sungazer wrote:The distance and wobble is not in jest. Many very experienced balatisticians will advise that 140 yrds is the best distance to test your loads. I could give you references in Bryan litz book and others but cant be arsed.
SCJ429 wrote:A friend runs a shooting course at the range, only 10% of hunters can shoot the required one inch group at 100. They would not be using a 30-06, usually considerably smaller and easier to shoot.
bigfellascott wrote:You do know it's a hunting rifle not a target rifle? 30mm group would be fine for this rifles intended purpose.
sungazer wrote:I helped do some load development with a very skilled shooter on the weekend. We were using two chronos the Ohler a standard in the industry perfectly set up and a magneto speed. Turned out there was a pretty constant difference so either result was acceptable.
He shot quite a few loads 3 of each in 0.2 gn steps. He plotted the MV increase against load and had a linear line to a point say of 20fps per 0.2 grn then reached a point where the again linear line changed to 10 fps per 0.2 grn.
He is a excellent shooter however the groupings which were shot on individual target so the group and the horizontal step could be seen. Well the result was not a conclusive elevation against MV nor where the evident Nodes.
We have concluded it is about achieving the MV that you are after for that particular bullet there is a sweet spot in MV and BC. Then adjust seating depth to achieve a good group.
TassieTiger wrote:bigfellascott wrote:You do know it's a hunting rifle not a target rifle? 30mm group would be fine for this rifles intended purpose.
Yeah, I know...it’s also a lightweight hunting rifle, this part of my question is, is this acceptable...
I guess I’m wanting to meet manufacturers claims of 1 inch, 3 shot group at 100m and I want to be able to do that reliably.
It may well be that 200gn projectiles are not conducive to being Moa in this rifle...I get that...I’m just testing / seeking knowledge.
TassieTiger wrote:If you look at the 3rd photo - 83.60, that group measured 21mm. Good enough for deer and roo as long as it will be consistent.
The issue for me, especially early in, was the 3+ inch spreads from some of the other ammo - in particular some of the factory ammo that is 2-3mm shorter in length was spraying.
I’ve now fired 3 types of factory ammo through this rifle and cannot better 2.5 inch groupings. Hand loading - yes, i’m getting there...I will make it shoot darn the world!!!
Now, if you weren’t a hand loader and bought a brand new (yes - light weight, carry around sporting gun with fluted barrel) rifle for $1400 that was shooting 60-75mm groupings - would you be content? Serious question...
marksman wrote:TassieTiger wrote:If you look at the 3rd photo - 83.60, that group measured 21mm. Good enough for deer and roo as long as it will be consistent.
The issue for me, especially early in, was the 3+ inch spreads from some of the other ammo - in particular some of the factory ammo that is 2-3mm shorter in length was spraying.
I’ve now fired 3 types of factory ammo through this rifle and cannot better 2.5 inch groupings. Hand loading - yes, i’m getting there...I will make it shoot darn the world!!!
Now, if you weren’t a hand loader and bought a brand new (yes - light weight, carry around sporting gun with fluted barrel) rifle for $1400 that was shooting 60-75mm groupings - would you be content? Serious question...
no feckin way would I be happy
even at 30mm it would be gone back to be checked out and fixed
that rifle should be shooting 1/2 moa with factory ammo
the reason for the hunting accuracy proverb is the american hunters that can hit a bucket sized object with there 30-30 are only shooting at 50 yard distances and dont care enough if they spoil meat, having an accurate rifle is very important, 3 shots into a 10 cent piece at 100 is minimum for hunting
one ragged hole is better
TassieTiger wrote:If you look at the 3rd photo - 83.60, that group measured 21mm. Good enough for deer and roo as long as it will be consistent.
The issue for me, especially early in, was the 3+ inch spreads from some of the other ammo - in particular some of the factory ammo that is 2-3mm shorter in length was spraying.
I’ve now fired 3 types of factory ammo through this rifle and cannot better 2.5 inch groupings. Hand loading - yes, i’m getting there...I will make it shoot darn the world!!!
Now, if you weren’t a hand loader and bought a brand new (yes - light weight, carry around sporting gun with fluted barrel) rifle for $1400 that was shooting 60-75mm groupings - would you be content? Serious question...
marksman wrote:TassieTiger wrote:If you look at the 3rd photo - 83.60, that group measured 21mm. Good enough for deer and roo as long as it will be consistent.
