Trying to identify a rear sight

[bladeracer]

A neighbour has found a rear sight (he shot smallbore competition for several decades) that he doesn't recognise as something he used himself.

To me, it appears military, but scaled down - my guess is a .22 rimfire training rifle perhaps.
It doesn't appear to have any means of attachment so I'm guessing it's designed to be soldered in place.

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Barrel diameter is about .650", which again points to a .22" bore.
I was thinking maybe an aftermarket "military-style" sight, except that it is serial numbered with "1232".

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Graduations are not notched or "clicks", just friction, so recoil is negligible.
Measuring the graduations gives me the following:
At the "50" setting the bottom of the notch is .298" above the barrel diameter
The "100" setting is plus .089".
The "200" is plus .171".
The "300" is plus .288".
The "400" is plus .470".
The 500" is plus .709".
The top setting (no distance marking but looks to be in line with "600" based on the scale) is plus 1.007".
It also has a windage mark .090" either side of the centre of the notch.

A sight radius of 500mm would make the sight settings roughly 15.5MoA, 30MoA, 50.5MoA, 82MoA, 124MoA, and 190MoA, and the windage marks 15.5 minutes.
This is pretty close to .22LR trajectory out to 600yds, if the 500mm sight radius is a good guess.

Does it look vaguely familiar to anybody?

[Blr243]

Sliding design makes me think military too but all the sliding scale types I have seen on smle s have numbers going up to much greater ranges

[No1_49er]

.310 Martini Cadet. ?

[bladeracer]

.310 Martini Cadet. ?

I did consider it, but the thin barrel put me off. I'll have to check the trajectory of the .310 tomorrow and see if it fits.

[bladeracer]

Just checked Numrich and I think it is indeed a Cadet sight, although not identical to what they show.
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/1103730

[bladeracer]

Thanks for the tip, I've found one.
https://www.joesalter.com/category/prod ... item-37060
Graduations are different though so I think it's for a .22LR version of the Cadet.

[No1_49er]

That might be a 297/230 then?
CF rifle with almost same ballistics as 22 long.

[bladeracer]

That might be a 297/230 then?
CF rifle with almost same ballistics as 22 long.

Was that a common enough chambering in the Cadet that somebody would've produced sights specific to it? If it flies similarly to .22LR wouldn't they use the same sights?
From what I read, the Cadet wasn't chambered in .22 rimfire until well into the Long-Rifle era, so I doubt any would've been chambered in .22 Long or Short, at least not commercially.

[bladeracer]

I don't have BC numbers for the original factory .310 Cadet load, but a 120gn cast RN at 1300fps doesn't really come close to these graduations at all. I don't think it's a .310 Cadet sight.

I don't know exactly when they started barreling the Cadet for .22LR (post-1945 perhaps?), but looking at .22LR ammo from around that era, the bullet designs and velocities are not dissimilar to modern .22LR. A 40gn .223" cast bullet at about the 1000fps mark fairly closely follows the trajectory of the sight in yard distances, except for the 15.5-minutes at 100yds, but perhaps they trained with a six-o'clock hold at that distance on an eight-inch bull?

Some cool information:
https://cartridgecollectors.org/ammunition-catalogs/Peters

[No1_49er]

I think you are misunderstanding the history of small-bore trainers.
The 297/230 pre-dates the 310 Cadet. You'll be looking for a Francotte patent Martini.
The ballistics of the original cartridge (a CF, reloadable case) practically duplicate the 22LR when loaded with a 37gn lead projectile and (original) 5.5gn black powder. There is some data for reloading with current smokeless powder.
Want data - PM me.

[bladeracer]

I think you are misunderstanding the history of small-bore trainers.
The 297/230 pre-dates the 310 Cadet. You'll be looking for a Francotte patent Martini.
The ballistics of the original cartridge (a CF, reloadable case) practically duplicate the 22LR when loaded with a 37gn lead projectile and (original) 5.5gn black powder. There is some data for reloading with current smokeless powder.
Want data - PM me.

I haven't studied the history to any great degree, I'm just trying to identify the sight so it could perhaps be of use to somebody rather than just continue to take up shelf space for a few more decades

Are you telling me this sight is from an early Cadet in .297/230 Morris and not a later .22LR? I found a video on Youtube of a .22LR No.8 Cadet that has this style of sight. Would they have used the early .297/230 sight on the .22LR conversions rather than graduate a new sight for the .22?

I'm starting to think it might be nice to put it on an old Lithgow Model 12 myself

[No1_49er]

I think my original post was that it "might" be from a 297/230.
I'm not aware of any cadets that were produced in 22LR although there were many Martinis produced later on that were small-bore target rifles, not specifically "trainers", and not with barrel mounted rear sights.
The 297/230 is earlier than the 310 but with similar ballistics to 22LR.
If you saw an Enfield No 8 with the type of sight you are trying to identify, it wasn't the real deal. A No 8 had a conventional ladder sight fitted to the rear of the action, much like a No 4, but ranged only to 800yd. The No 8s were definitely a military trainer, not produced in large numbers, looking something like the later Enfield Enforcer.

[bladeracer]

I think my original post was that it "might" be from a 297/230.
I'm not aware of any cadets that were produced in 22LR although there were many Martinis produced later on that were small-bore target rifles, not specifically "trainers", and not with barrel mounted rear sights.
The 297/230 is earlier than the 310 but with similar ballistics to 22LR.
If you saw an Enfield No 8 with the type of sight you are trying to identify, it wasn't the real deal. A No 8 had a conventional ladder sight fitted to the rear of the action, much like a No 4, but ranged only to 800yd. The No 8s were definitely a military trainer, not produced in large numbers, looking something like the later Enfield Enforcer.

Not an Enfield, a Martini.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QCIoQ34RoM4

[marksman]

is this it
https://www.buyusedguns.com.au/martini- ... 15768.html

[bladeracer]

is this it
https://www.buyusedguns.com.au/martini- ... 15768.html

It's the same sight but with different graduations.

[bladeracer]

I found there are four .22LR Cadets on auction in South Africa, a No.13, two No.15's and an unstated one.
One of them has this sight still.
Also a Greener .22LR that appears to have the same sight.

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[4godsako]

Definitely not a BSA 310 martini cadet rear sight......maybe a Greener Martini cadet ? ? ?
Poss a big momma martini...?
Good luck.....

[4godsako]

Maybe due to it's rough looking construction it could be a Khyber Pass martini

[4godsako]

And the digits 34 and 5 may indicate 300 yards 400 yards 500 yards which would not be on a little cadet

[bladeracer]

And the digits 34 and 5 may indicate 300 yards 400 yards 500 yards which would not be on a little cadet

What are the graduations on the .22LR Cadet then?

[LawrenceA]

Has anyone considered the 297-230?