Possible Causes Of Horizontal Stringing

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Possible Causes Of Horizontal Stringing

Post by Gaznazdiak » 27 Nov 2018, 1:07 pm

I'm a bit confused again. Seems to be more often lately, maybe senility setting in.

After finding what seemed the "best" load for the 55gr Roo Max, 11 rabbits in 2 days with the bullets right where I wanted them, including two at 244m and 258m respectively(the two dots betond the log pile in the circle, 1st pic), I went out this morning to check how my store bought splash targets go and ended up with the 3 shots I fired (from the same batch as the rabbit shots) in a horizontal string 4 inches across at 200m(2nd pic)
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Dead calm with not a breath of wind, shooting off the bonnet and trying to be as stable as possible and I end up with a counter intuitive result.

I've spent the last 3hrs reading all sorts of sources and it seems to come down to 3 main contenders; seating depth, trigger finger placement/technique and trigger pull weight. I have seated them to the canalure.

The trigger weight is something I have been considering for a while, which led me to 2 clear camps of opinion; easy done if careful to follow the steps and OMG no, gunsmith only job.

So, I'm after a little advice, again.

PS:
All the rabbits except one were shot from prone.

PPS: The trigger is in my Howa 1500
:drinks:
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Re: Possible Causes Of Horizontal Stringing

Post by Stix » 27 Nov 2018, 1:16 pm

Sorry Gaz, cant help--i sometimes get this random crap happening too, so im keen to hear the ideas...
Although many people suggest its "the shooter", i personally think its something else.

Is the scope a proven reliable scope...? Is the best ive got atm...

And thats dam fine shootin Gaz...dam fine...!!! :thumbsup:
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Re: Possible Causes Of Horizontal Stringing

Post by Gaznazdiak » 27 Nov 2018, 1:31 pm

Thanks Stix, I was getting pretty damn pleased with my self, hence the confusion at the string. Pride before the fall and all that biblical stuff :roll:

One of the suggestions on another forum(to another's similar question) was to practice dry firing while taking note of the movement of the reticle on the bull in response to finger placement and pull technique. The same respondent suggested that the heavier the trigger, the more effect bad technique will have on the outcome.

The good news, Huey's looking set to piss down on my plans for further testing this afternoon. :D
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Re: Possible Causes Of Horizontal Stringing

Post by grandadbushy » 27 Nov 2018, 1:57 pm

Yeah Gaz never had a heavy night last night mate ? :lol: :lol: :lol: :drinks:
Mate try it not on the bonnet somewhere else I had a similar thing with the 22-250 but it stopped when I shot from elsewhere
so I just put it down to the bonnet being slippery other than that mate ''don't know''
As was said before be interesting to hear some replies :thumbsup:
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Re: Possible Causes Of Horizontal Stringing

Post by Gaznazdiak » 27 Nov 2018, 2:16 pm

grandadbushy wrote:Yeah Gaz never had a heavy night last night mate ? :lol: :lol: :lol: :drinks:
Mate try it not on the bonnet somewhere else I had a similar thing with the 22-250 but it stopped when I shot from elsewhere
so I just put it down to the bonnet being slippery other than that mate ''don't know''
As was said before be interesting to hear some replies :thumbsup:



:lol: :lol: :lol:

No Granddad, unfortunately I haven't even got that excuse :oops:

Maybe I need one of these bad boys, although I'd settle for the $20,000+ price tag in my pocket instead.

https://www.tracking-point.com/

:drinks:
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Re: Possible Causes Of Horizontal Stringing

Post by Stix » 27 Nov 2018, 3:11 pm

Gaznazdiak wrote:Thanks Stix, I was getting pretty damn pleased with my self, hence the confusion at the string. Pride before the fall and all that biblical stuff :roll:

One of the suggestions on another forum(to another's similar question) was to practice dry firing while taking note of the movement of the reticle on the bull in response to finger placement and pull technique. The same respondent suggested that the heavier the trigger, the more effect bad technique will have on the outcome.

