22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

[Oldbloke]

Apollo is correct, it seems to happen with slow burning powders when you have a reduced charge with a lot of air space. And I believe it is a rare event. I think the burn becomes uncontrolled and a much faster rate than normal. This is perhaps because at the start of ignition the remaining powder is pushed like a wave up onto the air space crating a "cloud" with a greater amount of powder surface area than normal exposed to heat. A bit like dust explosions in silos. I may be wrong but I thought they were were considered detonations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detonation

In any case I want to avoid that possibility. I will contact ADI.

[Apollo]

I would be interested if you could share the ADI responce.

Not that it's on topic but the SEE is not really proven under test conditions but it is a real risk of happening just like you say, like dust in a silo.

Greatly reduced fast powder loads I have no idea as I don't experiment with either way but I'd go along with some more common things I have found mentioned like inconsistant burn, velocity and accuracy since it poses the problem of where that reduced charge of powder sits in the cartridge case at the time of detonation. Like at the back sitting on the primer, laying along the side or up behind the seated bullet.

Not going to comment further on what is or is not safe as I do not have the expertise or knowledge.

[Kater]

Apollo is correct, it seems to happen with slow burning powders when you have a reduced charge with a lot of air space.

I'm not saying it hasn't happened but there has to be more it than that.

Not that it's on topic but the SEE is not really proven under test conditions but it is a real risk of happening just like you say, like dust in a silo.

That's the sticking point for me

Light charges may be part of the issue, but they can't be the only factor. If they were, you would be able to be reproduced it over and over.

For example... ADI data for 150gr .308 is 44gr - 47gr with 2208.

If a light charge was the sole cause then you could load charges at 43, 42, 41, 40, 39 etc. all the way down to zero, fire them all and find the point where SEE occurs.

Say it's 20gr... If you load up a pile of 20gr cartridges and the powder charge was the only problem, you should be able to get SEE to occur repeatedly.

If it was that easy, I'm sure all the powder manufacturers would have cracked it ages ago and could/would tell us exactly where the problem lies. I'm sure they'd be extremely keen to test and prove it if they could.

Again, not saying it doesn't happen, but I think people are too quick to blame things on SEE. Even more so when there is a picture of the aftermath of an explosion on a forum or something, and tonnes of people jump in saying it's SEE when they actually know nothing about what happened are are just looking at a picture of a ruptured rifle.

Not having a go at anyone here with that last comment, just an observation from elsewhere.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the subject. I'm certainly not advocating going below manufacturer load data or saying it's safe to do so or anything to that effect... I just think there is something more to it than blaming a light powder charge. You never know what people did/didn't do to their rifles/cartridges before these things happened.

[Warrigul]

Not going to comment further on what is or is not safe as I do not have the expertise or knowledge.

Good.

[Oldbloke]

Yep, probably is a lot more to it.

[Westy]

Back To Topic...

Hey Oldbloke, look under Trail Boss in the ADI reloading book for .223, it'll alleviate all your angst with flash-over and give you a quieter round!

Now more about the hornet?

[Bills Shed]

I'm just looking for a nice light quite round to shoot foxes and bunies out past 150meter any othe ideas?

Hi Westy,

I have the K- hornet and have acquired a 17 hornet a couple of months ago...

Both are great calibres but I must admit the 17 is the first one that I grab at the moment. It is so fast and flat. You see the result of the shot before the recoil is felt. Recoil is very slight.

I do not shoot factory ammo and all are reloads. Rolled a rabbit last week well in excess of 200m. Drop is only 2.2" at 200m. Makes short work of light skinned animals. It will give you over 750 shots out of a 500 gram tin.

Bill

[keen]

Is 17HMR ammo not cheap enough that you'd just use factory ammo?

I thought that was kind of the idea of rimfire...

[Wobble]

.22 LR ammo is peanuts (You know this obviously, I see you have a 22LR in your signature).

.22 mag, .17 HMR etc. though is still 2-3 times the price.

Not that you'd call that "expensive" but it is more...

[Bills Shed]

Is 17HMR ammo not cheap enough that you'd just use factory ammo?

I thought that was kind of the idea of rimfire...

I have never owned a 17 HMR but I know that it is expensive to just throw the brass away. If you swage your own jacketed projectiles the KHornet is only about 4 cents per shot more to shoot than the long rifle.