The issue for me, especially early in, was the 3+ inch spreads from some of the other ammo - in particular some of the factory ammo that is 2-3mm shorter in length was spraying.
I’ve now fired 3 types of factory ammo through this rifle and cannot better 2.5 inch groupings. Hand loading - yes, i’m getting there...I will make it shoot darn the world!!!
Now, if you weren’t a hand loader and bought a brand new (yes - light weight, carry around sporting gun with fluted barrel) rifle for $1400 that was shooting 60-75mm groupings - would you be content? Serious question...
no feckin way would I be happy
even at 30mm it would be gone back to be checked out and fixed
that rifle should be shooting 1/2 moa with factory ammo
the reason for the hunting accuracy proverb is the american hunters that can hit a bucket sized object with there 30-30 are only shooting at 50 yard distances and dont care enough if they spoil meat, having an accurate rifle is very important, 3 shots into a 10 cent piece at 100 is minimum for hunting
one ragged hole is better
TassieTiger wrote:marksman wrote:TassieTiger wrote:If you look at the 3rd photo - 83.60, that group measured 21mm. Good enough for deer and roo as long as it will be consistent.
The issue for me, especially early in, was the 3+ inch spreads from some of the other ammo - in particular some of the factory ammo that is 2-3mm shorter in length was spraying.
I’ve now fired 3 types of factory ammo through this rifle and cannot better 2.5 inch groupings. Hand loading - yes, i’m getting there...I will make it shoot darn the world!!!
Now, if you weren’t a hand loader and bought a brand new (yes - light weight, carry around sporting gun with fluted barrel) rifle for $1400 that was shooting 60-75mm groupings - would you be content? Serious question...
no feckin way would I be happy
even at 30mm it would be gone back to be checked out and fixed
that rifle should be shooting 1/2 moa with factory ammo
the reason for the hunting accuracy proverb is the american hunters that can hit a bucket sized object with there 30-30 are only shooting at 50 yard distances and dont care enough if they spoil meat, having an accurate rifle is very important, 3 shots into a 10 cent piece at 100 is minimum for hunting
one ragged hole is better
Based on the fact the manufacturers “only” claim Moa “capability” (and that term is important), I don’t think you’d find any retail outlet that would accept your wants here at 1/2 Moa.
I knew what I was buying - I have the same rifle (223) in a heavy barrel, but I wanted a light weight walker, so I knew I’d be giving up some consistency and some accuracy.
I guess it’s a matter of perspective - what is reasonable spread from a hunt load. 6” for goats is disgusting - I’m sorry, but I wouldn’t shoot with ppl that thought it was okay...but then I’d agree that 2 inches would be fine for goats...I’d prefer 1 inch consistency but I’d live with 2.
For the sake of curiosity and obtaining knowledge more so than anything - I’ll email Steyr, send them my 3 pages of load test / data and see what they say.
Cheers for the discussion - Tas.
SCJ429 wrote:I spent all my money on optics but if I had a GoPro that would work well. Nice one BR.
Bill wrote:tassy tiger quit full length sizing ya brass, its generally not need and certainly doesnt aid accuracy
SCJ429 yes I suspect this 6.5 grendel has more in it but with the current stock and plastic bottom metal are holding it back.
TassieTiger wrote:I tested 2 x 3 shot groupings for each length bullet.
The longest was just touching the lands at 83.93 (absolute max in this is 83.95).
I went down .3 each load to 79.7 - I just didn’t put up 20 photos.
The 83.60 was clearly the best of the bunch but, there was significant vertical stringing as can be seen from a fellow shooter in last photo.
The cases are all once fired hunting (fusion) cases - full length resized.
That being said - neck tension WAS different per load, I could feel it as I was seating some bullets - some would almost fall in and others were a little extra...which didn’t overly concern me.
I guess my question now - if you bought a hunting rifle, brand new and grabbed some middle of the road counter ammo, went out and tried to zero your scope but couldn’t get better than 2-3 inch groups, would you return said rifle or it is what it is? There must be a LOT of hunters who don’t reload and based on my groupings - they’d be missing a shed load...
