3 men caught spotlighting in Tallangatta VIC

[marksman]

Gwion
I don't think anyone here is supporting poachers at all,
I particularly hate them as you say they make all of us look bad and we have enough of a hard time as it is
what I do say is that there is not enough in the report to make a determination

a) freshly shot sambar deer, dark at 5.30pm they are pulled over at 8.00pm, not enough time for rig amortise to set in so they could be right saying freshly shot between 5.30-6.00pm when it is still legal to shoot
b) the sambar was found in the back of the ute not the back seat, from what is written in the report
c) unsecured means the firearm was easily accessible so it was in the cabin with them that's all, not loaded or ready to fire, just in the cab with them even if it is in a case or bag, the firearm should have been in the back of the ute even in a bag it would not have been unsecured
d) spotlight is a real hard one, a spotlight is now defined as any source of artificial light, infrared devise, night vision or heat detection device

here is the fact sheet for all to see about possession and use of spotlights in recognised deer habitat, has a lot of other stuff deer hunters should know
http://www.gma.vic.gov.au/__data/assets ... rtwork.pdf

as I said Gwion I hate poachers but I don't think there is enough in the report to hang these guys yet

[sungazer]

The light / spot light one is really stacked against you. As it really means that you have to be back to your car or camp before dark or risk walking in the dark without a torch. A well prepared person is always going to put a torch in his backpack.
I am not standing up for the practice of illegal shooting at all. I just try to take the reporting in the context of who is doing the reporting. As in these days everything bad is exaggerated enormously to create a headline and a story.
Even the weather reports of late have been beat up to the extent of trying to create drama.

[Gaznazdiak]

As someone who doesn't live where there are any other than farmed deer, I'm a little confused at the protection of a feral pest species.

It may be a dumbarse question, but why aren't they treated like other invasive pests?

If they were found with a dead pig in the ute they'd be praised.

[Bigjobss]

I appreciate what you are saying marksman. I am a cynical bastard and dont take generic statements at face value as they are often used to misrepresent, give me cold hard facts and specific details instead of vague defintions.
That being said I dont support the alleged poachers, they are probably guilty and I want to know more about what happened.

[Bigjobss]

As someone who doesn't live where there are any other than farmed deer, I'm a little confused at the protection of a feral pest species.

It may be a dumbarse question, but why aren't they treated like other invasive pests?

If they were found with a dead pig in the ute they'd be praised.

I would say these days the major issue is around the safety of spotlighting in a public space.

[Gaznazdiak]

As someone who doesn't live where there are any other than farmed deer, I'm a little confused at the protection of a feral pest species.

It may be a dumbarse question, but why aren't they treated like other invasive pests?

If they were found with a dead pig in the ute they'd be praised.

I would say these days the major issue is around the safety of spotlighting in a public space.

Oh, OK.
It's actually the spotlighting itself that's the issue, not the deer?
So, they'd have been busted even without the deer, just the spotlight and the rifle on public land after dark?

[Gwion]

If you read the linked fact sheet, you can have a 'spotlight' in or on a vehicle as long as it is not in use. Also, a torch used for navigation is not considered a spotlight.

[marksman]

I appreciate what you are saying marksman. I am a cynical bastard and dont take generic statements at face value as they are often used to misrepresent, give me cold hard facts and specific details instead of vague defintions.
That being said I dont support the alleged poachers, they are probably guilty and I want to know more about what happened.

that's all I'm saying, I don't support them either but want to know more before I throw the first stone
the report did not have cold hard facts
apart from the unsecured firearm and the spotlight that could be a small torch in the glovebox nothing else is proven

and Gaz the reason the deer are treated like they are and put on such a high pedestal is because of the deer associations not the government, dwelp or greens who would like them treated like pest animals eg.. rabbits/foxes/feral cats ect and eradicated

[marksman]

If you read the linked fact sheet, you can have a 'spotlight' in or on a vehicle as long as it is not in use. Also, a torch used for navigation is not considered a spotlight.

not if there firearm is deemed to be unsecured

[Gaznazdiak]

If you read the linked fact sheet, you can have a 'spotlight' in or on a vehicle as long as it is not in use. Also, a torch used for navigation is not considered a spotlight.

