Attacking the NRA is really attacking everyday Americans

[Gaznazdiak]

Hi marksman,

Sure the cops the, Sheriffs, the BATF, the FBI all share responsibility, but a quick read of the statutes in the link below shows the real cause of the problem.
That and the fact that too many nongs over there think it's still 1776 and the Gummint's out to get them, or brainwash them with vaccines. One specimen I was reading the other day insists that the World Health Organisation is actually a satanist conspiracy to enslave us all and that UNESCO is a conspiracy to breed all the races together and "muddy up" the bloodlines to get rid of the white man. No prizes for guessing there's a white robe and pointy hood in his cupboard.

According to the American Findlaw website, 28 of the 50 US states do not require checks, ID or licence for private citizens to sell guns to each other. All of those 28 have provisos, but they nearly all contain the get out clause that the seller can not "knowingly" sell to a prohibited person.
The only proviso for New Mexico gave me a giggle:
N.M. Stat. Ann. § 30-22-12(A): May not transfer firearms to a person in custody or confinement without the consent of the officer in charge.
http://consumer.findlaw.com/consumer-tr ... state.html

[Gaznazdiak]

bentaz

"No I don't think the trade in handguns is very pertinent to the fact d**kheads with "rifles" keep shooting people!"

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/14/sund ... -myth.html

[bladeracer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nROWwJfdueY

Skip to 21:50 to see how the Police and 23:30 Council officials explain that if they'd known he had access to firearms they wouldn't have been treating him this way.

It's not a conspiracy, our government, and all governments, want a disarmed public they can kick around as they see fit.

[bladeracer]

https://www.peo.gov.au/learning/fact-sheets/making-a-law.html

We get another 180 new laws every year, that's 4000 new laws just since '96.
What difference do they make to our society?
None, they just enable government to suck even more cash out of the people that are turned into criminals every time a new law is added.

[Bigjobss]

Anyone here listen to the No Agenda podcast?
I reccomend listening to epidosde 1011 "vasectomies for dogs" for an interesting discussion around the florida shooting. Skip to 1hr18m, but the whole podcast is good.
One theory, close to the conspiracy field but not quite there, apparently the local Broward County schools sherrif and police departments have been responding to a scheme where they had financial and ploitical gains to burying crime amongst students over the last few years, including the shooter who was known to the Sherrif department, the sherrif Scott Israel seems shifty as hell.

[Gwion]

Laws can be passed as legislation but they only stsnd untill they challenged. Legislation cannot be upheld that impinges on the common law rights of citizens as laid out in the original bill of rights.

So. If you really feel laws being passed are contrary to the basic rights that are the basis of all commonwealth law; stop bitching about it and mount a class action challenge to the laws n question.

[wanneroo]

All I meant was that with people able to sell unregistered, untraceable guns to unidentified strangers the problem will never be solvable. Yes, that probably will need a law change to prevent that, but sometimes a change in the law can be a positive.

CNN admitted in the video that it was illegal to be sold those firearms without the seller demanding ID. That's yet another law that is clearly not being enforced, so why assume another law might be?
I think "no ID required" only applies if both parties reside in the same state, but without requiring ID how do you prove that...

Even if a state allows friend to friend transfers with no FFL, if you want to sell a gun privately you can use an FFL to transfer it, the fee is usually $20-$40. I think you will find in the USA in states where FTF transfers are permitted within state lines, mostly it's family and Christmas presents. Gang bangers are not buying hunting rifles.

Unregistered, untraceable guns are a problem in Australia with gangs making their own submachine guns. Clearly the laws didn't stop that.

I think people have to get out of this vision of believing that all these laws and more laws and more laws just automatically fix problems and make them go away to where we live in utopia. There will always be bad people and what stops them is harsh penalties for their behavior.

[wanneroo]

[ The problem in america is they are all f***ed in the head. Canadians, kiwis and a host of other relevant nations don't just lose there s**t and shoot everyone.

Succinct.
I'm sure as whole the people of the US are genuinely good people but their system is so fundamentally flawed that it produces a large number of complete nut jobs with extremely violent ideations.

