mickb wrote:Id agree bladeracer regards accuracy potential but I find the 10-20 grains you need to load in a bottleneck centrefire a large step up in noise.
bladeracer wrote:Personally I wouldn't use a lever-rifle. Subsonic bullets work very well, but as you are stuck with such velocity, accuracy becomes more important. I have a good accurate subsonic load in 8x57mm with a 180gn cast bullet, and very quiet. The same can be done in .303, .30-06, etc.
I have subsonic loads in .38 Special and .44 Magnum levers but they lack the accuracy of jacketed bullets.
bladeracer wrote:mickb wrote:Id agree bladeracer regards accuracy potential but I find the 10-20 grains you need to load in a bottleneck centrefire a large step up in noise.
9.5gn of Trailnboss in the 8x57mm, and 8.0gn in 6.5x55mm drives a 95gn VMax subsonic in my M38. I'm using 7.5gn behind a 250gn cast bullet in .44 Magnum for 1000fps. .38Sp though only needs 4.5gn behind 158gn cast bullets.
bigrich wrote:bladeracer wrote:Personally I wouldn't use a lever-rifle. Subsonic bullets work very well, but as you are stuck with such velocity, accuracy becomes more important. I have a good accurate subsonic load in 8x57mm with a 180gn cast bullet, and very quiet. The same can be done in .303, .30-06, etc.
I have subsonic loads in .38 Special and .44 Magnum levers but they lack the accuracy of jacketed bullets.
Very interesting, I bin thinking about a 358 Winchester project, but 8x57 is very similar and a old milsurp isn’t a bad idea. 180 gn 8 mm lumps of lead are a interesting load
mickb wrote:You can get down to 2.5 grains in 38 special with 158 grain bullets and 4-5 in the 44 rem for 200-220grains and these will still kill, 800-900fps loads.
The other advantage of the pistol calibres comes into play with their bigger bullet diametre.
A subsonic 38 special cast bullet while no powerhouse is still a bonafide mankiller( or medium sized hog!). Its as low as I personally go for bodyshots. A 6.5 will be cutting holes not much bigger than 22LR target ammo.
bigrich wrote:bladeracer wrote:Personally I wouldn't use a lever-rifle. Subsonic bullets work very well, but as you are stuck with such velocity, accuracy becomes more important. I have a good accurate subsonic load in 8x57mm with a 180gn cast bullet, and very quiet. The same can be done in .303, .30-06, etc.
I have subsonic loads in .38 Special and .44 Magnum levers but they lack the accuracy of jacketed bullets.
Very interesting, I bin thinking about a 358 Winchester project, but 8x57 is very similar and a old milsurp isn’t a bad idea. 180 gn 8 mm lumps of lead are a interesting load
in2anity wrote:how about a 300blk like the ruger ranch? or the new howa mini 300blk? 1:7 handles up to 220gr.
bladeracer wrote:mickb wrote:Y
I've been down to 2.2gn with the 200gn jacketed but they were running out of steam halfway down the bore, 3.0gn is right on the limit as I still had one stop at the muzzle. I wouldn't go below 3.5gn behind a jacketed 200gn bullet in a 24" tube.
For subsonic hunting loads, because I'm governing the velocity to around 1080fps, I like to go as heavy as possible in soft lead to maximise the energy. My Uberti helps with its 16"-twist barrel, but most .38-cal lever-rifles seem to be much more relaxed and struggle to run even 180gn bullets. I wouldn't use the subsonic 6.5x55mm load for anything bigger than foxes as it's basically an FMJ at that speed. A 170gn soft cast bullet would be a much better choice for hunting in the 6.5x55mm.
mickb wrote:in2anity wrote:how about a 300blk like the ruger ranch? or the new howa mini 300blk? 1:7 handles up to 220gr.
Certainly doable and fun. For what I am after, 300blk needs heavier charges and is a smaller calibre than most pistol calibres. Also the pistol calibres generally have bullets that expand at very low pistol velocities, aka getting a .45 up to 70cal mushroom at 875fps and decent 12-14" penetration. With rifles or solid cast loaded down you are usually left with bullet diametre holes, and while a 30cal will kill( a 22 LR will probably kill after all), 357 is my minimum for non- expansion.
A lot of the US hunters who shoot a lot more stuff than us with pistols( since they can hunt with them directly) generally concur. 38 for small/medium, and 40+ for medium/large. A lot of it is armchair BS, but hey thats what we post for right
in2anity wrote:
A quick google search will reveal 30cal jacketed pills actually designed for subsonic expansion for example https://projectilewarehouse.com.au/prod ... 2154239619. In reality they will perform just as well on game as any medium-weight, slow moving lead projectile, with the added benefit of a higher bc (and obviously inherently better accuracy spitting from an acceptably bedded bolt gun). And in my personal experience hard lead projectiles punch holes instead of stopping.
Don't let me talk you out of your build however - I'm a huge lever fan (and always will be) - I'm just playing devil's advocate. You could most definitely achieve your goals out of a lever, just in a less efficient manner (the way i see it). In any case, new projects are fun
With respect to powder economy, the powder cavity of a 300blk seems about on par with the 357 - I don't understand your statement "300blk needs heavier charges". Just tip in full case of TB and be done with it. TB is cheap. Basically, any straight-wall with a larger powder cavity than these will eat more powder will it not?
in2anity wrote:What's the auditory difference between ~1100fps and ~800fps? Is it a logarithmic or more linear decrease? Is there any actual data out there about this subject?
mickb wrote:Wanted to have a chop at a ruger 77/357 but the accuracy reports seemed more hit and miss than lever actions.
mickb wrote:Bladeracer how do you find accuracy loading the lighter charges in the guns. Do you find major velocity variations, stringing, weird groups or other problems due to powder positioning in the cases? I had been meaning to ask some 38 and 40+ cal pistol target guys more about this side of things as they are shooting them the most, but had not had the chance.
in2anity wrote:What's the auditory difference between ~1100fps and ~800fps? Is it a logarithmic or more linear decrease? Is there any actual data out there about this subject?
mickb wrote:I'd have to google it in2anity, not sure of the figures. Its quite noticeable to me. The lightest loads of 38 which still exit barrels are burning less powder than a 22LR stinger for example, and without that supersonic crack (pulling stingers apart they average about 2.5 grains of an unknown powder).
bladeracer wrote:in2anity wrote: I want to play with loading subsonic shotgun loads one day, a subsonic 450gn+ load should be getting significantly louder than a 40gn bullet at the same velocity, based on my experience, but would it approach the level of a sonic crack?
mickb wrote:Now that would be an interesting experiment mate. I have seen some sources on the Brits with suppressed shotguns.