Don't you love it when a government dept puts out a document about what is and isn't legal, then puts a fine print disclaimer at the end saying they can't actually guarantee it's correct?

[Gwion]

Didn't read tbe fine print!

[Bigjobss]

As someone who doesn't live where there are any other than farmed deer, I'm a little confused at the protection of a feral pest species.

It may be a dumbarse question, but why aren't they treated like other invasive pests?

If they were found with a dead pig in the ute they'd be praised.

I would say these days the major issue is around the safety of spotlighting in a public space.

Oh, OK.
It's actually the spotlighting itself that's the issue, not the deer?
So, they'd have been busted even without the deer, just the spotlight and the rifle on public land after dark?

Yeh Sambar are pretty much considered a pest now.

EDIT:
It is slightly more complex than that because of the very recent history of Sambar being a legitimate Game species, which they kinda sorta are and arent because the species itself is a premier quarry for the most skilled of hunters but their population and public perception are changing quickly.
IMO spotlighters are still cheating dog ****s that should be spotlighted themselves, and the safety factor whilst very very valid is a close second.

[Gwion]

If you read the linked fact sheet, you can have a 'spotlight' in or on a vehicle as long as it is not in use. Also, a torch used for navigation is not considered a spotlight.

not if there firearm is deemed to be unsecured

Ok. The way i see it, if you go out you should know the law and comply. Simple as that. Ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law. Some guys i shoot with stir me up about being so 'to the letter' but as i tell them, it's just not worth losing everything for a little bit of laziness or ignorance.

And, in all seriousness, we all know they were in all probability illegally spotlighting in the scenario given.
Even if they weren't illegally spotlighting and got done as described, they were breaking the law, wether they think it's too onerous to comply with or not, it falls on them to ensure they comply with all relevant laws. That's what being a Law Abiding Firearms Owner means.

[marksman]

I agree and hope anyone who reads this and wants to hunt deer understands its not just getting a game licence
laziness or ignorance is not good enough just like poaching
the info is there
I should also say that these laws involving deer habitat are not just for deer hunters,
if you enter deer habitat you have to abide these rules/laws even if you are shooting pest animals or passing through

[Gaznazdiak]

If you read the linked fact sheet, you can have a 'spotlight' in or on a vehicle as long as it is not in use. Also, a torch used for navigation is not considered a spotlight.

not if there firearm is deemed to be unsecured

Ok. The way i see it, if you go out you should know the law and comply. Simple as that. Ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law. Some guys i shoot with stir me up about being so 'to the letter' but as i tell them, it's just not worth losing everything for a little bit of laziness or ignorance.

And, in all seriousness, we all know they were in all probability illegally spotlighting in the scenario given.
Even if they weren't illegally spotlighting and got done as described, they were breaking the law, wether they think it's too onerous to comply with or not, it falls on them to ensure they comply with all relevant laws. That's what being a Law Abiding Firearms Owner means.

Well said.
A lot of people who don't know a subject well will judge by what they hear most about.
"Old Mate went shooting, obeyed all the laws and everyone got home safe" doesn't make for tabloid clickbait so what they hear trotted out is those who are breaking the rules, and we all get judged by this lowest common denominator.

[sungazer]

I didnt read the fact sheet which is pretty dumb. I was going off a leaflet that was delivered in the mail "due to living in deer habitat" some years ago when they changed the regulations at that time they quoted with the recent updates in technology and the invent of new high power LED torches that all torches were banned. They must have got some push back if it has changed.

[Gwion]

I didnt read the fact sheet which is pretty dumb. I was going off a leaflet that was delivered in the mail "due to living in deer habitat" some years ago when they changed the regulations at that time they quoted with the recent updates in technology and the invent of new high power LED torches that all torches were banned. They must have got some push back if it has changed.