The good news, Huey's looking set to piss down on my plans for further testing this afternoon. :D


Gaz mate..i dry fire before ALL long shots & watch for that reticle movement...
If i get movement 3 times in a row (without me moving other than to lift & lower bolt) i move position--i find it is more shoulder placement than trigger... (but thats not to lower the importance of trigger technique).
Fwiw, i believe you need some tension on trigger hand...minimal but some... (thats what works for me)

As soon as i get no movement i chamber a round without moving shoulder head or elbows...then squeeze off...

Whilst a light trigger is the go, im a believer that practising on a 2-3lb trigger to be very useful...!!!
If you can get a consistant pull with no ill effects on movement/POI from trigger, you will be well placed when it comes to a light trigger---in other words the movent you encounter from a average trigger weight almost forces you to find correct technique... :thumbsup: (i hope that makes sense,thats my experience).
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Re: Possible Causes Of Horizontal Stringing

Post by Gaznazdiak » 27 Nov 2018, 4:58 pm

Thanks Stix.

I hadn't even thought of "trigger practice", I thought that sort of thing was only for the fly shooters. Ignorance rears its head again.

One thing I have noticed, particularly over 20x magnification, is heartbeat moving aim point around. One of the reasons I rarely use any higher, I have been trying to time my shots accordingly.

One thing against shooting from the bonnet, I can't load the bipod. When I'm prone, with plenty of load on the legs, even heartbeats tend to be less of an issue.

With that load being so successful on Tony Rabbott when prone, it has to be technique and body position when going off the bonnet.

I have been considering one of those shooting rests like the Eagle Eye, below. That may help with isolating my shakes and twiches but pointless if it's my triggering causing the aberrant results.

Going to try some dry fires and see. :thumbsup:
:drinks:
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Re: Possible Causes Of Horizontal Stringing

Post by Stix » 27 Nov 2018, 5:22 pm

Try one of these over the bonnet mate...

http://www.straightshooterfirearms.com. ... -p67619806

thats what i use all the time now because i used to get way too much incosistancy with loading up (or even not loading up) bipod legs off of different foundations.

I use one of these with very little shoulder pressure & little to no muscle tension...heart beat be gone (most of the time).

I filled mine with recycled granulated plastic--very light (compared to rice or sand) & doesnt go mouldy if gets a bit wet.

It is my "fox spotlighting bipod"...see eyes, pull up, bag over bonnet, squirt the whistle if ness, send a spinning lump of metals to the fox...then listen for the wack...!!

Might be worth a try... :unknown:
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Re: Possible Causes Of Horizontal Stringing

Post by Gaznazdiak » 27 Nov 2018, 5:32 pm

That looks like a purler, and less than 20% of the price of the other as well.

Thanks man, I'll do some retail therapy tonight. :thumbsup:

Seems Huey was only teasing, although I'll probably end up mincing about setting up and he'll change his mind.
That would be a win anyway
:drinks:

Just had a thought though, with the action mounted in the chassis I can't load without the mag in.
Gee, guess I'll have to get a rear bag as well.
The therapy goes on :D
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Re: Possible Causes Of Horizontal Stringing

Post by SCJ429 » 27 Nov 2018, 5:56 pm

It is hard to see what the problem is from one target with three shots on it. Assuming that the rifle is bedded and the action screws are tight. You say it was not the wind, so it has to be the shooter, like you said the middle of the finger pad each time on the trigger and don't grip the pistol grip with you thumb. Make sure you have a consistant cheek weld, try shooting a group of five without moving you cheek off the stock or loosing your view through the scope.

Do you have the same problem shooting off a bench at the range or just off a bonnet of your car?
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Re: Possible Causes Of Horizontal Stringing

Post by Gaznazdiak » 27 Nov 2018, 7:08 pm

G'day SCJ,
Thanks for the tips :thumbsup:

I don't go to the range as such, I'm lucky enough to live on a large grazing property and have the room to setup targets to 500m if I wanted, however I don't hunt at much over 250 as a rule.

The action is in an XLR chassis, nice and tight, scope is ok, load seems to be ok, so I think it's technique.

