Cratering Primers - Used HOWA 1500

[Stix]

Grrr....didnt ask for them...
Not sure ill get there again before the weekend now...
See how i go tomorrpw.

[sungazer]

I would load up 10 of each and test them. I dont think you will have any problems with the CCI but the Federal is nearly half the price.

I meant that if the Federals work it would be the obvious choice being nearly half the price. doest matter which one you test first other than if you have a total blowout again. That is not good for the nerves I am sure also not great for the firing pin and bolt.

[grumpy308]

Quite some time back there were a couple of articles on Accurate Shooter regarding primer cratering and pressure relationships / rifle issues. Thickness of primer cups were listed . CCI 450 and BR4, Rem 7 1/2 and one of the Federals from memory had .025 cups vs .020 for the rest. Perhaps do a search to locate the articles and have a read. I'm sure the 7 1/2 was brought out specifically to resolve the cratering issue in the early days of the 17 Rem and was the only one with a thicker cup at the time.Regards Malcolm.

[Apollo]

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

https://www.accurateshooter.com/technic ... -analysis/

[Stix]

Thanks Grumpy...

And Apollo for putting those...or should i say that, article up...

Sheesh...have i got some test shoot'n to do...

[Oldbloke]

Thanks Strikey...
To say im "concerned"--well i dont really know what i am really...lol...

It doesnt happen with any other rifle i have, even hot loads ive tried in my other 204--no cratering at all...however there dont seem to be any other signs these are hot other than this cratering.

I got a box each of both the CCI BR4's, & a box of Federal Gold primers today--someone at the shop said those Federal Gold are also a harder cup & worth a try.
So, unless someone here can tell me different &/or share their experience with these Fed Gold primers, i thought id repeat the same test this weekend with the Fed Gold Primers & if no cratering just buy 100 of them...

Those CCI primers sure are expensive...bloody hell...in comparison to the Federalones theyre some 30-40% more expensive--thats the equivalent of getting a free cheap mixer bottle of Scotch thrown in with the Federals... ...(& cash is very non-existant for me at the moment)...

That is the point. The variable is the rifle. Primers do vary but they all should be ok to use within normal pressures.

[marksman]

sorry for not answering sooner Stix
been a bit busy, l recon you have been given good advice already about the primers, although l would not be too worried about the cratering on your cases
you are not getting blanking or other problems, only a bit of cratering, blanking or pierced primers can be dangerous to you and your firearm

ps, you are spot on Oldbloke

[Stix]

Thanks marksman.

And thanks OB...
Yes while its a new rifle, its not the only variable...
Im using a powder ive not used before...
And i was after more specific info as to the cause & potential concerns of the cratering, given ive not experienced it this bad before unless loads are getting hot...but as i said--many of these dont appear hot for the rifle..
So im not really sure what you're suggesting...not try other primers...
Back loads off to moderste 223 velocities...?

[Apollo]

Stix,

Wish you had started your own topic as it's a bit hard to follow here as there are two different things being addressed. A .223R Howa and your .204R Sako.

Okay, a few points on yours.

Going back to your Light Primer Strike. I had that problem with a new Sako 85 .223R where it was near every second primer that didn't fire due to a light strike. So after a bit of investigation led to checking out the Bolt. I pulled the bolt down and found it had a large amount of grease in it and around the firing pin so, cleaned all the grease out and off the firing pin assembly, lightly oiled and put back together. Fixed and never another light primer strike. May or may not be your solution but have you pulled the bolt apart..??

Your low looking primers. Have you checked the depth of those primer pockets. Should be about 0.122" after you have reamed them.

Mate of mine has a .204R CZ527 and initially started using Federal Primers, he had a few pierced primers with initial test loads and stopped using them. Pulled all the loads and primers. From memory I think they were Federal 205M which I still think are soft primers even though a touch thicker than their standard SR 200. The 205M being "Match" not magnum as some think.

Since the .204R is classed as a "High Pressure Case" I would never use any primer of standard Small Rifle type. The only primers I have considered using as now does my mate are CCI 450, Remington 7 1/2 and CCI BR4 in that order price wise. Generally a lot consider the CCI 450 and BR4 as being the same except the BR4 is supposed to be batch sorted to higher specification for Match Grade. A lot of testing between the two shows very little difference in many uses except the price of the BR4 and perhaps more consistent for quality and performance with precision target calibres and chambers.

My suggestion to you would be try the CCI 450 and Remington 7 1/2 and see how they go in that order. If you only use a few and change, well primers aren't expensive so just put them aside if you don't use any more and move on. Use them in something like a .223R or give them to someone that does.

In summary, make sure the internals of the bolt are clean then try a harder primer and see what happens. Then make a decision and do your load testing.

As I have mentioned to you, my Sako 85 .204R Varmint does not like 40gr Bullets (only tested a couple of different makes) but shines with 39gr Sierra Blitz Kings, also with lighter bullets. The powders I have used are Reloader 10X then ADI Benchmark 2 but have a couple of others I was going to try but never got around to testing.

