This is what happens when you vote YES

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Re: This is what happens when you vote YES

Post by Patriot » 20 Dec 2018, 10:02 am

Patriot wrote:The founding fathers of the USA had it right and I quote “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness”.So with that in mind I believe that all people are equal under the law,therefore same sex couples should be permitted to have their union officially recognised by the Attorney General of Australia, in other words pursue happiness.
Over the last ten years i believe Australia has changed course and the destination is “tyranny of the the minority”.Had the SSM survey happened Ten years ago I would have voted yes every day of the week but I voted No, despite having a close family member who is gay,I voted no because I am tired being told what is right by the politically correct minority, by having my liberty to say and speak what I think being infringed, and having my pursuit of happiness frustrated by cultral marxists who hate life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Just a follow up,below is an non exhaustive list of the unalienable rights given to human beings upon birth.How many of these are being infringed upon or completely ignored by governments and some of your fellow citizens in Australia today?

To act in self-defense (personal, family, innocents, nation).
To own and carry weapons for self-defense and for ensuring that the nation remains free.
To own and control private property (land, money, personal items, intellectual property, etc.)
To earn a living and keep the fruit of one’s labor.
To freely migrate within the country or to leave the country.
To worship—or not worship—God in the manner one chooses.
To associate with—or disassociate from—any person or group.
To express any idea through print, voice, banner, or other media.
To be secure in one’s home, papers, and person against unwarranted searches and seizures (privacy).
To be advised of the charges, in the event of arrest.
To have a judge determine if the accused should be held for trial or for punishment.
To be tried by a jury of one’s peers and face one’s accuser, in the event of being charged with a crime.
To be tried by a jury of one’s peers, in the event of a suit in which the disputed amount is substantive.
To suffer no cruel or unusual punishment.
To establish, monitor, control, and petition our servant government to help secure the above rights.
To abolish said government, when it becomes destructive of these rights.
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Re: This is what happens when you vote YES

Post by Gaznazdiak » 20 Dec 2018, 12:50 pm

Be nice if it were true Patriot.

History has demonstrated repeatedly that these "rights" are anything but inalienable/unalienable (grammatically interchangeable, take your pick), which means:

"not subject to being taken away from or given away by the possessor."

No right, not even access to breathable air is inalienable, they should be, I agree with you wholeheartedly on that, but reality and human nature will always prevent true, inalienable rights.

PS
Rights given at birth by whom?
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Re: This is what happens when you vote YES

Post by Patriot » 20 Dec 2018, 2:44 pm

Gaznazdiak wrote:Be nice if it were true Patriot.

History has demonstrated repeatedly that these "rights" are anything but inalienable/unalienable (grammatically interchangeable, take your pick), which means:

"not subject to being taken away from or given away by the possessor."

No right, not even access to breathable air is inalienable, they should be, I agree with you wholeheartedly on that, but reality and human nature will always prevent true, inalienable rights.

PS
Rights given at birth by whom?

They are Natural Rights,so nature, or god/creator if you believe that.

Your definition is spot on,the problem is governments have been allowed by the governed or the citizens to infringe upon those rights.A great example is the confiscation of private property by the federal government following the crimes committed at Port Arthur, allowed by a gullible citizenry.So as rights to property are a Natural Right the government vialated the laws of Nature.Another example is anti terrorism laws, where citizens can be held without charge....Government the enemy of all free men!!
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Re: This is what happens when you vote YES

Post by Gaznazdiak » 20 Dec 2018, 4:32 pm

We seem to be in the same chapter Patriot, but not quite on the same page.

I look at little g government as being like the surgical heart/lung machine they use for transplants and such.
I don't really want an outside influence having my life in it's hands but sometimes it just has to be, so I accept it.

Where I see the problem, is not the concept of government because without it we would still be living in feudal anarchy, like Somalia.
The problem, as I see it, is the type of people attracted to the power and influence of being involved in the running of the system.
They almost always have the greed and personality of an ambulance chasing lawyer and the scruples of an itinerant pig rooter.

