Very Disappointed in my CZ 455. Is my 1st Rifle Faulty?

[Tomek]

I took the rifle to the shop today and many of the things they suggested, including good ammo types, V front rest, many shots, switching rifles etc., I've already tried. They said the gun needs up to 50 bullets to foul properly, well, I shot aver 120!. So now I need to shoot a few hundred before it's "broken in".

They loosened my trigger and checked all the bolts and scope. Said the rings were good. They suggested I use a rear sandbag so I'll try that next time. Hopefully I can get an experienced shooter as well. I will try some RWS, and Elley Club/Sport/Match ammo I bought a well as CCI, Federal and Remington from last time (all subsonic). I will try tighten the action bolts, as well a loosen them too. Will also try the sandbags. EDIT: Will also try breaking in the scope, thanks Elmer.

I really hope it fixes up but I have a feeling that it's a lemon rifle and I'm glad Australia has good consumer laws to help with such things. It shouldn't be 2 inch at 50m fussy with 4 ammo brands. And I don't quite believe the "it takes a few hundred" rounds advice as if that was the case, the internet would be full of people like me complaining about their 2 inch groupings. Instead, everyone's loving their dime sized spreads lol.

Looking forward to the weekend and will keep you updated.

[Wm.Traynor]

If you have not been using a rear bag then you need one. That being the case, then I surmise that you don't know a lot about "benchrest- technique". Perhaps you could find a tutorial on youtube.

[Wylie27]

Tomek, where are you located? Youvin sydney by any chance?

If you are come out to St Mary's indoor on the weekend and I can try and help you out.

[rsj223]

I took the rifle to the shop today and many of the things they suggested, including good ammo types, V front rest, many shots, switching rifles etc., I've already tried. They said the gun needs up to 50 bullets to foul properly, well, I shot aver 120!. So now I need to shoot a few hundred before it's "broken in".

They loosened my trigger and checked all the bolts and scope. Said the rings were good. They suggested I use a rear sandbag so I'll try that next time. Hopefully I can get an experienced shooter as well. I will try some RWS, and Elley Club/Sport/Match ammo I bought a well as CCI, Federal and Remington from last time (all subsonic). I will try tighten the action bolts, as well a loosen them too. Will also try the sandbags. EDIT: Will also try breaking in the scope, thanks Elmer.

I really hope it fixes up but I have a feeling that it's a lemon rifle and I'm glad Australia has good consumer laws to help with such things. It shouldn't be 2 inch at 50m fussy with 4 ammo brands. And I don't quite believe the "it takes a few hundred" rounds advice as if that was the case, the internet would be full of people like me complaining about their 2 inch groupings. Instead, everyone's loving their dime sized spreads lol.

Looking forward to the weekend and will keep you updated.

I feel for you as I went through similar with a Lithgow.22, I dont think the bags will change it much as you shot your partners ok on the same setup, all the different ammo may help but you might find it likes $25 a box ammo and thats not what you got it for, at the end of the day the bit of paper that came with the rifle says it all.
Can you post up a picture of the ones you shot and what came with the rifle.
It may be as simple as it needs a few hundred rounds to settle but chin up your just at the start.

[brett1868]

As an add on to Elmer's scope comment cause it's an excellent point he makes. If I need to dial in 4 clicks, I'll dial 6 then come back 2 just so the reticle gets exercised in both directions
Something of my own to add, get yourself a torque wrench and be consistent with how tight to do things up. Google or YouTube should be able to provide the required torque's for your particular firearm. Rifle "Accurizing" is something you may wish to read about as it provides some valuable info on improving a rifles accuracy.
Ammo....if your rifle is anything like my 22's it'll have expensive tastes and prefer European labels such as RWS or Lapua brands. Sorta defeats the purpose of a 22 being cheap to feed

[Tomek]

I will be going to the Springvale range in Victoria so can't meet any Sydney siders haha.

I will update you after the weekend but for now, here is the last target (around the 100 round mark) as well as the paper that came with it. Since my rifle doesn't have iron sights, they would have used a scope. I don't need to tell you which side is which rifle, but the circled targets are when we swapped shooters. Ass you can see, i was able to place my shots very close together with the other rifle. These are groups of 10 shots though so you can't see the 5 group shots when we took them. But the spray pattern on my rifle gives you an idea..

I always aim for the middle too, not trying to compensate at anytime. The bottom right was the initial shot of the last target and was strangely shaped.