One possible problem, going by your tips, is a habit I picked up some time ago when I was going to the range, when I wanted to see if I had the ability to compete in F Class.

Range rules prohibited the loading of magazines, seems everyone had single shot target rifles.
Usually, 1 shot and the rabbits scatter back underground so I have plenty of time to reload to give the next customer the good news.

That's what I did this morning, breaking contact to load each subsequent shot.

I have some wobbles and shakes so I only ever shoot prone or off the bonnet and only seem to have trouble there.
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Re: Possible Causes Of Horizontal Stringing

Post by SCJ429 » 27 Nov 2018, 9:59 pm

If you and the rifle shoot well in the prone position then it is understandable that you have some problems getting your head into the same position every time when shooting off a bonnet which is not an ideal shooting position. I have issues doing this when shooting uphill and my body is flat or slightly downhill. I am not very flexible these days.
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Re: Possible Causes Of Horizontal Stringing

Post by marksman » 28 Nov 2018, 10:33 am

I've been away Gaz so I'm jumping in a bit late
while away I had some time to do a bit of reading and got stuck into some of the wisdom of Gail mcmillan
here is a quote from a post he did

Posted: 12-18-1999 06:57 PM
If the ultimate accuracy is your object then don't use a bipod. It will work fairly well but is not the best way to shoot because you won't shoulder the
weapon the same way every time and it won't drag back the same way every shot.. That is the reason the Marine scout snipers shoot off a padded
ammo can. I personally like a pedestal front and a set of rabbit ear rear bags for prone just like you were going to use it on a bench. Always keep the
bags powdered to make them slid the same every shot. Now having said all that I will say that bipod are much more convenient and when it is only a
prairie dogs life at stake I will use a bipod

the reason I have put this up is to show what a master barrel/rifle/accuracy builder thought on using rest's
the rest you have posted the photo of will not work for the reason that the rifle cannot recoil freely the same every time
it will drag against where it sits and pull off sight, I'm afraid the same can be said for Stix's straight shooter bag unless the rifle can slip freely when recoiling
when the rifle drags it will pull to a side and jump in the rest, you will not get the best precision, shooting off a bonnet can be pretty wobbly as well
as said in the quote powdering the bag with talcum powder will help the rifle slide the same every shot if you want ultimate accuracy
I use bags with a soft slippery top for testing/sighting ect but a bipod for shooting
the horizontal stringing could be an unstable rest ect :drinks:
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Re: Possible Causes Of Horizontal Stringing

Post by Gaznazdiak » 28 Nov 2018, 10:48 am

Thanks Marksman,
Every little bit of advice helps when you're on the low end of the learning curve.

I had been thinking what a pain in the bum it would be dragging that frame around.

I think I'll give that bag rest a try, it's only $30, but will keep the "slippery" advice in mind.

:drinks:
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Re: Possible Causes Of Horizontal Stringing

Post by Stix » 28 Nov 2018, 11:55 am

The tikka T3 synth stock i use is a pretty smooth item, & i find the bag i use is a thousand times better than a bipod in terms of consistant recoil--its just not as convenient... :thumbsdown:

I also spent couple hundred bucks on what i thought was a decent front rest & got a bucket load of horizontal happenings...used it twice & now it gathers dust... :thumbsdown:
There are various reasons for this, but i believe a big factor is how light weight these modern rifles are, & i think this makes learning to manage recoil a bit harder.

Gaz-Re the bag, you will find it may take a bit of use until the fill you use settles into the bag & gives a good consistant shape--even with regular use you may find it still settling six or more months later..i found.until this happens the recoil was sometimes still inconsistant as marksman says with grabby areas...however with my bag/stock combo i found shoulder tension a far greater variable than the grabby bits on the bag.

One way i avoid this & it works with the T3 stock is to put a microfibre cloth in the top of the bag...my stock then glides through the top channel in the bag like a puk on ice... :thumbsup:

As for a rear bag i use a sock filled with the plastic i mentioned earlier--but i find you have to set the up nice & symetrically for good even recoil--not the "best" rear rest for testing but a reasonable one in the field that costs zippoh...!!