BS. There are just as many crazy people in Australia. Australia has plenty of serial killers and gangbangers. Keep in mind Australia's total population would fit in the whole Los Angeles/San Diego metro area. It's a small population in comparison.

[wanneroo]

wannaroo said in his last post that firearms have to be marked with manufacturer and serial number in the US
so really these guys in the vid Gaz, selling the guns without are crooks who deserve the full force of the law, they are not law abiding citizens
who is responsible for enforcing the law mate who has dropped the ball, but who gets the blame and has to pay

how many storeys of this nature do you read about and the FBI or local authority's new about the perp and did not act

The 1968 GCA codified serial numbers on guns. You do not have to serial number a gun you make but you do if you sell it.

However home built guns are not a problem. It's too much work for criminals when they can use a straw buyer or drive a truck through a front window of a gun shop at 2 AM. I have only heard of one case in California where cops found a parts kit home built style gun at a crime scene. There might be more, but it's not a problem.

There are 30000 gun laws on the books in the USA and even within this thread you can see where I'm like you can do this, you can do that, depends what state you are in yadda yadda. I have no surprise that some in the USA do not know the laws inside and out and out of ignorance break them.

Big government failed in the Florida now they want to give us more big government.

[wanneroo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nROWwJfdueY

Skip to 21:50 to see how the Police and 23:30 Council officials explain that if they'd known he had access to firearms they wouldn't have been treating him this way.

It's not a conspiracy, our government, and all governments, want a disarmed public they can kick around as they see fit.

People should read up on the fall of the Russian Empire. When the "Reds" took over a city one of their first aims was to round up all the firearms and execute their owners with them. One cull in Moscow resulted in thousands dead. The Nazis enacted similar gun control in the 1930's.

Government is the biggest killer of all. Terrorists, criminals, school shooters are not even a statistical burble compared to governments.

[Gaznazdiak]

What happened in Russia, over 100 years ago, and Germany 80 years ago are historical fact, that's true.
But seriously, when was the last time the Australian gov attacked and massacred a mass of Australian citizens?
When was the last time the American gov slaughtered a mass of their citizens?
Yes governments, ours included, have killed a lot of people, even right now, but all the mass killing by US and Aust govs in the last 100 years have been in wars overseas, not directed at their own poulation.
This business of"we need to be armed to defend ourselves from Malcolm Turnbull" is paranoid nonsense and feeds directly into the anti-gun agenda and gets every farmer who needs to control ferals and sporting shooter branded as violent crazies.

[wanneroo]

What happened in Russia, over 100 years ago, and Germany 80 years ago are historical fact, that's true.
But seriously, when was the last time the Australian gov attacked and massacred a mass of Australian citizens?
When was the last time the American gov slaughtered a mass of their citizens?
Yes governments, ours included, have killed a lot of people, even right now, but all the mass killing by US and Aust govs in the last 100 years have been in wars overseas, not directed at their own poulation.
This business of"we need to be armed to defend ourselves from Malcolm Turnbull" is paranoid nonsense and feeds directly into the anti-gun agenda and gets every farmer who needs to control ferals and sporting shooter branded as violent crazies.

I don't think you understand. We have lots of guns so we don't have to use them, much like the Swiss. I would never take anything for granted. We have plenty of people in both countries that would love to impose a totalitarian state and if anything take rights away or restrict them more. Also you never know when a global disaster could happen where there is a breakdown in rule of law in your neighborhood.

Whatever it is, I think being able to defend your life from being taken from whoever it might be is a fundamental human right.

[Gaznazdiak]

Wannaroo
I totally agree with your last comment, particularly the self defence.
I haven't attended martial arts training since breaking my neck and back in a car accident 22 years ago, but to this day, if I use the lifelong reflex-responses gained from 15 years of training I am likely to be charged, even when defending against an attack.
What I do feel is important, though, is that we avoid voicing things that the lace-panties, anti-guns-at-all-costs soft-c*cks will use to paint us as dangerous loons.
They do that as it is, they don't need our help.
It sh*ts the hell out of me that through no fault of our own we have to tip-toe to avoid being branded by these cunning stunts, but it is what it is.