BTW.. I have had a look at the 100 cases I had been using and not one shows any sign what so ever of a cratered primer. I even found some Federal 205M's that I had used until the mate had his problems but mine show no sign of a crater type strike. Might have been lighter loads.

[Stix]

It was mentioned to me that magnum primers would be too much for a 204...

But ive no idea...


Havnt read everything youve written yet apollo...ill read it at lunch

[marksman]

try different primers Stix but lmho l would not be worried too much about a little bit of cratering,
obviously you dont want it and the harder cups of the primers Apollo is suggesting would probably stop the cratering,
you do not have over pressure so l would not back off loads

that being said lets talk about seating primers, the proper way to seat a primer is by feel, my version of that is to feel them bottom, and then apply a moderate amount of preload, I believe all of the manufacturers recommend seating until the anvils touch the bottom of the pocket, primer pockets are swagged into the case head not machined to a precise dimension. apparently the firing pin has enough force to smash the cup into an unseated anvil with enough force to set it off most of the time cups are made to different thicknesses they are not all the same, If the anvil legs are touching the bottom of the pocket no energy is lost pushing the cup or anvil forward, seating a primer a bit under should not cause problems
the firing pin should protrude about .050" so as Apollo said it may be beneficial to pull your bolt apart and clean it

[Apollo]

This Topic started off with the problems of cratering primers in a Used Howa 1500. Those pictured primers I have never seen so bad in all my decades or reloading for any rifle. There is something really wrong and needs to be sorted.

BUT.... Stix's issue has taken over this topic and I would say to Stix.... Start your own Topic and transfer some of the information, questions and answers posted here or I'll start a Topic for you and any further comment/s I'll post there.

If I had a Howa 1500 with problems and had someone else come in with virtually a total different problem I'd have the s**ts well and truely.

Marksman, I think you are thinking around the same lines as I am with Stix's problem yet alone when he gets into load testing with further questions.

[SCJ429]

Stix

As I have mentioned to you, my Sako 85 .204R Varmint does not like 40gr Bullets (only tested a couple of different makes) but shines with 39gr Sierra Blitz Kings, also with lighter bullets. The powders I have used are Reloader 10X then ADI Benchmark 2 but have a couple of others I was going to try but never got around to testing.

I have also achieved excellent results with 39 grain Sierra BK but use different powder. Sako 204s do seem to do well with them.

[Stix]

Ive been avoiding buying them because of price...i mean a teeny weeny 39gr bullet that costs 50 cents each just urrks me...

But i tried the 40 Vmax again yest & no luck again--but my tikka 204 loves them...ah well...

Fir what its worth, i tried some Fed gold match primers yesterday too, & still got cratering, however slightly bigger groups...may have been wind...

but Anyway, i have a load to finish shooting the rest of the brass off to form them now...so ill go back to the fed 205's for that task as that bullet gets 3 into a rabbits eye at 100...

Some folk say the Fed gold have harder cups, & others say they dont..after still getting cratering i dont know.

[SCJ429]

The cost of the tiny 39 grain twenty cal is the same as a 168 grain ELDM thirty cal. I cannot work it out either. I was going to get some 39 grain TNT and see what they are like. Still not cheap at 30c when the 55 grain 224 TNT is 14.9c each.

[Stix]

Yea scj, i konw right...!!I shouldve got some of those speers when blade mentioned the special but didnt have the coin...

But im thinking of just using mr plastic fantastic & getting both the Sierra's & Speers....then hopefully they shoot tremendously & the pain of coming up with the money a month later wont be as bad...

[in2anity]

I'm following this up, because my smith came up with a creative solution to a multi-faceted problem. And there are plenty of HOWA 1500 owners out there, some of which are probably facing the same problem. Apologies in advance for incorrect nomenclature; I am not a machinist.

As mentioned, in the HOWA 1500 the firing pin hole is a standard 0.075" for both large and small. Combine that with a worn firing pin + hot loads, and you'll start to see cratering, and possibly blanking (if they are hot). The best course of action is to reduce the firing pin, and hole to approx 0.060" (for small rifle).

We discovered another drawback with the HOWA 1500 SA, and that is the bolt face is only 2.5mm thick (at the thinnest section). This is significantly thinner than say a Remington bolt face, which is more like 10mm. This made my smith uncomfortable taking the regular press-fit, bushing approach. He was worried about compromising the strength of the bolt face, and rightly so. This is the one surface you DO NOT want at all weaken, for obvious reasons. Taking a counterbored, threaded bushing screw was also not safe, along the same lines of strength compromise.

