Reduced loads with fast powders ie;trailboss

[Stix]

Im a trailboss user & am very confident with it.

But i also have 4kg of ASI AS50N laying around for the shotties that doesnt get used much these days...

Im wondering if anyone has any experience with loading centrefire cartridges with this powder (AS50N), for reduced loads...?
And if so, is following standard protocol (say starting loads with 70% case volume & work up) a relatively safe thing to do...?

I havnt looked into it yet, so not sure of bulk density etc, but naturally thought id start with the countries best brains trust...
Curious to hear peoples experiences if any...

Cheers

[Gamerancher]

Be very careful with fast burning powders, it is a fine line between safe and over-pressure loads. Too much is a bad thing with fast burning powders, while too little is a problem with slow burning powders

I have used AS-30 in .44mag ( 6.2gr with 210 grain cast bullets) That is a published "safe" load. The trouble with such fast powders is that a small increase in charge weight can be a massive increase in pressure. For example, simply increasing the previously mentioned load by just 0.6 grains is actually almost a 10% increase in powder.
ADI publish a maximum loading of 8gr of AS-30 behind a 168gr bullet.

Trail-boss is a fast burning powder that is designed to be bulky, is that where you are getting your minimum 70% by volume from?

I certainly wouldn't be filling any rifle cases to 70% with AS-50, I reckon you'd be looking at a massive overload.

Also, when experimenting with reduced loads using AS-50, I have personally found it to be very temperamental to work with. I was trying it only because at the time, AP-70, ( which I've found to be very good for use in reduced loads in my rifles ), was impossible to get.

[Oldbloke]

Im a trailboss user & am very confident with it.

Im wondering if anyone has any experience with loading centrefire cartridges with this powder (AS50N), for reduced loads...?
And if so, is following standard protocol (say starting loads with 70% case volume & work up) a relatively safe thing to do...?

In short NO. That sounds dangerous.
No expert here but they are totally different in volume. Trail Boss sits in between red dot and green dot and close to AS50N in burn rates but its very bulky.

There is plenty of old data around for red dot and green dot using cast bullets. Check out old reloading manuals.
I use the following with some success but the loads I'm using did not come from a manual. I tranposed green dot data to AS50N. So use with caution.

AS50N 3006 180gr cast 15gr abt 1600fps
AS50N 223 55gr SP 7.6gr abt 2200fps

Also note the cases are not even 50% full. If you did this with a slow burning powder it would be a recipe for disaster.

It would help if you indicated the cartridge you are intending to load.

[Stix]

Hi gamerancher & thanks for your reply...
Yes im aware of the issues that may arise, hence why im asking & not just filling some cases & going for broke.

From memory, trailboss is somewhere around 1/3rd (thats approx-dont quote me) the bulk density of the medium-slow rifle powders...so im guessing thats one of the reasons why it is a safe to use in c/f rifles--load density/burn rate is good/safe.

So to ans your question--yes--& the 70% is listed by ADI themselves...to find safe reduced working load in a rifle, they state something along the lines of...
Fill case to base of given proj with t/boss--this is considered your max load.
Start with 70% of this for min & work up...
(Again dont quote me, but thats the crux of it.)

My AS50N is stored at the ol'mans house as its his 12g press i use (well he's retired so i hassle him to load for me)...
Due to this im inable to do a quick (& basic) bulk density test to get a basic idea of burn rate vs load density as compared to t/boss & other powders..

Even though adi suggest the above for load testing trailboss, ive heard of people using much smaller quantaties than 70% of case volume, & getting very safe & good results.

Thanks again GR...despite what others say, i consider my face plenty pretty so im not about to go & purposely change its looks with burns & bolt dents...!!

Someone would've tried it...so thought id ask about & investigate the possibilities before buying another bottle of t/boss.

[Stix]

Thanks ob...i missed your post earlier...

Id be interested to load any cases really...
Prob start with smaller ones like 204, &/or 22-250...& others if it works easily & safely...

[Oldbloke]

Thanks ob...i missed your post earlier...

Id be interested to load any cases really...
Prob start with smaller ones like 204, &/or 22-250...& others if it works easily & safely...

If you can't find load data perhaps email ADI. They can be very helpful.

[Stix]

Yes well i dont have any load data...
Hence asking here first...
Cheers

[Sarco]

Please see attached ADI on line load data.

http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloaders/index.asp

There is probably a very good reason that ADI absolutely DO NOT INCLUDE any pistol/shotgun powder data in the loads for 204 & 22-250. The fastest powders recommended are all RIFLE powders.