[wanneroo]

What I do feel is important, though, is that we avoid voicing things that the lace-panties, anti-guns-at-all-costs soft-c*cks will use to paint us as dangerous loons.
They do that as it is, they don't need our help.
It sh*ts the hell out of me that through no fault of our own we have to tip-toe to avoid being branded by these cunning stunts, but it is what it is.

I think actually the problem is that we don't argue our side but often sit and take it.

I would say gun owners tend to be more conservative, responsible people who are focused on working and their families and hence on average are just kind people who want to get along with their neighbors. They often don't have much time to be advocates for any political or cultural position. On the other side we have a lot of angry leftists who majored in gender studies and who have nothing better to do than be on the attack railing against normal society and normal behavior. They've taken over a lot of the media, culture and the politics.

I think instead of continuing to let them define you and me, we need to define them and argue our side. Personally myself I don't let people define me and my views, I research them and then I can argue any position I take with anyone. I'll debate anyone on my opinions. Gun owners in Australia ended up with the government up their butt because they sat there and took it. There was no organized movement to say uh hey wait a minute, because of one bad act we don't throw our rights in the rubbish bin. I think us Americans are learning from that, that we can't sit by and let others define us and sit and watch.

[Gaznazdiak]

Wannaroo
Well said mate. Gender studies, what a crock, eh? I've been studying the feminine gender all my life, didn't know until recently you could get a degree in it.
Below is how I see gun owners arguing with antis.

[straightshooter]

MassShootingsCartoon.jpg (48.97 KiB) Viewed 9004 times

[Bigjobss]

https://youtu.be/p4j7tYihvJM

Good newly released video about the facts of guns vs homicide in the USA, worth the 4min to see the statistics that the left continually ignores.

[Hugh]

BS. There are just as many crazy people in Australia. Australia has plenty of serial killers and gangbangers. Keep in mind Australia's total population would fit in the whole Los Angeles/San Diego metro area. It's a small population in comparison.[/quote]
Figures don't bear that out,La homicide rate last year 6.3 per 100000,Au 1 per 100000 2013=2014 and decreasing,might point out LA rate is down from 36 per 100000 1989,AU same year was 1.8 per 100000.I have travelled extensively in US and there are a lot more crazy people than here.Not that the people are any different just complete lack of health care for anybody poor [over 50 percent live under the poverty line in USA]here you get treated poor or not,unbelievable the number of people you see with hare lip in states,here its just fixed at birth with our flawed but great health sys.USA 2743 serial killers,AU 75, USA pop 325.7mil 2017, Au 24.1mil.doing the math USA has 1 in every118738 persons to Au 1 in 327397 about one third of US rate.Other factors come into it in au if you are charged with a violent crime or even have a AVO taken out against you you lose your guns and cant get them back for a while even when AVO runs out.Their not bad people I could live in the US just not in one of their cities or really poor areas,most of the people in their country areas are like Australians were 25 years ago.We love going there and have only felt unsafe a couple of times where I wished I could conceled carry but getting a firearm as a tourist is nearly impossible.

[southeast varmiter]

This is where the fail is with your logic.
It’s not about guns. It’s about the right to liberty and means to secure it.
Bad guy with a gun could be the government.

Don't get me wrong, I love my guns and the fact that I am allowed to own and use them, but the self defence argument in America seems to my simple mind to be somewhat circular and self-defeating.

"The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun".

True enough, but also raises the question, to me at least, if there weren't quite so many guns, so easily and anonymously available to anyone fresh out of the asylum, would there be such a desperate need for every "good guy" to be constantly armed and alert for a crazed attacker?

As the video below clearly demonstrates, making ever tighter and more restrictive gun laws will never work in America as the lack of licencing and registration makes a nonsense of draconian laws persecuting law abiding people. That horse hasn't just bolted, it's retired to a nice paddock and died of old age.