The projectile is cheaper than the primer.

I love my little 22LR but if you want to reach out a bit the hornet family fit the bill nicely.

Bill

[keen]

Thanks Bill.

[Norton]

Is 17HMR ammo not cheap enough that you'd just use factory ammo?

I thought that was kind of the idea of rimfire...

It's still well cheaper than centrefire, but expensive as far as rimfire goes.

[Westy]

Well took the 22 Hornet out for it's maiden voyage this weekend and it proformed better than expected,was a awesome little shooter and seemed to preform way above it weight,All I can say is "LOVED IT" and now who wants to buy a Tikka 223 super varmint!!!!LOL

[Chronos]

now who wants to buy a Tikka 223 super varmit!!!!LOL

I'd say this guy

First .223 bolt action

Chronos

[Lorgar]

Good stuff Westy.

We all knew you were going to be happy with an Anschütz though

[Davies]

now who wants to buy a Tikka 223 super varmint

Stick it in the used guns classifieds.

[Westy]

Still deciding which way to Go?

The 223 is still a sweet thing.

[Oldbloke]

Westy, Thanks for the tip on Trail Boss, I didn't notice that in the manual. Too slow for me though. I sent off an email to ADI regarding "light" loads for the .223 and just received this reply. See full reply below.

Reduced loads can be achieved for any cartridge with jacketed projectiles where AR2206H is a standard propellant. Refer to the loads for AR2206H and use 60% of the maximum listed charge weight to achieve reduced velocities of between 1500 and 2500ft/sec. Velocities will obviously vary for different projectile weights. This type of reloading should only be attempted using AR2206H, as it is the slowest powder that still provides uniform light up at reduced loads.

As an example, we have 27.5 gns of AR2206H listed as maximum for a 40gn jacketed projectile in the .223 Remington, so using 60% of this would mean a starting charge weight of 16.5 gns of AR2206H. You can then increase the charge weight until you find your desired velocity.
Please do not attempt to load below 60% of the listed maximum charge weight of AR2206H as light up problems may occur.

[Warrigul]

Well done, ADI's response pretty much concurs with my results when I needed a hornet type load. I used 40 grain magnum projectiles with great success.

Be aware that people with no practical experience on a subject to back up their comments have pretty much killed any desire, for many, to hand out loads. It is a pity.

Good luck.

[Apollo]

And when you have a shot at me for suggesting someone seek professional advice rather than take it from a Forum member I'd re-think your comment you made...!!!

[Chronos]

Be aware that people with no practical experience on a subject to back up their comments have pretty much killed any desire, for many, to hand out loads. It is a pity.

Good luck.

without wanting to take the thread off track again i didn't read anything here like that at all warrigal

what i did read is you saying

"I generally don't give load data out(because there are so many variables and dangers)"

then Apollo said

"If you want to experiment with reducing velocities by around 1/3 and powder loads, yet alone using a powder not recommended for the cartridge I would suggest you send ADI an Email to ask their advice."

Which oldbloke did and guess what? ADI agreed with you and from what I know of Apollo he has about 40 years of reloading knowledge behind him but was wise to offer the best advice he could on this topic (on which he admitted he had no experience and not wanting anyone hurt), ask ADI

i see no reason to continue a an argument where everyone agree's with each other

Chronos

[Westy]

Tell me when you reduce your loads to 60% what are they grouping like???Wouldn't the projectiles want to tumble
Just Curious????

[Warrigul]

Tell me when you reduce your loads to 60% what are they grouping like???Wouldn't the projectiles want to tumble
Just Curious????

It really depends on the twist and the weight of the projectile, if the powder load is light and if the velocity x twist rate(to make it simple) is too low you simply drive it a little bit harder until you get decent groups. I can run a 55 grainer down to 1000fps in my .223 and it is still accurate out to 100, albeit with a hideous drop. The only reason I was using 40 grain .22magnum projectiles is I wanted expansion and they were very cheap

If it isn't stabilising usually you get REALLY bad groups and fliers(like 6" plus), when you see "keyholing" you are definately in trouble.

If it isn't stabilising then you just drive it a bit faster.

