454 casull or 45/70 ?

[bigpete]

OK,so I'm having an ongoing argument with a mate who has virtually never rifle hunted and is only just getting his Australian licence.
As a bit of background,he is a successful bow hunter,so he knows his to hunt. He has shot a couple of animals with my Rossi 44 magum and loved it. He has joined a cowboy action group and wants to play that game pretty hard,but he also wants to hunt.
The argument I'm having with him at the moment is that in 10 months time we're allegedly going buffalo hunting. I'm trying to tell him to buy a 45/70 for hunting,and something like a 357,45 colt,or a 44 mag for cowboy action/smaller animals.
His argument is he can only afford one rifle at the moment,and he can load a 454 casull down for cowboy action,or right up for hunting big stuff. Which I do tend to agree with EXCEPT for buffalo and for the fact that he fully intends to buy a 45/70 ANYWAY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm losing patience with him.
Am I wrong ? To me it seems a no brainer to just have 2 different guns for 2 completely different tasks ?

[Supaduke]

You can load 45-70 right down with TB and components and knowledge are far more readily available .
Plus, I don't see many rifles chambered in .454 casull , which would mean expensive gunsmith work or an expensive boutique rifle.

[bladeracer]

OK,so I'm having an ongoing argument with a mate who has virtually never rifle hunted and is only just getting his Australian licence.
As a bit of background,he is a successful bow hunter,so he knows his to hunt. He has shot a couple of animals with my Rossi 44 magum and loved it. He has joined a cowboy action group and wants to play that game pretty hard,but he also wants to hunt.
The argument I'm having with him at the moment is that in 10 months time we're allegedly going buffalo hunting. I'm trying to tell him to buy a 45/70 for hunting,and something like a 357,45 colt,or a 44 mag for cowboy action/smaller animals.
His argument is he can only afford one rifle at the moment,and he can load a 454 casull down for cowboy action,or right up for hunting big stuff. Which I do tend to agree with EXCEPT for buffalo and for the fact that he fully intends to buy a 45/70 ANYWAY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm losing patience with him.
Am I wrong ? To me it seems a no brainer to just have 2 different guns for 2 completely different tasks ?

If the only reason for getting the .45-70 is one buff hunt then maybe he could just borrow a rifle for that?
I don't see any value to the .454 Casull. You can load the .45-70 down to that level if you wish, but you can't load the .454 up to .45-70 performance. But surely you can't load .45-70 down and use it to compete in a pistol-caliber competition? .45-70 and .450 Bushmaster are virtually the same in performance but I think the .458" bore of the .45-70 gives it the edge slightly over the .452" Bushmaster.
I would get the pistol-caliber rifle for competition and just borrow a rifle for hunting as required.
But once he's bought his first rifle he'll soon be wanting more anyway
Any excuse to buy more than one rifle is all I would need.

[bigpete]

That's why I'm telling him to buy the 45/70 first. He also plans to hunt red and sambar deer.

Supaduke Rossi make a 454 casull rifle readily available in Australia.

The thing is,he wants and thinks one calibre is going to cover everything.
I think its far better to have one big gun to cover big game,and one small one to cover cowboy action/ small game

[Supaduke]

Never seen or heard of it, will have to check it out.

[GLS_1956]

The 45/70 has greater versatility for hunting. I don't know about Australia, but when I was shooting Cowboy Action, I don't recall anyone shooting the 454.

[Oldbloke]

Never heard of 454. Don't buy it. Except for highly specialised use always buy popular cartridge. Their popular for good reason.

I'd say 45-70 would be good for buff and sambar. Maybe borrow one if he needs to.

For cowboy buy what everyone else uses, perhaps 44 mag

P. S. Tell him he's dreaming.

[Tom Foolery]

My 2c worth... I'd be looking for a 375 or maybe even a 416 in a scoped bolt action for buffalo and red/sambar then get whatever pistol calibre for cowboy action down the track. Sure, some will say you're over gunned for deer but at least in the thick or steep stuff if you hit 'em in the right spot you won't have to track them. Like, at all.

[juststarting]

The thing is,he wants and thinks one calibre is going to cover everything.

I know someone like that. It's a waste to argue that point... They will learn on their own.

[marksman]

my vote is for the 375 h&h

have a look for a cheap zastava, good rifle for buff and sambar

[Oldbloke]

My 2c worth... I'd be looking for a 375 or maybe even a 416 in a scoped bolt action for buffalo and red/sambar then get whatever pistol calibre for cowboy action down the track. Sure, some will say you're over gunned for deer but at least in the thick or steep stuff if you hit 'em in the right spot you won't have to track them. Like, at all.

+1. Provided he can comfortably handle the recoil. No point getting one the find you need to down load it.

[Tom Foolery]

My 2c worth... I'd be looking for a 375 or maybe even a 416 in a scoped bolt action for buffalo and red/sambar then get whatever pistol calibre for cowboy action down the track. Sure, some will say you're over gunned for deer but at least in the thick or steep stuff if you hit 'em in the right spot you won't have to track them. Like, at all.

+1. Provided he can comfortably handle the recoil. No point getting one the find you need to down load it.

Yeah, good point. Maybe get a 454 Casull to practice on

I wouldn't think there'd be too much difference between a decently weighted bolt action 375 and a 45-70 lever gun in terms of recoil. They'll both give you a decent shove but if he can handle one then surely he can handle the other.