The CNN report below shows just how easy it is to get unregistered pistols and assault style rifles through the so called gun show loophole with absolutely no checks or waiting, the buyers and sellers didn't even exchange first names.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A51Gr0zpX_c

[Heckler303]

The CNN report below shows just how easy it is to get unregistered pistols and assault style rifles through the so called gun show loophole with absolutely no checks or waiting, the buyers and sellers didn't even exchange first names.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A51Gr0zpX_c

Yeah, that video has been downvoted to hell, they've broken a fair few laws by doing that as well.

[wanneroo]

This is where the fail is with your logic.
It’s not about guns. It’s about the right to liberty and means to secure it.
Bad guy with a gun could be the government.

As history has proven quite often it is. Just in the past 100 years big government is the biggest killer of civilians of all. The end goal for disarmament is the seizure of power by totalitarians. When people have the ability and capability to shoot back it changes the game. And that capability transfers over to fighting off foreign invaders as well. Countries are less likely to mess with countries that have civilians that can shoot well or if they do they pay a heavy price.

[Gaznazdiak]

No offence intended to our American mates on this forum, but the disturbing report below suggests why these types of mass killings keep happening.
The US seems to have a large number of very "different" people.

Florida school shooting suspect receives 'piles' of fan letters in jail
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-30/f ... rs/9604058

[marksman]

hey Gaz do you really think that doesn't happen in Australia?
it is part of why the media should not promote it and the prisons should not hand over any fan mail, just send it back with some questions asked
does not mean in any way that it excuses the authority's who dropped the ball and aloud this crime to happen

IMO to deal with this would be a very painful and long lasting death made very public

[Gaznazdiak]

Hi Marksman, no I don't think we don't have loons here, that would be silly, you just have to go into any town or city to see plenty.
What I meant was that the Americans seem to have more than their share.
I have no doubt that Malat and Bryant et al would have sick feckers writing them love letters, we have even had skanky loons marrying lifers.
As to the penalty, they had the idea in Europe a few centuries ago, put them in a cage without room to stand or lay down, just squat, then hang the cage somewhere public, until the birds have finished and the bones fall out.

[Bigjobss]

The media should not be reporting on that scumbugs "popularity" with the ladies, it does nothing to deter copycats and further glorifies the behaviour in minds of other sickos. I understand freedom of the press, 1st Ammendment etc but these journalists have no morals.

[marksman]

The media should not be reporting on that scumbugs "popularity" with the ladies, it does nothing to deter copycats and further glorifies the behaviour in minds of other sickos. I understand freedom of the press, 1st Ammendment etc but these journalists have no morals.

+1

money talks

[Gaznazdiak]

The media should not be reporting on that scumbugs "popularity" with the ladies, it does nothing to deter copycats and further glorifies the behaviour in minds of other sickos. I understand freedom of the press, 1st Ammendment etc but these journalists have no morals.

If they had morals they wouldn't be true journos.
A journalist with any sense of decency would be like an honest used car salesman or a chook with teeth.
Anyone who could ask a grieving relative "so how did you feel" in relation to the murder of a loved one is a "true" journalist.
Like politicians, they are a necessary evil, but I detest them both just the same.

[Bigjobss]

The media should not be reporting on that scumbugs "popularity" with the ladies, it does nothing to deter copycats and further glorifies the behaviour in minds of other sickos. I understand freedom of the press, 1st Ammendment etc but these journalists have no morals.

If they had morals they wouldn't be true journos.
A journalist with any sense of decency would be like an honest used car salesman or a chook with teeth.
Anyone who could ask a grieving relative "so how did you feel" in relation to the murder of a loved one is a "true" journalist.
Like politicians, they are a necessary evil, but I detest them both just the same.

Hard to imagine a time when journalism was a respected industry hey?

Standards have been slipping steadily with incresed internet popularity, freedom in infornation is with the people (for now) and news outlets these days are pretty much all slacious clickbait and recreational outrage trash or incredibly politically biased like the ABC.
Can we have a postal vote to defund the ABC?