[SCJ429]

You would start with about four grains of trailboss in your 204, if you put that much AS30 into the case does it only fill it around 20%? If so I wouldn't try it. If you try 70% or around 20 grains of AS30 I would expect extreme pressure and your action may fail. I would not want to pull the trigger or be nearby. The most reduced load other than Trailboss that I would try would be 2207 with light 24 grain projectiles and even then the speed is going to be in excess of Mach 3. You might have to save your AS30 for straight walled pistol cases.

[slickncghia]

Look for something that can be loaded with ADI 2206H. then google Hogdon H4895

[Oldbloke]

Some are missing the point.
He has 4kg of AS 50N he would like to use up.

[Stix]

You would start with about four grains of trailboss in your 204, if you put that much AS30 into the case does it only fill it around 20%? If so I wouldn't try it. If you try 70% or around 20 grains of AS30 I would expect extreme pressure and your action may fail. I would not want to pull the trigger or be nearby. The most reduced load other than Trailboss that I would try would be 2207 with light 24 grain projectiles and even then the speed is going to be in excess of Mach 3. You might have to save your AS30 for straight walled pistol cases.

Thanks SCJ...its the AS50 i have mate, not the 30...
And again, i cant try a simple volume teat because i have the powder stored elsewhere...

[Stix]

Look for something that can be loaded with ADI 2206H. then google Hogdon H4895

Thanks mate...i do have & im aware of 2206h & its reduced load density capabilities...
I also have trailboss...

But the purpose of the thread is to find any info in regards to safely using up the 4kg of AS50N.i have laying dormant.

[Stix]

Some are missing the point.
He has 4kg of AS 50N he would like to use up.

Yar pretty sharp for an old bloke...

[Oldbloke]

Some are missing the point.
He has 4kg of AS 50N he would like to use up.

Yar pretty sharp for an old bloke...

I've been following the thread. This type of reloading data is difficult to get.

[Oldbloke]

As a matter of interest are we talking cast bullets?

[SCJ429]

Sorry, I got 30 and not 50 in my head. I have seen cast bullets used in a 223 using 4 to 6 grains of green dot, very similar to AS50. They used Dacron as a filler back then, this has now fallen out of favour. It will be hard to find data for a 204 or a 22/250, you might have to blaze your own trail. Pulling the trigger for the first time on a four grain load will be nerve wracking. It will take a while to burn your four kilos of powder at four grains at a time.

[Stix]

Hmmm...
Dont think id be doing much pulling the ttigger on loads like that without confirmstion its ok...

[Gwion]

Personally. I'd find a mate who could use the powder for the intended purpose and buy more powder suited to my own purposes...

[Stix]

Hi gwion, unfortunately all the blokes i know are bludy stooges mate...they would all want it for nothing...!!!

If i could get decent payed work in the bush & live on a farm id buy 2 clay throwers & zoom through the powder...!!!

Ill use it eventually i guess...

ADI never returned my email either...

[Gwion]

Nothin' like having tight arse mates....

[Stix]

Got a response from ADI...
Im taking it as a flat out cant be done...

They have also sent me a pdf with bulk density & volumetric mean density rates of all powders...
So for those interested, pm me yr email & ill send it on....

[Oldbloke]

Hi gwion, unfortunately all the blokes i know are bludy stooges mate...they would all want it for nothing...!!!

If i could get decent payed work in the bush & live on a farm id buy 2 clay throwers & zoom through the powder...!!!

Ill use it eventually i guess...

ADI never returned my email either...

Expect at least two weeks to get a reply. Two or three experts will look at it first. They are very heavy into procedures and very conservative, due to what they make.

[Stix]

Hi gwion, unfortunately all the blokes i know are bludy stooges mate...they would all want it for nothing...!!!

If i could get decent payed work in the bush & live on a farm id buy 2 clay throwers & zoom through the powder...!!!

Ill use it eventually i guess...

ADI never returned my email either...

Expect at least two weeks to get a reply. Two or three experts will look at it first. They are very heavy into procedures and very conservative, due to what they make.

You talkin about a response from ADI or the stooges i know at the range making a decision on buying my powder...?

[Oldbloke]

ADI. Usually pretty slow. But given your PM I must be wrong.

[Maxjon]

Im a trailboss user & am very confident with it.

