Why it's important for bullets to stay at supersonic speeds

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Why it's important for bullets to stay at supersonic speeds

Post by jeener » 08 Oct 2013, 10:56 am

Hi guys,

I've been reading lately on long distance shooting and something that comes up repeatedly is the desire to keep bullets at supersonic speed and problems with accuracy when a bullet drops below super sonic speeds.

I've got an article in front of me at the moment which mentions it as a problem for accuracy, but doesn't say what the actual problem is.

I see from Google that the speed of sound is 1,116 feet per second, or there abouts.

If your hunting I can't see there being a difference between hitting your target at 1,116fps vs 1050fps or something like that.

Same for paper. If it his the target what's the problem?

Educate a newbie will you :)
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Re: Why is it imporant for bullets to stay at supersonic spe

Post by Warrigul » 08 Oct 2013, 11:05 am

Breaking the sound barrier creates turbulance, even if you are slowing back down and very marginally disturbs the projectile, this is why groups are better at distance if velocity is maintained.

It is quite noticeable at long distance or in a .22 benchrest rifle.
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Re: Why is it imporant for bullets to stay at supersonic spe

Post by Lorgar » 08 Oct 2013, 12:05 pm

jeener wrote:If your hunting I can't see there being a difference between hitting your target at 1,116fps vs 1050fps or something like that.


You're right, except that particular example is a matter of energy, not accuracy. If you hit a deer in the boiler room with 50fps less than another round it's not going to make a difference. Obviously will make a difference though if you miss :P

Like Warrigul says, it's to do with turbulence.

Think about dropping a pebble in a pond, it creates a wave that radiates out from the pebble. As your bullet is in flight it emits shockwave in a similar fashion that moves through the air at the speed of sound.

If something's moving slowing, the sound wave moves away from it so fast that the object doesn't catch up to it and there's no interaction.

When you fire, the bullet leaves your barrel at super sonic speeds and because it's moving faster than the speed of sound it's outrunning it's own shockwave.

The problem happens when your bullet transitions from supersonic to transonic. As the bullet is slowing down the shockwave is catching up until the bullet is hit from behind by the wave and it gets buffeted around inside the shockwave for a moment before dropping to sub-sonic speeds when the waves are then outrunning it. This is where you're bullet can go off course and accuracy is lost.
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Why must bullets stay supersonic?

Post by SendIt » 08 Oct 2013, 12:20 pm

You've probably seen in a documentary or on TV somewhere... when a jet is accelerating, at the point that it breaks the sound barrier there is like a pop of condensation and air behind it that looks like a circular cloud.

This is when the jet is moving and transonic speed and for a brief moment everything is overlapping. Your bullet is basically doing the same in reverse.
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Why must bullets stay supersonic?

Post by SendIt » 08 Oct 2013, 12:24 pm

What caliber / load are you shooting by the way? And what distances are you shooting at?

Depends on what you're shooting obviously but this usually wouldn't become and issue until you're shooting 800 or 900m+ distances.

Not something your average shooter has to worry about obviously...
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Why must bullets stay supersonic?

Post by redrum » 08 Oct 2013, 12:36 pm

Lorgar wrote:When you fire, the bullet leaves your barrel at super sonic speeds and because it's moving faster than the speed of sound it's outrunning it's own shockwave.


Stole a pic of this from Wikipedia for Jeener:

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Re: Why is it imporant for bullets to stay at supersonic spe

Post by jeener » 05 Mar 2014, 1:14 pm

Thanks for the replies guys.

Great picture demo redrum, cheers.
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Re: Why is it imporant for bullets to stay at supersonic spe

Post by Guliver » 05 Mar 2014, 3:33 pm

How is Doppler effect got anything to do with the topic? Lost me on that one.
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Re: Why is it imporant for bullets to stay at supersonic spe

Post by ebr love » 06 Mar 2014, 3:57 pm

Lorgar's explanation covered that?

'When you fire, the bullet leaves your barrel at super sonic speeds and because it's moving faster than the speed of sound it's outrunning it's own shockwave."

As per the picture?
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Re: Why is it imporant for bullets to stay at supersonic spe

Post by Guliver » 06 Mar 2014, 5:30 pm

ebr love wrote:Lorgar's explanation covered that?