[Wm.Traynor]

Tomek,
a) There is vertical dispersion in your Test target and in the groups that you shot

b) In the Test target, there is little horizontal dispersion because it was probably fired in a wind tunnel.I would ignore the HD in your groups because you might not have had a lot of practice at reading wind yet. So that leaves the vertical dispersion to be dealt with.
c) IMO, your rifle was not bedded properly at the factory. The Test target tells that story which is supported by the VD in your groups. Have the bedding tested and fixed.

[Tomek]

Tomek,
a) There is vertical dispersion in your Test target and in the groups that you shot

b) In the Test target, there is little horizontal dispersion because it was probably fired in a wind tunnel.I would ignore the HD in your groups because you might not have had a lot of practice at reading wind yet. So that leaves the vertical dispersion to be dealt with.
c) IMO, your rifle was not bedded properly at the factory. The Test target tells that story which is supported by the VD in your groups. Have the bedding tested and fixed.

Thanks

The range has walls on both sides so I don't think the wind played much part. It wasn't a windy day either. Anyway, I'll have a look at some videos of checking the bedding and go from there. Really looking forward to testing all these changes / adjustments on the weekend!

I forgot to ask if the shop looked at the bedding. He was at the back for a good 5 minutes.

[Tomek]

@Wm.Traynor

I checked the bedding. I am able to slide a $50 bill all the way up around the barrel between the stock without catching anything. Not sure if that's enough.

[Wm.Traynor]

@Wm.Traynor

I checked the bedding. I am able to slide a $50 bill all the way up around the barrel between the stock without catching anything. Not sure if that's enough.

No, sorry mate, it isn't. That test will only tell you that the barrel floats............a little. But more on that later.
A floated barrel is a good thing IMO but you also need to know how the action is bedded. That is, the barrel might float but if there is a high spot between the action-take-down screws, then you will [IMO] get vertical stringing. The test is very simple, although some use a dial gauge indicator. It is difficult to explain in writing, however but it involves tightening and loosening the take-down screws. I got the feeling from one of your posts that you are not so keen on this kind of thing so I won't go in to it. If you are not into it you will have to go to a gunsmith.

As for testing the barrel float, you have made a good start but a $50 note is very thin and I don't know if that much clearance is enough. For instance, target rifle barrels have 3mm clearance. Of course, that would be very ugly on your rifle. Another point; clearance along the sides of the barrel does not have to be as much as the clearance along the bottom because the barrel vibrates more in the vertical plane, than it does in the horizontal.

To cut a long story short, have the action bedding checked. If it is OK, make the barrel channel deeper In Front Of where the barrel is bedded. You might see some dark marks in the channel which should be removed if you are doing it yourself. If the action and barrel bedding are OK, then the problem lies with your benchrest technique (need a rear bag?) or your scope and/or mounts.

[Tomek]

Thanks again for the info. I also just checked the parallax. I can only check at 30m max at home but it does seem to move a maximum ~ 0.4 inch between max left and right. and there's no adjustment. I will keep this in mind next time I go shooting to make sure I'm not shooting from the edge of sight. Will also compare to the range scope.

This is mine: http://athlonoptics.com/product/neos-3- ... 2-rimfire/
Probbaly too cheap but shouldn't be useless lol.

As for the bedding and all that, if I have to spend $100-$200 fixing the rifle, doesn't it count as faulty enough for a refund / exchange? Although the guy at the shop did take a good 5 minutes checking the rifle so he may have checked it already. I am open to tightening and loosening the action bolts on the rifle though to see how it affects things.

[Wm.Traynor]

Tomek,
I don't know your scope and cannot express an opinion, however keeping your head/eye at the centre of the ocular lens is the right idea. If you move your head close to the lens you will see a black ring around the image. Centre your eye so that the width of the ring is the same all the way round. Then move your head back a bit to give you more field of view.

It is best if you watch a demonstration of checking the bedding but I will try to explain it. Assuming you are right handed, place the butt on a solid surface so that the barrel is about vertical. Adjust the take-down bolts so that they are both snug. Hold the rifle with the left hand at the fore end tip. Position your hand so that the fore finger is Gently touching both barrel and stock. This position is important. When you tighten the front bolt, your finger will feel the barrel will move. The lighter you are touching with your finger, the better. A strong grip will be insensitive and will detect nothing. There are more accurate ways to detect movement but they are expensive tools to buy. A gunsmith would tell you but not immediately. Speaking of 'smiths, it might be an idea to locate an approved one in your area. I have a suspicion that he would be the one to advise you about a refund etc.
BTW, you can perform the same test using the rear bolt.
There is more to learn about the meaning of the direction of the barrel's movement but that would only complicate things for you. This little trick takes practice and patience, so take some deep breaths and avoid All Distractions

Good Luck mate

[Tomek]

Tomek,
I don't know your scope and cannot express an opinion, however keeping your head/eye at the centre of the ocular lens is the right idea. If you move your head close to the lens you will see a black ring around the image. Centre your eye so that the width of the ring is the same all the way round. Then move your head back a bit to give you more field of view.

