poly coated cast bullets in 357

[mickb]

Hi folks , nice forum. I was looking to try out some of the hawkesbury river and westcastings coated 158grain bullets in a rossi 92 lever action. I understand they can be pushed a lot faster than regular cast without gas checks thanks to the coating.

One question is though since no cast bullet data usually goes this fast, do I just work up safely myself? I could start with moderate jacketed bullet data but jackets put a lot more drag on the bore so I am not sure what will be going on if I use these loads for a polycoated cast. I 'think' it should be safe as they will be causing less pressure?

Another question is what sort of speed can they be pushed. I think one of the sites says 1800fps?

The last question is what will these bullets be doing at impact on pigs and so forth? They are 16BHN which is sort of hard, but at such higher speeds I am wondering if they will expand slightly, fragment or maintain shape and zip through?

Could work all this out by trial and error but was interested to know if anyone has already done any of the above before I commit to a purchase.

[in2anity]

There are listed lead loads for the 158s on ADI see http://www.adi-powders.com.au/rifle/357-magnum. 11.5gr AR2205 under a 158gr lead pill listed as 1382fps.

1800 fps is too fast for HRBCs. In my experience HRBCs are good to 1500-1600fps, but you'll have to venture outside of the listed regions to achieve this, and your accuracy may suffer. This is where a chronograph becomes invaluable - work up slowly and watch for bulging primers in the 92 action. You could possibly try and get your hands on some Hodgdons Lil'Gun if you want more speed.

HRBCs do not expand on game - they poke holes, i've personally tried this. Use a modern hunting bullet for hunting.

[Blr243]

I tried hard cast lead once on a pig with a 44 mag lever but never again. Not fair to the animal. I went straight back to my soft lead hp sierras in my 357 lever

[Blr243]

I tried hard cast lead once on a pig with a 44 mag lever but never again. Not fair to the animal. I went straight back to my soft lead hp sierras in my 357 lever

[Blr243]

Hard cast lead is cheap but they should stay on the rifle range

[bladeracer]

Hi folks , nice forum. I was looking to try out some of the hawkesbury river and westcastings coated 158grain bullets in a rossi 92 lever action. I understand they can be pushed a lot faster than regular cast without gas checks thanks to the coating.

One question is though since no cast bullet data usually goes this fast, do I just work up safely myself? I could start with moderate jacketed bullet data but jackets put a lot more drag on the bore so I am not sure what will be going on if I use these loads for a polycoated cast. I 'think' it should be safe as they will be causing less pressure?

Another question is what sort of speed can they be pushed. I think one of the sites says 1800fps?

The last question is what will these bullets be doing at impact on pigs and so forth? They are 16BHN which is sort of hard, but at such higher speeds I am wondering if they will expand slightly, fragment or maintain shape and zip through?

Could work all this out by trial and error but was interested to know if anyone has already done any of the above before I commit to a purchase.

Cast your own bullets in soft lead and powder coat them if you want to, but you don't have to if you're keeping the velocities lowish. Hard cast bullets are for drilling holes, okay for small game, but on any live target you need very precise shot placement as with FMJ's -brainstem and cervical spine. I wouldn't expect that level of precision out of an older lever-action.

[mickb]

Thanks fellas. Was just curious to know what 16BHN does at 1800-2000fps, since some of the yanks claim this velocity. Its a moot point if the useful velocity is a lot lower, they will of course be doing the hardcast thing and zippin through.

Probably wouldn't agree cast bullets only have their place on the range though. Quite a few hunting sports out there that do pretty well with them. Not everything has to perform like high powered jacketed bullets to be ethical or we wipe out the sports of traditional muzzeloading, BP pistol hunting and archery

[in2anity]

Thanks fellas. Was just curious to know what 16BHN does at 1800-2000fps, since some of the yanks claim this velocity. Its a moot point if the useful velocity is a lot lower, they will of course be doing the hardcast thing

They’re probably gas checked, you can drive em harder with a check. Without a check, depending on the powder, you see obturation issues. And a lot of the HRBCs are beveled base (BB) so uncheckable

[mickb]

No these are unchecked, eggelston and badman.
Actually they are running some of these over 2200fps, though who knows what accuracy they are getting.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/ ... ities.html
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?t ... ng.790187/

[bladeracer]

Thanks fellas. Was just curious to know what 16BHN does at 1800-2000fps, since some of the yanks claim this velocity. Its a moot point if the useful velocity is a lot lower, they will of course be doing the hardcast thing and zippin through.

Probably wouldn't agree cast bullets only have their place on the range though. Quite a few hunting sports out there that do pretty well with them. Not everything has to perform like high powered jacketed bullets to be ethical or we wipe out the sports of traditional muzzeloading, BP pistol hunting and archery

Black powder generally use soft lead bullets which expand just fine.