'When you fire, the bullet leaves your barrel at super sonic speeds and because it's moving faster than the speed of sound it's outrunning it's own shockwave."

As per the picture?


I'd like to read the source page for the above diagram so as I can better understand. My experience relates to sound reinforcement and radio transmission, so my experience is in an entirely different area.

That isn't the Doppler effect as I understand it.

This is my understanding.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect

The Doppler effect (or Doppler shift), named after the Austrian physicist Christian Doppler, who proposed it in 1842 in Prague, is the change in frequency of a wave (or other periodic event) for an observer moving relative to its source. It is commonly heard when a vehicle sounding a siren or horn approaches, passes, and recedes from an observer. Compared to the emitted frequency, the received frequency is higher during the approach, identical at the instant of passing by, and lower during the recession.

The relative changes in frequency can be best explained as follows. When the source of the waves is moving toward the observer, each successive wave crest is emitted from a position closer to the observer than the previous wave. Therefore each wave takes slightly less time to reach the observer than the previous wave. Therefore the time between the arrival of successive wave crests at the observer is reduced, causing an increase in the frequency. While they are travelling, the distance between successive wave fronts is reduced; so the waves "bunch together". Conversely, if the source of waves is moving away from the observer, each wave is emitted from a position farther from the observer than the previous wave, so the arrival time between successive waves is increased, reducing the frequency. The distance between successive wave fronts is increased, so the waves "spread out".

For waves that propagate in a medium, such as sound waves, the velocity of the observer and of the source are relative to the medium in which the waves are transmitted. The total Doppler effect may therefore result from motion of the source, motion of the observer, or motion of the medium. Each of these effects is analyzed separately. For waves which do not require a medium, such as light or gravity in general relativity, only the relative difference in velocity between the observer and the source needs to be considered.


EDIT

Found this:

Source moving with vsource > vsound (Mach 1.4 - supersonic)
The sound source has now broken through the sound speed barrier, and is traveling at 1.4 times the speed of sound (Mach 1.4). Since the source is moving faster than the sound waves it creates, it actually leads the advancing wavefront. The sound source will pass by a stationary observer before the observer actually hears the sound it creates.

As you watch the animation, notice the clear formation of the Mach cone, the angle of which depends on the ratio of source speed to sound speed. It is this intense pressure front on the Mach cone that causes the shock wave known as a sonic boom as a supersonic aircraft passes overhead. The shock wave advances at the speed of sound v, and since it is built up from all of the combined wave fronts, the sound heard by an observer will be quite intense. A supersonic aircraft usually produces two sonic booms, one from the aircraft's nose and the other from its tail, resulting in a double thump. The figure at right shows a bullet travelling at Mach 2.45. The mach cone and shock wavefronts are very noticeable.


I've got it now, always something new to learn :)
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Re: Why is it imporant for bullets to stay at supersonic spe

Post by RDobber » 07 Mar 2014, 7:33 am

Too much to learn :lol:
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Re: Why is it imporant for bullets to stay at supersonic spe

Post by Warrigul » 07 Mar 2014, 9:37 am

RDobber wrote:Too much to learn :lol:


Yep, though all you need to really know is keep it at supersonic if you want to shoot 1000m. (generally accepted around here as 2850fps at muzzle for a .308).

In WW2 when deciding which aircrew would train for what the US explained the international dateline to the group (i.e you can fly across one time zone to another and the time changes but is still relative to Greenwich Mean Time in England), the ones that sat there confused and the ones that wanted all the facts as to WHY it was so were trained as air gunners etc.

The ones that immediately accepted that that was just how it was were made navigators, sometimes the mark of intelligence is simply accepting facts and moving on to more important tasks without getting bogged down in uneccesary details.

Food for thought.
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Re: Why is it imporant for bullets to stay at supersonic spe

Post by Guliver » 07 Mar 2014, 10:09 am

I'm afraid details are one thing I need to understand, my curiosity won't allow me to move on without knowing how and why.
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Re: Why is it imporant for bullets to stay at supersonic spe

Post by Prettybird » 07 Mar 2014, 12:27 pm

Warrigul wrote:The ones that immediately accepted that that was just how it was were made navigators, sometimes the mark of intelligence is simply accepting facts and moving on to more important tasks without getting bogged down in uneccesary details.