But i also have 4kg of ASI AS50N laying around for the shotties that doesnt get used much these days...

Im wondering if anyone has any experience with loading centrefire cartridges with this powder (AS50N), for reduced loads...?
And if so, is following standard protocol (say starting loads with 70% case volume & work up) a relatively safe thing to do...?

I havnt looked into it yet, so not sure of bulk density etc, but naturally thought id start with the countries best brains trust...
Curious to hear peoples experiences if any...

Cheers

If you are chasing a subsonic load, 8gns behind a cast bullet of 160gn will work fine. I have loaded 1000s of cast bullet subs in 303,8mm, 6.5mmx55, 7.62 Nagant, 3006, all with this rule of thumb......Any fast burning pistol, shotgun or rifle powder upto and including AR2205. NO SLOWER in burn rate for Subsonics. Before any one gets on the Trailboss train.....yes I do have a 4kg tin which I'm yet to try, I'm not convinced it's the be all, and end all, that's all.

[Maxjon]

Never used fillers either, no need for them.

[xcb]

I don't have anything for the .204. I have no experience with loading for .22-250. I have very little experience with reloading. So I've just simply typed in some data from the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition for 22-250 Remington:

Code: Select all

Lyman #225438 44gr (#2 Alloy) 2.185' OAL BC: .094 SD: .125
| Powder    | Sugg     | Velocity | Pressure | Max    | Velocity | Pressure |
|           | Starting |      fps |    C.U.P | Load   |      fps |   C.U.P. |
|           | Grains   |          |          | Grains |          |          |
|-----------+----------+----------+----------+--------+----------+----------|
| 700X      | 7.0      |     2020 |    20300 | 10.0   |     2502 |    35700 |
| Green Dot | 7.0      |     1920 |    16700 | 10.5   |     2468 |    35100 |

Lyman #225415 55gr (#2 Alloy) 2.325' OAL BC .116 SD: .157
| Powder    | Sugg     | Velocity | Pressure | Max    | Velocity | Pressure |
|           | Starting |      fps |    C.U.P | Load   |      fps |   C.U.P. |
|           | Grains   |          |          | Grains |          |          |
|-----------+----------+----------+----------+--------+----------+----------|
| 700X      | 7.0      |     1850 |    18000 | 9.0    |     2268 |    33500 |
| Green Dot | 7.5      |     1992 |    21000 | 10.0   |     2356 |    34500 |

Saeco (Redding) #221 60 gr. (#2 Alloy) OAL 2.285' BC: .126 SD: .171
| Powder    | Sugg     | Velocity | Pressure | Max    | Velocity | Pressure |
|           | Starting |      fps |    C.U.P | Load   |      fps |   C.U.P. |
|           | Grains   |          |          | Grains |          |          |
|-----------+----------+----------+----------+--------+----------+----------|
| 700X      | 7.0      |     1743 |    21000 | 11.0   |     2351 |    41100 |
| Green Dot | 7.5      |     1743 |    19300 | 11.5   |     2340 |    40800 |

Lyman #225646 55gr (#2 Alloy) 2.350' OAL BC .155 SD: .157
| Powder    | Sugg     | Velocity | Pressure | Max    | Velocity | Pressure |
|           | Starting |      fps |    C.U.P | Load   |      fps |   C.U.P. |
|           | Grains   |          |          | Grains |          |          |
|-----------+----------+----------+----------+--------+----------+----------|
| 700X      | 8.0      |     1887 |    24500 | 11.0   |     2286 |    40200 |
| Green Dot | 8.2      |     1862 |    23200 | 11.5   |     2292 |    39700 |


I think I should just tweak the ADI Powder equivalents disclaimer a little to suit the above tables:

Note: These tables are only approximate. Actual burning rates can vary depending on the calibre, weapon, loading components and practices, as well as from powder lot to powder lot. As a consequence it must be understood that I cannot accept any responsibility for the use of this information in any way.

[Oldbloke]

They are approximate only.

Powder Equivalents.jpg (475.19 KiB) Viewed 11352 times

[in2anity]

DISCLAIMER; do not try this at home. At the risk of unmasking my recklessness; If you’re not super precious about the gun, personally I reckon I’d have the kahunas to pull the trigger on 7.0grs in a 204, say under a moderate jacketed pill. Use thick brass and tilt the barrel skyward to get the powder back on the primer, and shoot the first with your face away from the action. DISCLAIMER; do not try this at home.