[bladeracer]

Thanks fellas. Was just curious to know what 16BHN does at 1800-2000fps, since some of the yanks claim this velocity. Its a moot point if the useful velocity is a lot lower, they will of course be doing the hardcast thing

They’re probably gas checked, you can drive em harder with a check. Without a check, depending on the powder, you see obturation issues. And a lot of the HRBCs are beveled base (BB) so uncheckable

Shouldn't need checks if they're coated.

[cracker]

Hi folks , nice forum. I was looking to try out some of the hawkesbury river and westcastings coated 158grain bullets in a rossi 92 lever action. I understand they can be pushed a lot faster than regular cast without gas checks thanks to the coating.

One question is though since no cast bullet data usually goes this fast, do I just work up safely myself? I could start with moderate jacketed bullet data but jackets put a lot more drag on the bore so I am not sure what will be going on if I use these loads for a polycoated cast. I 'think' it should be safe as they will be causing less pressure?

Another question is what sort of speed can they be pushed. I think one of the sites says 1800fps?

The last question is what will these bullets be doing at impact on pigs and so forth? They are 16BHN which is sort of hard, but at such higher speeds I am wondering if they will expand slightly, fragment or maintain shape and zip through?

Could work all this out by trial and error but was interested to know if anyone has already done any of the above before I commit to a purchase.

Cast your own bullets in soft lead and powder coat them if you want to, but you don't have to if you're keeping the velocities lowish. Hard cast bullets are for drilling holes, okay for small game, but on any live target you need very precise shot placement as with FMJ's -brainstem and cervical spine. I wouldn't expect that level of precision out of an older lever-action.

used softcast in my 44-40 makes a bloody mess of the barrel, never again such a pain in the ass

[mickb]

Thanks fellas. Was just curious to know what 16BHN does at 1800-2000fps, since some of the yanks claim this velocity. Its a moot point if the useful velocity is a lot lower, they will of course be doing the hardcast thing and zippin through.

Probably wouldn't agree cast bullets only have their place on the range though. Quite a few hunting sports out there that do pretty well with them. Not everything has to perform like high powered jacketed bullets to be ethical or we wipe out the sports of traditional muzzeloading, BP pistol hunting and archery

Black powder generally use soft lead bullets which expand just fine.

Blackpowder often uses hardcast as well mate, so do many pistols for hunting.

[Diamond Jim]

I use Westcasting Moly-coated projectiles almost exclusively for punching paper and I continue to buy them over and over again. The information from the firm was to use data for equivalent weight copper-cased projectiles. I don't. I'm only trying to make a certain power factor and load accordingly.
I don't use my .357 rifle for hunting often (sometimes it's the go to rifle) but I wouldn't choose cast bullets for game. I'd choose a dedicated and properly constructed flat-nosed or hollow-point projectile for hunting.

[bladeracer]

Thanks fellas. Was just curious to know what 16BHN does at 1800-2000fps, since some of the yanks claim this velocity. Its a moot point if the useful velocity is a lot lower, they will of course be doing the hardcast thing and zippin through.

Probably wouldn't agree cast bullets only have their place on the range though. Quite a few hunting sports out there that do pretty well with them. Not everything has to perform like high powered jacketed bullets to be ethical or we wipe out the sports of traditional muzzeloading, BP pistol hunting and archery

Black powder generally use soft lead bullets which expand just fine.

Blackpowder often uses hardcast as well mate, so do many pistols for hunting.

Not for hunting though.

[mickb]

Not for hunting though.

Not sure if you read the whole sentence , 'so do many pistols for hunting' ? Hardcasts are used all the time for big game around the world hunting mate, with BP or smokless arms.

[mickb]

I use Westcasting Moly-coated projectiles almost exclusively for punching paper and I continue to buy them over and over again. The information from the firm was to use data for equivalent weight copper-cased projectiles. I don't. I'm only trying to make a certain power factor and load accordingly.
I don't use my .357 rifle for hunting often (sometimes it's the go to rifle) but I wouldn't choose cast bullets for game. I'd choose a dedicated and properly constructed flat-nosed or hollow-point projectile for hunting.

Thanks for the tip on loading, I was looking at Westcastings as well. I don't use non-expanding cast either , it works fine but its not my style. Where hardcast is used I'd probably want larger than 357 anyway but the idea is similar to when using big game rifles on very big game with solids or FMJ.

You are using something for which you understand you won't get the same margins of error the expanding bullet can give, but you are happy to sacrifice for extreme penetration. MostAussies the largest thing they shoot is pigs or an occasional deer and I'm not suggesting hardcast will replace anyones softpoints for that.

But as a general subject some of the guys might benefit from checking out castboolits.com or really any pistol or lever forum where they are taking it on large large game or game larger than the gun is usually used for. Hardcast are often the go to where you often dont have a FMJ available in the weight and nose profile you want.

[bladeracer]

Not for hunting though.

Not sure if you read the whole sentence , 'so do many pistols for hunting' ? Hardcasts are used all the time for big game around the world hunting mate, with BP or smokless arms.