It is best if you watch a demonstration of checking the bedding but I will try to explain it. Assuming you are right handed, place the butt on a solid surface so that the barrel is about vertical. Adjust the take-down bolts so that they are both snug. Hold the rifle with the left hand at the fore end tip. Position your hand so that the fore finger is Gently touching both barrel and stock. This position is important. When you tighten the front bolt, your finger will feel the barrel will move. The lighter you are touching with your finger, the better. A strong grip will be insensitive and will detect nothing. There are more accurate ways to detect movement but they are expensive tools to buy. A gunsmith would tell you but not immediately. Speaking of 'smiths, it might be an idea to locate an approved one in your area. I have a suspicion that he would be the one to advise you about a refund etc.
BTW, you can perform the same test using the rear bolt.
There is more to learn about the meaning of the direction of the barrel's movement but that would only complicate things for you. This little trick takes practice and patience, so take some deep breaths and avoid All Distractions

Good Luck mate

Thanks again²

I will try this method although what am I aiming for exactly when I feel this movement of the barrel as I play with the bolts? Is movement bad? Or do I tighten to the exact point taht the movement stops?

[Wm.Traynor]

Good Question. Movement means that your rifle needs bedding. If the barrel moves toward the fore end tip, when you tighten, then there is a high spot between the take-down bolts. It is Very Difficult to detect the direction of movement. Just take small steps for now. It is enough that you detect movement.

Don't forget that the presence of oil between the stock and where it contacts the action/barrel, is also a cause of V D. If you take your gun apart, remove it completely from both stock and metal.

BTW, I don't see why you would be penalised for taking the gun apart, after all the Handbook shows how to strip the bolt and a spanner is provided to adjust the tension on the trigger spring. If that isn't meant to encourage you to dismantle things, then I don't know what is. Go for it mate

[alan j]

The 455 instruction says to tighten the action screws to 5 nm or whatever it is. I did this and cracked the stock it is way to tight, so dont follow this instruction. Winchester sent another stock under warranty. Amazingly they agreed this was way to tight and an error by CZ.

[Cooper]

I own a CZ455 multi barrel (22lr-22mag-17hmr) I bought a wheeler fax max tension wrench quite early on. As mine seemed a little inconsistent. I was swapping barrels abit. Rim fire central forum has lots info. I also own CZ452 22lr which shots really well. Probably just better than CZ455. I wouldn't over complicate it buying ten different sorts of ammo. Probably 5 different sorts max at the start. Mine are only hunting rifles and I've always used Winchester power point (hollow points) recently switched to the 42 max version and am quite happy.

[POD89]

Tomek,
I don't know your scope and cannot express an opinion, however keeping your head/eye at the centre of the ocular lens is the right idea. If you move your head close to the lens you will see a black ring around the image. Centre your eye so that the width of the ring is the same all the way round. Then move your head back a bit to give you more field of view.

It is best if you watch a demonstration of checking the bedding but I will try to explain it. Assuming you are right handed, place the butt on a solid surface so that the barrel is about vertical. Adjust the take-down bolts so that they are both snug. Hold the rifle with the left hand at the fore end tip. Position your hand so that the fore finger is Gently touching both barrel and stock. This position is important. When you tighten the front bolt, your finger will feel the barrel will move. The lighter you are touching with your finger, the better. A strong grip will be insensitive and will detect nothing. There are more accurate ways to detect movement but they are expensive tools to buy. A gunsmith would tell you but not immediately. Speaking of 'smiths, it might be an idea to locate an approved one in your area. I have a suspicion that he would be the one to advise you about a refund etc.
BTW, you can perform the same test using the rear bolt.
There is more to learn about the meaning of the direction of the barrel's movement but that would only complicate things for you. This little trick takes practice and patience, so take some deep breaths and avoid All Distractions


this is a nifty little trick.
Cheers for taking the time to post that. I'm gonna try it on my rifles.

Good Luck mate

[southeast varmiter]

All in the action screws. I got a torque wrench and went through 5 inch pound increments on Friday. My cheap ass jw15 now shoots well with any ammo you can find, just need a different torque setting.
Buying dozens of boxes of ammo is a bit of a myth me thinks.
P.s. same for my new 6.5mm it's all in the bedding harmonic

[Wm.Traynor]

southeast varmiter,
That's a Very Interesting post. Reading between the lines, I interpret it to mean that you "compensate" for the forces that the stock exerts on the action and barrel, by tweaking the screws.
My first impression is that it could save a Lot of time cutting back the high points in the bedding. It took me days, I don't mind telling you.