Yes - the 83.60 groupings look like getting better and there is now more development needed (up in charge I suspect based on advice) but how many ppl would not be happy / would be happy with this performance? (Assuming of course I am not a half wit and can pull a trigger now and again lol)
TassieTiger wrote:bigfellascott wrote:You do know it's a hunting rifle not a target rifle? 30mm group would be fine for this rifles intended purpose.
Yeah, I know...it’s also a lightweight hunting rifle, this part of my question is, is this acceptable...
I guess I’m wanting to meet manufacturers claims of 1 inch, 3 shot group at 100m and I want to be able to do that reliably.
It may well be that 200gn projectiles are not conducive to being Moa in this rifle...I get that...I’m just testing / seeking knowledge.
bladeracer wrote:TassieTiger wrote:bigfellascott wrote:You do know it's a hunting rifle not a target rifle? 30mm group would be fine for this rifles intended purpose.
Yeah, I know...it’s also a lightweight hunting rifle, this part of my question is, is this acceptable...
I guess I’m wanting to meet manufacturers claims of 1 inch, 3 shot group at 100m and I want to be able to do that reliably.
It may well be that 200gn projectiles are not conducive to being Moa in this rifle...I get that...I’m just testing / seeking knowledge.
Would any manufacturer mix inches and meters in the same statement? One-inch at 100m is well under 1MoA.
TassieTiger wrote:100 yards is about 91 metres from memory - so yes - your correct, I am shooting in excess of the manufactures claims - about 10% longer.
I hear what your saying bladeR - but from what I’ve been told, it’s likely that you’d find yourself with a $600 bill and a returned rifle - with no amendments.
My advice is that the steyr factory would have shot this rifle before leaving factory with high spec premium ammunition and recorded a Moa group. If I return the rifle - The Moa card recorded against this serial no will be pulled, details replicated exactly and as long as those results are within 20% of original - they’ve met their obligations and you’ve now got a large bill. They allow a 20% change - due to possible damage in post/transit (I know right - crazy) also need to Keep in mind - their premium ammunition for an 06 could be from 110gns on upwards - to 230gns and precision weighted, precision loads, temp controlled barrel, etc etc etc.
A Moa claim on a rifle is almost impossible to disprove (unless it’s mentally bent or something).
It’s an interesting situation - again, I need to stress - I am not unhappy with the rifle, I know it will shoot, I need to work out the parameters it likes.
How many people are out there that buy a new gun that has an advertised accuracy rating confirmed by a fancy magazine write up marksman with years of experience- that they then try and emulate and can’t get near...I bet there are thousands...
TassieTiger wrote:100 yards is about 91 metres from memory - so yes - your correct, I am shooting in excess of the manufactures claims - about 10% longer.
I hear what your saying bladeR - but from what I’ve been told, it’s likely that you’d find yourself with a $600 bill and a returned rifle - with no amendments.
My advice is that the steyr factory would have shot this rifle before leaving factory with high spec premium ammunition and recorded a Moa group. If I return the rifle - The Moa card recorded against this serial no will be pulled, details replicated exactly and as long as those results are within 20% of original - they’ve met their obligations and you’ve now got a large bill. They allow a 20% change - due to possible damage in post/transit (I know right - crazy) also need to Keep in mind - their premium ammunition for an 06 could be from 110gns on upwards - to 230gns and precision weighted, precision loads, temp controlled barrel, etc etc etc.
A Moa claim on a rifle is almost impossible to disprove (unless it’s mentally bent or something).
It’s an interesting situation - again, I need to stress - I am not unhappy with the rifle, I know it will shoot, I need to work out the parameters it likes.
How many people are out there that buy a new gun that has an advertised accuracy rating confirmed by a fancy magazine write up marksman with years of experience- that they then try and emulate and can’t get near...I bet there are thousands...
TassieTiger wrote:I’ve only shot at my private area, not hunting with it until I understand it’s capability - this group very below measures 21mm - well better than moa at 100 (that’s the gtee, effectively 1 inch group at 100)
But then the exact same load, cool barrel, etc...shot this stringer at top (if that were a roo head shot, might have hit 1 out of 3).