No worries, mate. But is is good to know that a legitimate hunter can easily avoid any trouble if caught out after dark by simply having rifle unloaded and ammo packed away (ie: not just in a pocket, i would assume.

[marksman]

I didnt read the fact sheet which is pretty dumb. I was going off a leaflet that was delivered in the mail "due to living in deer habitat" some years ago when they changed the regulations at that time they quoted with the recent updates in technology and the invent of new high power LED torches that all torches were banned. They must have got some push back if it has changed.

No worries, mate. But is is good to know that a legitimate hunter can easily avoid any trouble if caught out after dark by simply having rifle unloaded and ammo packed away (ie: not just in a pocket, i would assume.

in deer habitat it's not that simple
especially if you are in a ute, no firearms or ammo in cab, makes it hard for farmers who would usually put the firearm behind the seat out of sight
unsecured can be ammo in the glovebox, locked or not
as I said not just for deer hunters but anyone who passes through deer habitat, there is no distinction or cal, you could get done with a 22 for unsecured
it's pretty easy to become non legitimate read the fact sheets properly
I may be wrong Gwion but I recon you might have struggled with unsecured and spotlights in deer habitat, especially before these posts were put up

[Gwion]

But it is easy. You just set yourself up to comply with the legislation and regs and then comply. If you need to, secure a ute box in the back when you head out. No point complaining that it is too painful to do. Don't get me wrong, i find it just as tedious as you to stop, unload rifle and mag, take out bolt, put ammo in $10 Bunnings lock box, stick it under the seat, put rifle, mag and bolt in gunbag/case and stow it out of reach, drive to next property (might be 2mins away), set it all up again..... hell, i may never and probably won't ever get pulled up for it but in the off chance i do, I'd rather be safe than sorry, facing court on a weapons charge and losing all my gear. It's tedious but really only takes a couple of minutes to do. Yes, i have a whinge while doing sometimes but it's better than the alternative if pulled up.

Never the less, i was referring to the scenario where a hunter has a torch to navigate back to camp or vehicle. Easy to comply. Just unload (to be sure, i would also remove bolt) and pack ammo in the bottom of day pack at the conclusion of hunting for the day if i was likely to be out more than half hour after sunset.

[winton]

Whenever I travel with firearms, the firearm unloaded and in a bag at the back of the cab and ammunition is separately stored. I consider this to be secure. If it was in the tray, how would it be secure? Its meant to be secure from others not secure from one self. You still have access to a firearms regardless of whether its in the back or in the cab. I don't think the legislation requires you to put a few more seconds of diffuculty in accessing a firearm for the purpose of taking a deer at night.

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but that is what I understand from the regs here in vic.

[marksman]

sorry mate but you are being corrected winton,
if you listen to Gwion you are going to loose your gear and have a bad day in court if you put your ammunition under the seat in deer habitat
between sunset and sunrise your firearms and ammunition cannot be easily accessible in deer habitat
in a ute you cannot store a firearm or ammunition in the cab, obviously a lock box would be nice but that is not a necessity
it's also worded that you cannot have your ammunition in the glovebox locked or not
you do not want to get done for unsecured firearm or ammo
remember dewlp law is not the same as vicpol,
I wonder if there is any more news about these guys
anyway its usually when the dewlp and police are doing roadblocks in an area because of poaching you hear these sort of story's

[Gwion]

It's not listening to me, it's understanding what the guidelines state.

[NTSOG]

Section 126 of the Firearms Act: ''While being transported, firearms and ammunition should be kept out of sight and stored in separate receptacles that are either secured to the inside of your vehicle or in a lockable component of your vehicle; and ...''