[Warrigul]

without wanting to take the thread off track again i didn't read anything here like that at all warrigal

what i did read is you saying

"I generally don't give load data out(because there are so many variables and dangers)"

then Apollo said

"If you want to experiment with reducing velocities by around 1/3 and powder loads, yet alone using a powder not recommended for the cartridge I would suggest you send ADI an Email to ask their advice."

Which oldbloke did and guess what? ADI agreed with you and from what I know of Apollo he has about 40 years of reloading knowledge behind him but was wise to offer the best advice he could on this topic (on which he admitted he had no experience and not wanting anyone hurt), ask ADI

i see no reason to continue a an argument where everyone agree's with each other :LOL:

Chronos

To start with AR2205 is a powder listed by ADI for the .223 for a 40 grain projectile,

Secondly velocity was being reduced by 1/5 not 1/3.

Thirdly it should be noted that people who don't know anything about a subject being discussed would do better to just butt out instead of muddying the waters, especially when they don't have their facts right and they can't offer any alternative.

What you also left out of your quote was the fact that I was going to post a few pics of development targets and leave it up to interpretation.

I would have simply uploaded the development target pictures and Oldbloke would have a tried and true load to use(as a few down here now do) but after appollos comments I saw no need to draw further critiscism.

[Westy]

Tell me when you reduce your loads to 60% what are they grouping like???Wouldn't the projectiles want to tumble
Just Curious????

It really depends on the twist and the weight of the projectile, if the powder load is light and if the velocity x twist rate(to make it simple) is too low you simply drive it a little bit harder until you get decent groups. I can run a 55 grainer down to 1000fps in my .223 and it is still accurate out to 100, albeit with a hideous drop. The only reason I was using 40 grain .22magnum projectiles is I wanted expansion and they were very cheap

If it isn't stabilising usually you get REALLY bad groups and fliers(like 6" plus), when you see "keyholing" you are definately in trouble.

If it isn't stabilising then you just drive it a bit faster.

Whist your groups might not be great, I like yourself love dicking around with diffrent loads to see what will happen and see if you can push the envolope!!! Got my 223 out yesterday and remembered how much I love that thing!!!!

[Warrigul]

Whist your groups might not be great, I like yourself love dicking around with diffrent loads to see what will happen and see if you can push the envolope!!! Got my 223 out yesterday and remembered how much I love that thing!!!!

Yep, gotta love a challenge.

If you are really keen then a chronograph is a must.

[Varmtr]

Westy
If you do get a Hornet get a tin of Hodgdon Lil-Gun thats if you can find it. I use it in my K-Hornet better velocity, accuracy and no pressure signs compared to AR2205. I know of 4 other hornet users that have swapped over to Lil-Gun with the same results I have found.
Lil-Gun can be hard to come by as it's imported by Winchester.

[Westy]

Westy
If you do get a Hornet get a tin of Hodgdon Lil-Gun thats if you can find it. I use it in my K-Hornet better velocity, accuracy and no pressure signs compared to AR2205. I know of 4 other hornet users that have swapped over to Lil-Gun with the same results I have found.
Lil-Gun can be hard to come by as it's imported by Winchester.

Thanks for the heads up Varmtr have been on the look out for some but finding it is as hard as finding new brass for this Cal!!!!

[Rob84]

I have out through 4000 through my 223 and it suits me just fine
Comparing are comparing a 223 to a 17 hornet then it's always going to be loud and no comparison diferent case capacity and a 55gr vs a 20gr projectile
Then comparing to a 300 black which wont launch a 110gr over 2130fps with a smaller poweder capacity than the 223 again

It sounds like you are sold on the 17 hornet so sell you 223 and buy it if that is what suits you
Expensive at cases $48 per 50 for what they are

[Westy]

I have out through 4000 through my 223 and it suits me just fine
Comparing are comparing a 223 to a 17 hornet then it's always going to be loud and no comparison diferent case capacity and a 55gr vs a 20gr projectile
Then comparing to a 300 black which wont launch a 110gr over 2130fps with a smaller poweder capacity than the 223 again

It sounds like you are sold on the 17 hornet so sell you 223 and buy it if that is what suits you
Expensive at cases $48 per 50 for what they are

Ummm we are talking about a 22 hornet here Sorry Mate to have to be the one to tell ytou this!!!