The suggestion was made to instead fill the existing hole with weld, then drill that out at the reduced diameter. Traditional welding approaches seemed dangerous as the bolt face's heat hardening may be compromised. Enter stage laser-welding. A laser weld is superior in many ways, the main being (in this context) it does not heat affect adjacent areas. So that's exactly what he achieved:

Laser weld filled the hole

IMG_2291.JPG (390.12 KiB) Viewed 6516 times

Drill and face with carbide tooling (high-speed tooling too soft)

IMG_2293.JPG (534.65 KiB) Viewed 6516 times

Ground and rounded firing pin

IMG_2298.JPG (427.4 KiB) Viewed 6516 times

Superb final fit at 0.060"

IMG_2297.JPG (435.02 KiB) Viewed 6516 times

Here is the final outcome, no more cratering:

Final outcome; factory loads no longer cratering.

IMG_2302.JPG (488.1 KiB) Viewed 6516 times

(cheap/plentiful) CCI400s here I come!! (I already have a safe full of them! !)

Cheers,
In2.

[TassieTiger]

I know nothing about bolts but 2.5mm depth of metal for a recoil face doesn’t seem like neatly enough ?

[in2anity]

I know nothing about bolts but 2.5mm depth of metal for a recoil face doesn’t seem like neatly enough ?

No it doesn't does it TT. We also compared it to another HOWA bolt (in 308) and it was the same, by all accounts. But I guess at least it's not the entire bolt face (just the area closest to the firing pin hole). My smith was perplexed by how some smiths advertised the bushing method as a a standard service for HOWA rifles. He thinks it's either BS, or frankly a bit reckless.

[pomemax]

Do you have a head space gauge you may find the gunsmith cut it to tight
I have one like that sometimes its so tight on the round bolt is hard to close.
what I am getting at HOW good is your gunsmith , when he fitted the new barrel it looks like the chamber may be to close to the pin
try priming a case no powder or pill load and fire you may see a deformed primer
because your load sounds ok

[in2anity]

Do you have a head space gauge you may find the gunsmith cut it to tight
I have one like that sometimes its so tight on the round bolt is hard to close.
what I am getting at HOW good is your gunsmith , when he fitted the new barrel it looks like the chamber may be to close to the pin
try priming a case no powder or pill load and fire you may see a deformed primer
because your load sounds ok

Yes it's headspaced tight (it's a target rifle), but I haven't had any issues chambering, except for after multiple neck-sized reloads, they start to get a little tight, at which point I just shoulder bump using the Redding bump die. I'm not exactly sure what your point is? Do you still think there is some kind of problem? (because it's running like a champ now) genuine question pomemax - I'm not being sensitive / assertive - perhaps you can see something?

[marksman]

l like his work in2anity l really like it

who is he and how much

[LawrenceA]

The problem is pressure not headspace.
I believe you will find any reloading manual suggests you do not start with MAX loads. Your gun is no different.
Have you checked case length to see how much case stretch you are getting?
Are you checking a bright ring just above the web? If so you are about to get head separation.
As mentioned by many use a primer with a thicker cup this will allow that part to operate at a higher pressure.
It is possible but unlikely that the firing pin is too skinny and again bushing the bolt face will allow this part of the equation to handle higher pressure and is generally needed when converting older guns (like 1892's and Martini's) to modern calibers.

Some of these if not all are mentioned above but other things that may increase pressure are:
A tight neck (wont expand to release the bullet);
Thick Brass (lowers case capacity);
tight bore (excellent for accuracy but higher pressure);
rough bore (needs to wear in a little);
Faster powder (earlier and often higher peak pressure grain for grain);
Hot weather can make a hot load dangerous.

Seriously drop back at least 10% and work out an accurate load, unless you are specifically looking at extreme range where velocity rules.
I have never shot a thing where an extra 200 fps second would make a difference.
My Howa 223 uses whatever I feed it no worries

[in2anity]

<sigh> LaweranceA, don't take this the wrong way, but we've been over this already - I suggest having a read of the entire thread, particularly the start before it was derailed. With all due respect, you are just regurgitating what's already been said. This a follow-up post detailing exactly how the problem was ultimately solved, nothing more. I did it to help others.

I was thread OP back in Dec 19. YES hotter loads makes matters worse. YES hard primers help with the problem. YES backing off hot loads help with the problem. YES I already load mild, out to 400m for Non-Service Telo matches, and it shoots Vs all day long (if I'm doing my part). It's my goto rifle for those specific events, and believe me, I run it as mild as I can get away with, which is close to MIN listed (I run all my guns like that). YES the firing pin was too loose for the firing pin hole. YES the standard HOWA firing pin hole is a little too big for small-rifle primers. It was 0.075", as all HOWAs are, and more critically the firing pin on my particular rifle was very worn from 12 years of busting heads.

The firing pin and pin hole were downsized to stop the cratering and blanking, which has been achieved by a laser weld (instead of the conventional bushing approach) because howa bolt faces are thin. That is all.

[LawrenceA]

Sorry mate
Yes I should have.
Please accept my apology

[in2anity]

Sorry mate
Yes I should have.
Please accept my apology

Allg mate FWIW I wasn’t trying to flame you - really I’m not that elitist forum guy. I appreciate any legit advice and what you say is true and good advice