So where does that leave those of us with no lockable 'receptacle' such as a boot: I have an old Nissan Patrol [1996] and a Subaru Impreza hatchback. My wife uses the Patrol for horse events and would not accept a fixed compartment for my rifle as she sleeps in the car at horse events. The Impreza is also out being the day-to-day family car and it would be hard to fit a ''receptacle''. I guess I will have to talk to the local Copper.

With regard to spotlights in recognised deer habitat, that also includes night vision scopes - I have been told by the local Firearms Officer. Actually where I live is not recognised deer habitat - I asked the Game Management Authority - but I would not take a risk with being caught out with my night-vision scope on Crown Land as there are still red deer all around.

Jim

[marksman]

section 126 of the firearms act is a should not a has to? so you should but there is no law that says you have to,
it depends on the officer at that time to what will happen next

the car is lockable, the Vic firearms licence testers have been promoting for some time that you must have your firearms and ammo in a locked container while travelling but that is BS, it is a good idea to carry it in a locked container but it is not law, as I wrote your car is lockable and keeping the firearms and ammo out of sight is just a good idea not law either, there is a hell of a lot of BS spread in the name of firearm safety,
usually by the instructors who think they are safety gods always looking for something to pick at
the safety test is should's and musts, should's should be done and musts have to be done, there not try to confuse you at all

the local DFO would not have a clue where deer habitat is, you need DELWP verification

the laws we are talking about is not Vic state firearms law, its the GMA, DELWP laws
here is a link to the manual
http://www.gma.vic.gov.au/education/hun ... ing-manual

[NTSOG]

Thanks for that Marksman. I did note the 'shoulds', but the risks when one gets the interpretation wrong in relation to shooting and firearms are so great nowadays that it is better to take extra care and ask those who are more experienced.

As for areas classified as deer habitat I did ask the Game Management Authority, not the local Fire Arms Officer. My district is not classified as a recognised deer habitat, though there is a resident herd of red deer. The Officer did make it clear that my Yukon night sight had the same illegal status as a spotlight if I was out at night on Crown Land considered deer habitat.

Jim

[marksman]

no worries Jim
I am pretty damn sure I know the area you are in and it can be pretty iffy so its better to just do it as if you are in the deer habitat and you will always be ok
if I am right about the area a fisheries guy lives in the area and does not like shooting

[Archie]

Section 126 of the Firearms Act: ''While being transported, firearms and ammunition should be kept out of sight and stored in separate receptacles that are either secured to the inside of your vehicle or in a lockable component of your vehicle; and ...''

So where does that leave those of us with no lockable 'receptacle' such as a boot: I have an old Nissan Patrol [1996] and a Subaru Impreza hatchback. My wife uses the Patrol for horse events and would not accept a fixed compartment for my rifle as she sleeps in the car at horse events. The Impreza is also out being the day-to-day family car and it would be hard to fit a ''receptacle''. I guess I will have to talk to the local Copper.

With regard to spotlights in recognised deer habitat, that also includes night vision scopes - I have been told by the local Firearms Officer. Actually where I live is not recognised deer habitat - I asked the Game Management Authority - but I would not take a risk with being caught out with my night-vision scope on Crown Land as there are still red deer all around.

Jim

I chain a lockable hard case to the inside of the 4wd via the back seat bar - i.e, secured to the inside of the vehicle.

[NTSOG]

Thanks Archie, that's a good idea.

Jim.

[winton]

sorry mate but you are being corrected winton,

Thanks Marksman

From reading the factsheet I get that the GMA are enforcing a different set of regulations which applies to deer habitat.

I'm gonna have to up my storage game. Now way I wanna mess with a prosecution.

[marksman]

the GMA regs are not taught but are expected that you just know about them, if you don't hunt with a game licence why would you know about them?
if you only hunt pest animals and have no game licence you do not get any info about deer habitat or the GMA regs
it is not clear cut and you will get stung if you don't store ammo or firearms in deer habitat from sunset till dawn by there regs
there are shooters who don't know the GMA law because they don't have a game licence and why would they be expected to