Ha.

Too uncomfortable to ask a question, get the better job :lol:
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Re: Why is it imporant for bullets to stay at supersonic spe

Post by Warrigul » 07 Mar 2014, 12:46 pm

Prettybird wrote:Ha.

Too uncomfortable to ask a question, get the better job :lol:


It is part of a psychological test, I came across it when I was studying a few years ago and found it quite fascinating, it is basically being capable of seeing the big picture and not getting caught on unimportant details.

And as you said possibly being too uncomfortable to ask a question...........
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Re: Why is it imporant for bullets to stay at supersonic spe

Post by Rippah » 07 Mar 2014, 12:56 pm

Warrigul wrote:...and the ones that wanted all the facts as to WHY it was so...


Warrigul wrote:...it is basically being capable of seeing the big picture and not getting caught on unimportant details.

And as you said possibly being too uncomfortable to ask a question...


Gotta say, it sounds to me a little like filtering out independent thinkers if guys are given menial roles for asking questions?

Sounds a little like they're just looking for good little automatons who will follow orders no questions asked.

I dunno? Just one thought...
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Re: Why is it imporant for bullets to stay at supersonic spe

Post by Warrigul » 10 Mar 2014, 6:40 pm

Rippah wrote:
Warrigul wrote:...and the ones that wanted all the facts as to WHY it was so...


Warrigul wrote:...it is basically being capable of seeing the big picture and not getting caught on unimportant details.

And as you said possibly being too uncomfortable to ask a question...


Gotta say, it sounds to me a little like filtering out independent thinkers if guys are given menial roles for asking questions?

Sounds a little like they're just looking for good little automatons who will follow orders no questions asked.

I dunno? Just one thought...


When a practical person is hungry he doesn't need to know how a can opener is made(nor will it help him in any way), he just needs to know how to use it to open the can.
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Re: Why is it imporant for bullets to stay at supersonic spe

Post by defau » 11 Mar 2014, 9:34 am

Warrigul wrote:When a practical person is hungry he doesn't need to know how a can opener is made (nor will it help him in any way), he just needs to know how to use it to open the can.


What happens if the can opener breaks? ;)
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Re: Why is it imporant for bullets to stay at supersonic spe

Post by Warrigul » 11 Mar 2014, 9:39 am

defau wrote:
Warrigul wrote:When a practical person is hungry he doesn't need to know how a can opener is made (nor will it help him in any way), he just needs to know how to use it to open the can.


What happens if the can opener breaks? ;)


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Re: Why is it imporant for bullets to stay at supersonic spe

Post by Arth » 11 Mar 2014, 2:38 pm

defau wrote:What happens if the can opener breaks? ;)


A big rock.

Learning how it works is simple too :lol:
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Re: Why is it imporant for bullets to stay at supersonic spe

Post by tom604 » 25 Jun 2014, 5:14 pm

just read this thread and i just have to say that all the answers were wrong,,,,its so you kill whatever your shooting at,,quicker :P ;)
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Re: Why is it imporant for bullets to stay at supersonic spe

Post by MeccaOz » 25 Jun 2014, 5:50 pm

Doppler effect ? Turbulance ... Hmmm well I blame E= MC squared!

What were we talking about? :lol:
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Re: Why is it imporant for bullets to stay at supersonic spe

Post by Monty » 27 Jun 2014, 12:16 pm

tom604 wrote:just read this thread and i just have to say that all the answers were wrong,,,,its so you kill whatever your shooting at,,quicker :P ;)


The deer being 0.00001 second fresher makes all the difference ;)
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Re: Why is it imporant for bullets to stay at supersonic spe

Post by tom604 » 27 Jun 2014, 7:33 pm

Freshness that you can taste! :lol:
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Re: Why is it imporant for bullets to stay at supersonic spe

Post by sha » 29 Jun 2014, 3:42 pm

MeccaOz wrote:Doppler effect ? Turbulance ... Hmmm well I blame E= MC squared!

What were we talking about? :lol:


Hang on, I just need to Google some big words I don't understand so I can join in :lol:
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