I didn't say you can't use hardcast for hunting, many people do, particularly on large game where the alternative is to use FMJ jacketed or brass monolithic bullets. As long as you understand the limitations of your bullet there's no problem hunting with FMJ's. As for handguns, they often operate at velocities that offer little bullet deformation anyway. But as I said, generally black powder hunters would use soft lead bullets.

[bladeracer]

used softcast in my 44-40 makes a bloody mess of the barrel, never again such a pain in the ass

How did the alloy mess up the barrel?
Leading is usually a result of undersized bullets, not the alloy, especially at .44-40 velocities.
I've shot pure lead bullets in most of my rifles with just Alox lube without any leading problems. Make sure the bullets are fat, and keep velocities reasonable.
Or simply powdercoat them.

[bigrich]

I tried hard cast lead once on a pig with a 44 mag lever but never again. Not fair to the animal. I went straight back to my soft lead hp sierras in my 357 lever

How do the sierras perform on game mate ? I haven’t field tested yet , but 158 gn Hornady XTP with little gun are giving me good accuracy and yet to be confirmed good FPS as well. Bin using the FP version of those projectiles , which are supposed to suit rifle projectile speed better. There’s a few things for you to try mickb. The listed max load of 18 gn of little gun is supposed to give FPS between 1750-1850. So some forums say . Take this with a grain of salt , but it gives the 357 some thump with no pressure signs . Cheers

[mickb]

Not for hunting though.

Not sure if you read the whole sentence , 'so do many pistols for hunting' ? Hardcasts are used all the time for big game around the world hunting mate, with BP or smokless arms.

I didn't say you can't use hardcast for hunting, many people do, particularly on large game where the alternative is to use FMJ jacketed or brass monolithic bullets. As long as you understand the limitations of your bullet there's no problem hunting with FMJ's. As for handguns, they often operate at velocities that offer little bullet deformation anyway. But as I said, generally black powder hunters would use soft lead bullets.

Fair call mate, we arent in disagreement if you have an expanding option and the horsepower to push it, its a good idea.

[mickb]

I tried hard cast lead once on a pig with a 44 mag lever but never again. Not fair to the animal. I went straight back to my soft lead hp sierras in my 357 lever

How do the sierras perform on game mate ? I haven’t field tested yet , but 158 gn Hornady XTP with little gun are giving me good accuracy and yet to be confirmed good FPS as well. Bin using the FP version of those projectiles , which are supposed to suit rifle projectile speed better. There’s a few things for you to try mickb. The listed max load of 18 gn of little gun is supposed to give FPS between 1750-1850. So some forums say . Take this with a grain of salt , but it gives the 357 some thump with no pressure signs . Cheers

bigrich I will check it out cheers. Was also looking to pick some Alliant 2400 up as it seems to be back in Australian stores again. Pretty popular in the USA for 357.

[Blr243]

The sierras were working real good. They have a big hollow and a lot of soft lead exposed at the front and then a scored copper jacket. I only moved onto Hornady xtp because when I carried my lever gun in a scabbard on a motorcycle over rough ground all my lead tips were getting all smashed up in the tiube mag due to vibration

[Blr243]

And I think from memory I got better results with faster 125s than the slower 158s 95 per cent of pigs I see are 30 kg and under. In reality I just don’t see enough monster boars to justify loading the 158s

[in2anity]

Shouldn't need checks if they're coated.

So tell me how fast have you successfully driven coated, unchecked lead blade? (without stabilization issues)

[bladeracer]

Shouldn't need checks if they're coated.

So tell me how fast have you successfully driven coated, unchecked lead blade? (without stabilization issues)

Off the top of my head probably not much more than about 1300fps I'd guess. Why would stabilization become an issue at high velocities?
I only started powdercoating early last year so mainly lower-velocity stuff, .38, .44Mag and Trailboss loads in other rifles. I don't personally have any interest in pushing lead fast, I cast for lower-velocities. Recently I've been playing with the 6.5mm milsurps and the 170gn Cruise Missile mould, but I'm only working around the 1300fps region so far, unchecked.

I did send some 161gn uncoated checked hardcast (32% tin) at 2500fps in 8x57mm just to see what it would do, it went through 8mm steel plate at 50m
It leaded the bore horrendously though.

I have plenty of cast stuff though so if you want I could try punching some hard if you like and see how they get on? I've been meaning to do some more cast work with the .223 and .243. Could be fun shooting a bunch of .243 cast down range at increasing velocities. I don't think I have any already coated but I can do a batch pretty quickly. I have a pile of 8mm powder-coated already but they're also checked.

Actually, it just occurred to me that my .223 and .243 are tight-twist rates which will be a limiting factor. And my milsurps are all pretty tight too, I think the slowest is the '03-A3 at 10"-twist. I believe the Win94 .30-30 should be a 12"-twist but haven't checked it. I'm thinking my best bet to find max velocity will be the .44 Magnum.