We need a rule of law based system, and a hierarchy to rub lard on it's axles to keep it running, we just need to weed out all the cvnts mate.
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Re: This is what happens when you vote YES

Post by Patriot » 20 Dec 2018, 7:39 pm

Gaznazdiak wrote:We seem to be in the same chapter Patriot, but not quite on the same page.

I look at little g government as being like the surgical heart/lung machine they use for transplants and such.
I don't really want an outside influence having my life in it's hands but sometimes it just has to be, so I accept it.

Where I see the problem, is not the concept of government because without it we would still be living in feudal anarchy, like Somalia.
The problem, as I see it, is the type of people attracted to the power and influence of being involved in the running of the system.
They almost always have the greed and personality of an ambulance chasing lawyer and the scruples of an itinerant pig rooter.

We need a rule of law based system, and a hierarchy to rub lard on it's axles to keep it running, we just need to weed out all the cvnts mate.


Indeed mate...cvnts they are
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Re: This is what happens when you vote YES

Post by Ziad » 21 Dec 2018, 9:53 am

Hey Patriot can I ask what are these "unalienable rights given to human beings upon birth". And who gives it to humans.... unless babies are delivered by storks still and they come with an instruction manual and the rights were in it. I know mine missed out as the was no instruction manual.. unless the doctor threw it out.

And well I have read a few books from God, none of them mention any of these rights, and again who in nature gave out these rights... which begs a question, if nature (instead of God) gave these rights why didnt she give the rights to a chimpanzee or a fox, what makes humans so special?
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Re: This is what happens when you vote YES

Post by Patriot » 21 Dec 2018, 10:31 am

Ziad wrote:Hey Patriot can I ask what are these "unalienable rights given to human beings upon birth". And who gives it to humans.... unless babies are delivered by storks still and they come with an instruction manual and the rights were in it. I know mine missed out as the was no instruction manual.. unless the doctor threw it out.

And well I have read a few books from God, none of them mention any of these rights, and again who in nature gave out these rights... which begs a question, if nature (instead of God) gave these rights why didnt she give the rights to a chimpanzee or a fox, what makes humans so special?


Hey Ziad,

Some of the rights are listed above.As human beings we have a conscience and the ability to reason and to control our natural instincts,so when you look at that I think that makes us a pretty special species,but by no means perfect and some of us better examples than others.

So as human beings these basic rights are bestowed upon at birth to enable us to stay alive basically and I believe no other person should be able to infringe upon them.In saying that one has to behave one self and not infringe on the rights of others.

Just my opinion though mate and if I’m wrong I’m happy to shown so.
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Re: This is what happens when you vote YES

Post by Gaznazdiak » 21 Dec 2018, 11:22 am

What makes humans so special?

Humans think they are special because they have been telling themselves they are the center of the universe for millennia.

Look at the central themes of the major monotheistic religions.
A supernatural being, sitting in the dark apparently, suddenly decided to lighten the place up and build an entire universe for one creature, the human, and what's more, created these creatures in it's own image.

So right off they own everything and it's all just for them, and to top it off, they are godlike.

Raise a child that way and what do you get?
A selfish, greedy narcissist who thinks the world and it's contents is their playground.

Dinosaurs were dominant for hundreds of millions of years, and if not for the Chicxulub asteroid, still would be.

But we apes are far smarter than the dinosaurs, we've built our own asteroid. It's going to take a century or two to achieve the same effect, but we are busy at it.
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Re: This is what happens when you vote YES

Post by Ziad » 21 Dec 2018, 12:48 pm

Patriot I get rest of your post, the only issue i have is with the bestowed upon us part. Who did the bestowing......

I am either over thinking, or you haven't thought it through, just read a document somewhere liked the idea and ran with it. So I started google machine, appears you have read some ideas by a 17th century philosopher and the declaration of independence (America). Good ideas but not something that will run anywhere else except America.

As I see it, we live in a democratic system similar to roman/greek, where we have responsibilities and functions to perform, and we have another body of people who's responsibilities is to provide us basis of living, a framework of rules. And we can choose the bunch of people. Like all systems the decisions taken by the chosen few might not benefit everyone in the society, and not everyone in the society will agree with all of the decisions taken. But the overarching principle that any society is built upon that the general population do their part and observe the laws as set for that society, or anarchy will happen.