Also, if trying this naturally remove any strap/sling & take out the sling attachment doova's...

I also found it very helpful to give the bag a good smack down so it settles well & smack the rifle a few times in the top of the bag channel if doing testing--that way the bag wont settle "AS" you work through different charge weights & you're shooting off constant 'hardness'.

But let me be clear--im NOT at all suggesting this is "THE BEST" way to go for a rest...im merely suggesting as a cheap altrrnative & i can honestly say it has extended my range by a good 80 yds with a higher kill rate on bunnies & foxes for that quickly jump out the car over the bonnet shot... :thumbsup:

When i used to shoot off a bipod i would get varying amounts of muzzle jump & recoil direction depending on the surface shooting off of & how evenly you load up the legs--but now whether i shoot off bonnet ground tree or fencepost with this bag OR with my rear bag (sock filled with plastic granules) the recoil is more consistant & more heads burst..

Im not knocking bipods, just better results off a bag for my kind of shooting which is mostly driving around & sitting at a warren for 20 mins then move on to the next.

Ultimately there are far better shooters & greater professional experience in this thread compared to me, so certainly take their advice over mine Gaz. :thumbsup:
But ive no doubt you will get crackingly better results with that bag as i had some similar issues as you before i tried the bag set-up.

Hope im of some help even if it means you using/trying a different approach.sometimes hearing peoples experience gives you ideas in the opposite direction that work for you..& sometimes they just babble too much crap like me... :lol: . :thumbsup:
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Re: Possible Causes Of Horizontal Stringing

Post by Gaznazdiak » 28 Nov 2018, 12:34 pm

Like you Stix, most of my shooting is lurking in the car overlooking a warren, so it sounds like it's worth the $30 to try it out.

One thing I forgot to ask, what sort of plastic granules are you using, and where did you get them.
That's two things, but I'm feely greedy :D
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Re: Possible Causes Of Horizontal Stringing

Post by Stix » 28 Nov 2018, 1:21 pm

Feelin greedy eh...?

Well if ye daunt eet yarrrh-meet, ya cant hahv'enee pood'n...so hooow cun ye'hahv ani pood'n if ye daunt eet yarrrh' meet...
Hhmmmm...

I think they are recyled pvc...certainly recycled plastic of some sort.

Cant remember where i got em from as ive had em a few good years now.

But it was from an industrial business that pelletises the plastic & sells it on to plastic manufacturing mobs.

Try google 'recycled granulated plastic' &/or similar word mixes.

When i was chasing it, i did get on to a guy that was gonna give me some for free--he exports it & said to meet him at the wharf & he'd let me grab a few buckets...but he was overseas when i needed it so i bought it elsewhere. (Adelaide metro area)
Naturally ive misplaced his number as i could do with more now... :roll:

Sorry cant be of more help...ill have a look later & see if i can find details again.
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Re: Possible Causes Of Horizontal Stringing

Post by TassieTiger » 28 Nov 2018, 2:02 pm

My one bobs worth - apart from everything else that’s been said.
I’ve only taken a few shots actoss bonnet or tailgate of my navara 4wd and the reason is - the suspension moves when you lean on it and it can settle at different points in its damping stroke. I can line a shot up with a gun vice, do something in the car, come back and the scope is no longer on target.
How quick were shots made, could it be hot barrel?
I also have a theory on windless days - at my property there can be zero wind, but that does not stop the occasion tonado/dust devil from dancing around—- there is no doubt many flying around that cannot be seen...especially open land.
Are all screws in mounts still at the exact same pressure they were - locked down...I’m slowly learning recoil is the bastard of mounts/rings. Even .1mm at scope can mean an inch difference down range.
Talk of bipods not being the most accurate might be right, but from the target your taking 2-3 inches from shot 1 to shot 2...this is not a bipod issue for my mind as bipod inaccuracies come in at much tighter groups.

So many variables...
I’d set up a few different targets - try various positions, get some more data and evaluate that.
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