Whatever works for ya mate

[Gwion]

Still with WM on this one.

Take the rifle out of the stock and look for shiny rub marks. Uneven bedding and screws too tight theoretically explains all the issues.

With the test target and the comparison targets with the range rifle, I don't think shooting technique is the major issue, although was can all always improve on that.

Scope is a definite possibility but sounds more likely bedding.

[Gwion]

southeast varmiter,
That's a Very Interesting post. Reading between the lines, I interpret it to mean that you "compensate" for the forces that the stock exerts on the action and barrel, by tweaking the screws.
My first impression is that it could save a Lot of time cutting back the high points in the bedding. It took me days, I don't mind telling you.

Whatever works for ya mate

Even after point bedding under front and rear of the action, my little old Sportco 22lr still shoots best with less torque on the tear screw than the front. Spending a half hour tuning the screws and recording the settings is well worth the effort with a lot of rifles. Before pillar and full epoxy bedding, my 223rem also benefitted from a little screw tuning.

[Elmer]

Hey Tomek, have you got that CZ sorted?

[Tomek]

Hey Tomek, have you got that CZ sorted?

Sadly no.. The shop actually took it and tested it for me. Said it was fine, showed me the targets and yes, they looked great with Eley Sport (< .5 inch). So I go back to the range with a new target scope 6x24x50 Athlon. First 3 mags hell yeah, this is good! Maybe I can go hunting next week! I decide to try and adjust the rear action bolt to learn how this stuff works.., just a little bit (1/6 to 1.8 rotation) and BANG, my scope zero moves right an inch and the group goes from 0.5 to 1inch+. Putting the screw back to its previous position, playing with many other configurations, trying different ammo.. nope. back to 1 inch+ and a drifting zero.

I dunno if it was the action screws since I moved them ever so slightly. It really just fit in with my previous experience of first 2-3 magz fine, everything after that crap. That's like all my 5 times in a row. I started using a rear rest in the middle of the day but not much help even though I felt it was much more stable. I kept playing with the action bolts throughout the day and only on the last mag as the range closed, my CCI subsonics grouped pretty good. But I wasn't able to try again (may have been luck as I do sometimes get some nice 3 rounds a bit to the right, followed by a spray to the left) and now I'm afraid to take it apart in case I got some magic amount of tension on the bolts. I'll see how I go next time, but if it stuffs up after the first 3 mags again, I might take it apart at the range to check the bedding and even the barrel screws there.

Other people tried to shoot it as well but still no good. They cannot explain why I keep losing accuracy after warming up. They just end up blaming me lol. It's a potentially good gun though as cheap federal HP, CCI subsonic HP and eley sport all were involved in those magic first mags and 0.5inch groups. But I don't know what is going after after that.. Any good gunsmiths In the north-west suburbs of Melbourne?

It is incredibly frustrating. I've probably spent over $200 now just trying to shoot straight consistently...

[Gwion]

Sounds even more like a bedding issue to me.

[Wylie27]

check the tension on the barrel locking, check the bedding and making sure there is nothing binding or rubbing, changing the harmonics of the rifle.

Shim the screws, raise the receiver out of the stock by a couple of mm..

Get the head space checked, I have read the 455 is piss poor.

Do you have a torque wrench yet? if not buy one... you will need it..

[Wylie27]

Sounds even more like a bedding issue to me.

He was told that on rimfirecentral, he asked if it could be the barrel...

[Wylie27]

Tomek,

You are new to shooting, so I am going to ask the same question I was asked.

I assume you are bench resting, so a front and rear bag.

Describe you seating position and the ritual you go through before you squeeze the trigger?

What are your feet doing? Hands? Are you sitting in the same position?

Is the rifle in the same position?

Is your head in the same position?

Are you squeezing the trigger with the same pressure and consistency? How is the grip on rifle Is it tight?

Do you hold the bag or the rifle with your non trigger hand..

[Oldbloke]

His gf shoots the club rifle and gets tiny groups. But cant get anyting better that a bit over an inch with his. So its not shooter related.

[Wylie27]

He also gets great groups when he starts..

Yes that to me sounds like a bedding issue, however given he has been shooting for what a month maybe the drifting of the groups could be partly attributed to concentration lapses which leads to changes in his technique.

Which is why I asked the question..

[Oldbloke]

Sounds even more like a bedding issue to me.

Im far from an expert but inclined to agree.