Thus going back to your post, I will say with respect, that some of your basic rights as you call them go against the rules set by the government, and talk of over throwing the government is bordering on anarchy.

Also what is to say if the rules you posted only a small minority hold true, and the rest dont wan't in their lives anyway.
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Re: This is what happens when you vote YES

Post by Gaznazdiak » 21 Dec 2018, 12:55 pm

Ziad wrote:Patriot I get rest of your post, the only issue i have is with the bestowed upon us part. Who did the bestowing......

I am either over thinking, or you haven't thought it through, just read a document somewhere liked the idea and ran with it. So I started google machine, appears you have read some ideas by a 17th century philosopher and the declaration of independence (America). Good ideas but not something that will run anywhere else except America.

As I see it, we live in a democratic system similar to roman/greek, where we have responsibilities and functions to perform, and we have another body of people who's responsibilities is to provide us basis of living, a framework of rules. And we can choose the bunch of people. Like all systems the decisions taken by the chosen few might not benefit everyone in the society, and not everyone in the society will agree with all of the decisions taken. But the overarching principle that any society is built upon that the general population do their part and observe the laws as set for that society, or anarchy will happen.

Thus going back to your post, I will say with respect, that some of your basic rights as you call them go against the rules set by the government, and talk of over throwing the government is bordering on anarchy.

Also what is to say if the rules you posted only a small minority hold true, and the rest dont wan't in their lives anyway.


:thumbsup:
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Re: This is what happens when you vote YES

Post by Patriot » 21 Dec 2018, 5:16 pm

Ziad wrote:Patriot I get rest of your post, the only issue i have is with the bestowed upon us part. Who did the bestowing......

I am either over thinking, or you haven't thought it through, just read a document somewhere liked the idea and ran with it. So I started google machine, appears you have read some ideas by a 17th century philosopher and the declaration of independence (America). Good ideas but not something that will run anywhere else except America.

As I see it, we live in a democratic system similar to roman/greek, where we have responsibilities and functions to perform, and we have another body of people who's responsibilities is to provide us basis of living, a framework of rules. And we can choose the bunch of people. Like all systems the decisions taken by the chosen few might not benefit everyone in the society, and not everyone in the society will agree with all of the decisions taken. But the overarching principle that any society is built upon that the general population do their part and observe the laws as set for that society, or anarchy will happen.

Thus going back to your post, I will say with respect, that some of your basic rights as you call them go against the rules set by the government, and talk of over throwing the government is bordering on anarchy.

Also what is to say if the rules you posted only a small minority hold true, and the rest dont wan't in their lives anyway.


Ziad thanks for your comments

Ok,I just googled the Declaration of Independence, what a great document and your right a lot of what I’m saying is stated in it but the ideals go back a lot further than the late 18th century. In fact they come from the great civilisations such as the ones you mentioned the Greeks/Romans these societies believed in the sovereign right of the individual and republican government the great Founding Fathers of the USA believed the same.I disagree though that those ideals will only run in America.If you read both the Australian and US constitutions you will see a lot of similarities except there are a lot more checks on the executive and the congress in the US the main one being the Bill of Rights.The Bill of Rights ensure the unalienable rights I have been banging on about.I believe if you asked most Australians, do you think we should have those rights I mentioned above inshrined in the constitution so they are safe from the government of the day i.e.can only be change by referendum most of the people would support most of the rights. As to overthrowing the government,that’s not what I’m saying.When a system of government no one longer serves the governed the governed should replace it with one that does,I believe the current system does not serve the people it serves those in Canberra and state capitals.You are correct, those rights are in opposition to the government,they are supposed to be,they are protecting the citizens from the government, or protecting the individual from the tyranny of the majority.Australians typically have gone along with “government knows best” that sought of thinking got 60000 of our best and bravest killed on western front,as I have said before governments are the enemy of all free men.
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