[Oldbloke]

Why 45-70. For sambar consider 30-06 338
and you can name a few others, load 220gr for the one buff. Then 220 or 180 for sambar. Bobs your uncle.

[Hugh]

There are quite a few guns cambered in this round,as this round is considered the ultimate Bear spray in AK in a pistol, out of a rifle they can get 1900fps with a 300 grain bullet maybe do both?

[bigpete]

There are quite a few guns cambered in this round,as this round is considered the ultimate Bear spray in AK in a pistol, out of a rifle they can get 1900fps with a 300 grain bullet maybe do both?

So that's about 400fps below a 45/70 load with that weight bullet. 500 if you go really hot.
And I can only imagine the gap would get worse the heavier the projectile gets.

[bigpete]

As for other calibres,unless it comes in a lever action he's not interested.

[bigpete]

Never heard of 454. Don't buy it. Except for highly specialised use always buy popular cartridge. Their popular for good reason.

I'd say 45-70 would be good for buff and sambar. Maybe borrow one if he needs to.

For cowboy buy what everyone else uses, perhaps 44 mag

P. S. Tell him he's dreaming.

You would not believe how many times I've told him that !

[Hugh]

There are quite a few guns cambered in this round,as this round is considered the ultimate Bear spray in AK in a pistol, out of a rifle they can get 1900fps with a 300 grain bullet maybe do both?

So that's about 400fps below a 45/70 load with that weight bullet. 500 if you go really hot.
And I can only imagine the gap would get worse the heavier the projectile gets.

I wasn't saying it was more powerful just at closer ranges it would do the job,not to shabby for a pistol round also for his cowboy shooting it also takes the .45 round for plinking ,target.

[bladeracer]

...it also takes the .45 round for plinking ,target.

Since you mentioned it, I've been trying to find out if other cartridges can be used in the .45-70 - anybody know of anything that works in the .45-70? .410 shotshells maybe?

[marksman]

As for other calibres,unless it comes in a lever action he's not interested.

30-06 is a great round I love it

[bigpete]

Why settle for a poxy 3006 ? Why not get a 300 magum and get it rebarrelled for 458 ?

[marksman]

Why settle for a poxy 3006 ? Why not get a 300 magum and get it rebarrelled for 458 ?

great idea

[bigpete]

...it also takes the .45 round for plinking ,target.

Since you mentioned it, I've been trying to find out if other cartridges can be used in the .45-70 - anybody know of anything that works in the .45-70? .410 shotshells maybe?

From what I've gleaned over the last couple of months,yes you can fire a 410 shell in them BUT the cases usually split and get stuck in the chamber.
Much better to just load 45/70 cases with shot really

[brett1868]

Now my interest has been spiked....how do I load 45/70 with shot?

[Oldbloke]

Now my interest has been spiked....how do I load 45/70 with shot?

I have heard of that and a quick search found this. More or less what I heard yonks ago. Sound like fun and handy if you go camping. The reverse to having a few solidd for my 12g.


http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/showt ... hp?t=52071

[brett1868]

Now my interest has been spiked....how do I load 45/70 with shot?

I have heard of that and a quick search found this. More or less what I heard yonks ago. Sound like fun and handy if you go camping. The reverse to having a few solidd for my 12g.


http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/showt ... hp?t=52071

I have a 45-70, a 410 and a .460 and have been following this thread for a while. I also have a couple boxes of 454 Casull in the safe as I was thinking to use them in the 460. Making some 460 rounds with shot sounds like fun
As for the original question....Buy what's needed for today and worry about tomorrow another day cause it may never happen. If he's getting involved in CASA then a rifle / pistol in the same caliber is a big bonus cause only 1 ammo type to worry about. Unfortunately the 45-70 can't chamber the 45LC round or it'd be a good choice for CASA. Besides, more guns the better

[wrenchman]

you can look them up on google to have him compare it does sound like he just wants the 454 if this is a guided hunt the he might tell him he cant hunt with it.

[Oldbloke]

Someone mentioned earlier, borrow or rent for the one hunt.

[bigpete]

Now my interest has been spiked....how do I load 45/70 with shot?

I have heard of that and a quick search found this. More or less what I heard yonks ago. Sound like fun and handy if you go camping. The reverse to having a few solidd for my 12g.


http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/showt ... hp?t=52071

I have a 45-70, a 410 and a .460 and have been following this thread for a while. I also have a couple boxes of 454 Casull in the safe as I was thinking to use them in the 460. Making some 460 rounds with shot sounds like fun
As for the original question....Buy what's needed for today and worry about tomorrow another day cause it may never happen. If he's getting involved in CASA then a rifle / pistol in the same caliber is a big bonus cause only 1 ammo type to worry about. Unfortunately the 45-70 can't chamber the 45LC round or it'd be a good choice for CASA. Besides, more guns the better

That's what I'm trying to say to him.
If you're going to buy a 45/70 anyway,buy it now before you go away and hunt big dangerous critters.
Then buy a gun for mucking around playing cowboys.
Coz at the end of the day,a model 92 action isn't really all that good for cowboy action anyway

[bigpete]

As for shot shells,peice of cake. 7.5gn of trailboss,card wad,top up with shot,card wad, and a little glue. Easy