1964 model 2 that has had a ton of lead through it.
Still shoots better than I can. Very accurate rifle. Will knock out an eyeball up to 100 metres.
One thing to note is that a bore snake is hard to pull through the muzzle end of the barrel.
This suggests that the barrels might be slightly choked to enhance accuracy.
I once read an article about GSA suppressors where their gunsmith refused to thread a model 2 barrel.

[Bill]

Only ever owned one Brno ( ZKM 468 which i got cheap, restored and flipped) as I found the price to fun factor hard to stomach.

I did use a mates old 60s Model 2 once and shot more than 20 bunnies in afternoon walk and found it to be a lovely mini mauser style rimfire and easy to hit bunnies out to 100 paces with a 4x scope.

At 50m indoors I found my 1930 target Mauser 22lr would shoot 6-8mm groups consistently and easily out shoot anything Brno or CZ ever made

[dnedative]

I've got a Norinco JW25A, Chinese rip off of a Brno 452; It shot only slightly worse (and sometimes on par) than the CZ455 I had which I was really surprised by.

I suspect the lore comes from the fact the early ones were really well made, nicely machined, finished and they shot as well as modern rifles back then when a lot of the competition didn't so its understandable why people have good memories of them.

[solarpak]

I have just been looking to add a 22WMR to the safe and naturally chose the CZ452 a they were the last of the CZ rimfires with the barrel screwed into the receiver.
Th biggest issue a always when looking at at used CZ - be it a 452 or the old Brno's - condition and looking at the rifle close -up. Pictures can fool you and a gun advertised as VGC or better can end up being below par.
You will pay a premium for a excellent older Brno or early CZ - but an excellent investment - as are the older Brno ZKK and CZ 550 centre fire rifles!!
C

[deye243]

I've heard various people allege that the Brno Model 2 is better built or more accurate than its CZ 45X descendants, and its reputation often commands a premium on the used market. Are any of these claims true, or are they products of nostalgia bias?

I've also seen the Model 1 and Model 5 in lesser numbers on the used market, but can anyone tell me if their differing features make a lot of difference in practice?

With what I have seen between myself and my mates in the last 10 years I don't think so .
yes they are better finished off better machines but accuracy nothing in it

[JimTom]

I have already stated in a previous post that my old mod 2 BRNO out shoots my CZ 457, however I think it only fair to provide another example.
My Dad has an old 601 BRNO 308, and my newer CZ 557 absolutely blows it out of the water for accuracy.
So two different experiences for me.

[bladeracer]

I've got a Norinco JW25A, Chinese rip off of a Brno 452; It shot only slightly worse (and sometimes on par) than the CZ455 I had which I was really surprised by.

I suspect the lore comes from the fact the early ones were really well made, nicely machined, finished and they shot as well as modern rifles back then when a lot of the competition didn't so its understandable why people have good memories of them.

My JW25A is possibly my most accurate .22LR currently.

[jwai86]

My JW25A is possibly my most accurate .22LR currently.

Putting aside the issues you encountered with the iron sights, right?

[bladeracer]

My JW25A is possibly my most accurate .22LR currently.

Putting aside the issues you encountered with the iron sights, right?

Yes, the rifle is very accurate.
The OEM are sights are also very good, but only at one specific distance

I'm working on modifying the sight ramp to make the sight usefully adjustable - it's currently "adjustable" but doesn't change the point of impact significantly.

Lots of other owners swear by them but I've never heard anybody mention the lack of sight adjustment, so perhaps it's just my example, or they only use them scoped.

[dnedative]

Only bought mine because years ago I picked up a very nice 1930's Hendsoldt Ziel-jagd 4x scope out of Germany that didn't have soldered on claw mounts. Came with the original leather carrying case, it was never on a K98 but they were used and its the right vintage so perfect for a replica build one day I thought.

Spent about 3 weeks mounting it, first attempt was with some cheap rings bored out to 26mm, thought I could just shim the dovetail to get the windage zeroed. Didn't work, thought it was because the rings were cheap and the center of the ring and the center of the dovetail was off. Tried with some sportsmatch and it was close but could never get it perfectly inline with the bore. Ended up shelling out and doing it to some adjustable sportsmatch rings and its now on the money.

Cut the main spring down because I can only assume the chinese shoot steel case 22LR with how much force it had.
Trigger job, ground and polished the sear, polished the cocking piece on the bolt. Nothing crazy, on par with what a new CZ would feel like.
Split the stock banging the butt on the carpeted floor checking the trigger safety, not sure what timber it is but I'll call it Chinese beach wood because that must of been where they found it. Gave the crown a bit of a polish.

Rifle was covered in some nasty horrible brown dog s**t finish when I got it, couldn't find a chemical that would effectively remove it so had to sand the entire finish off the stock then stained and oiled it (base timber is blond) so it actually looks correct.

Shoots good, shot a PRS 22 match with it ages ago and didn't come last.
Also had a modern scope on it for accuracy testing lol

[bladeracer]

Have you tried the irons on yours? My front post flops from side to side in the dovetail - I need to put a couple of punch marks in the base of it to give it some friction. But the rear ramp does nothing to alter the height of the sight.

I did nothing to mine but I bought it secondhand so I don't know what may have been done in the past, it doesn't feel like it's been altered at all.

Only bought mine because years ago I picked up a very nice 1930's Hendsoldt Ziel-jagd 4x scope out of Germany that didn't have soldered on claw mounts. Came with the original leather carrying case, it was never on a K98 but they were used and its the right vintage so perfect for a replica build one day I thought.

Spent about 3 weeks mounting it, first attempt was with some cheap rings bored out to 26mm, thought I could just shim the dovetail to get the windage zeroed. Didn't work, thought it was because the rings were cheap and the center of the ring and the center of the dovetail was off. Tried with some sportsmatch and it was close but could never get it perfectly inline with the bore. Ended up shelling out and doing it to some adjustable sportsmatch rings and its now on the money.

Cut the main spring down because I can only assume the chinese shoot steel case 22LR with how much force it had.
Trigger job, ground and polished the sear, polished the cocking piece on the bolt. Nothing crazy, on par with what a new CZ would feel like.
Split the stock banging the butt on the carpeted floor checking the trigger safety, not sure what timber it is but I'll call it Chinese beach wood because that must of been where they found it. Gave the crown a bit of a polish.

Rifle was covered in some nasty horrible brown dog s**t finish when I got it, couldn't find a chemical that would effectively remove it so had to sand the entire finish off the stock then stained and oiled it (base timber is blond) so it actually looks correct.

Shoots good, shot a PRS 22 match with it ages ago and didn't come last.
Also had a modern scope on it for accuracy testing lol

[dnedative]

Never shot it open;
Front is tight, aint moving
Rear is pretty dodgy, the elevation at 200 drops to the same as 25 so f***ing good luck if you slide it all the way up.
Does go up, not by much

Took a photo for you

[bladeracer]

Yep, same as mine.
Don't know why I have never seen anybody else mention it then.
Apparently the rifle is fairly commonly seen at military training rifle competition so it must be common knowledge that the sight has no elevation adjustment.

Never shot it open;
Front is tight, aint moving
Rear is pretty dodgy, the elevation at 200 drops to the same as 25 so f***ing good luck if you slide it all the way up.
Does go up, not by much

Took a photo for you

[Bill]

FMD Ive seen straighter banana's