HOWA 1500 .308 VT ?

[Die Judicii]

Hi guys, am looking at HOWAS again,,,,,,,,,
I see listed as a model (as per the heading)

I haven't found any direct reference, but am presuming the "VT" stands for Varmint.

Is this correct, or does it stand for something else ?

[deye243]

If like ruger it will mean varmint target

[Die Judicii]

If like ruger it will mean varmint target

Aha, I thought as much,,,,, thanks Bloke.

[Ziege]

Don't get a 308 tho, 6.5x55 or 7mm08 or a 270 or 25-06 or something just not a 308 lol

[deye243]

Don't get a 308 tho, 6.5x55 or 7mm08 or a 270 or 25-06 or something just not a 308 lol

Why

[Ziege]

Haha nah I just think the performance of a 308 Compared to other rounds is woeful, and it is. Sure blah blah blah it will kill this blah blah and it can do that blah blah... But it's just not as good as the others even when it tries it's little hardest. If it did people wouldn't be necking down the cases to escape using it

[in2anity]

Haha nah I just think the performance of a 308 Compared to other rounds is woeful

Ok, because I'm bored, I'll bite.

There is nothing wrong with the 308, across all disciplines. "Woeful" is very strong word. I don't here many Palma shooters calling the 308 "Woeful".

Instead of focusing on the intricacies of (similar) calibers, I feel one should be pouring their focus on rifle selection instead of caliber. The realisation of accuracy overwhelmingly comes from the shooter, gun and ammo-quality (before such calibre nuances). If you get a heavy barrel on a quality action and bed, there are lots of different calibers that will get you out to 1000m with similar results. Everybody gets so hung up on the "trendy" calibre when they should really be thinking about and sourcing the exact rifle + barrel contour for their specific needs. Accuracy overwhelmingly comes from the barrel/action/bed, less so the caliber. I stress the word less here - of course intrinsic calibre properties are a factor.

Getting back to 308, here's some positives with the venerable 308. Brass is common, and therefore can be cheap. 308 can usually shoot cheap milsurp 7.62 ammo. 308 projectilces are common, and therefore can be cheap. 30 cal projectile choice is currently much wider than say 6.5cm. Light 30 cal pills can be cheaper than many of the more "specialised" calibers. Check out the range of light Speer bullets in 30cal. Throat erosion occurs faster with a faster pill. 308 has has about 36% more frontal surface area than the 6.5cm; all other things being equal, a bigger bullet will make a bigger hole, cause more tissue damage, and result in more blood loss.

Be careful with generalisations my friend. Sure if money is not a concern, and you want to be able to brag to your friends that you have the latest, technically most "efficient" caliber gun, go ahead and buy the 6.5cm. And yes it will shoot very well. But the 308 has been kicking arse for a very long time, in a staggering amount of different applications.

[Rwd22]

'VT' could possibly stand for Varmint Threaded? The howa barreled action I bought recently stated 'HB' Heavy Barrel on the box rather than a mention of Varmint.

[solarpak]

From what i know, howa now have a few different barrel profiles - the ultralight #1 contour, standard #2 contour, semi-barrel #3/4 contour and the #6 contour varmint.

I know that in the #6 contour 308 chambering they do offer a 20 inch and 24 inch barrel - some may be fluted - some not.

Nothing wrong with the 308 - on the world of the creed moor and PRC cartridges the old bugger can still mix it and is still one of the premier hunting cartridges the world over.

C.

[Ziege]

Ok, because I'm bored, I'll bite.

There is nothing wrong with the 308, across all disciplines. "Woeful" is very strong word. I don't here many Palma shooters calling the 308 "Woeful".

Instead of focusing on the intricacies of (similar) calibers, I feel one should be pouring their focus on rifle selection instead of caliber. The realisation of accuracy overwhelmingly comes from the shooter, gun and ammo-quality (before such calibre nuances). If you get a heavy barrel on a quality action and bed, there are lots of different calibers that will get you out to 1000m with similar results. Everybody gets so hung up on the "trendy" calibre when they should really be thinking about and sourcing the exact rifle + barrel contour for their specific needs. Accuracy overwhelmingly comes from the barrel/action/bed, less so the caliber. I stress the word less here - of course intrinsic calibre properties are a factor.

Getting back to 308, here's some positives with the venerable 308. Brass is common, and therefore can be cheap. 308 can usually shoot cheap milsurp 7.62 ammo. 308 projectilces are common, and therefore can be cheap. 30 cal projectile choice is currently much wider than say 6.5cm. Light 30 cal pills can be cheaper than many of the more "specialised" calibers. Check out the range of light Speer bullets in 30cal. Throat erosion occurs faster with a faster pill. 308 has has about 36% more frontal surface area than the 6.5cm; all other things being equal, a bigger bullet will make a bigger hole, cause more tissue damage, and result in more blood loss.

Be careful with generalisations my friend. Sure if money is not a concern, and you want to be able to brag to your friends that you have the latest, technically most "efficient" caliber gun, go ahead and buy the 6.5cm. And yes it will shoot very well. But the 308 has been kicking arse for a very long time, in a staggering amount of different applications.

The light pills destabilize and are inaccurate after a short distance, can't be helped width vs length. The heavy pills are slowwwwww... My main beefs with it.

[in2anity]

The light pills destabilize and are inaccurate after a short distance, can't be helped width vs length. The heavy pills are slowwwwww... My main beefs with it.

Ok, define "short distance" then. Also, define "slowwwww" and why it's in practice that much harder than a faster cartridge?

[Ziege]

Well personally all I own that goes slower than 3100fps is 12G and 22LR


So with that said I'm not into loopty loo rounds that require holdover.

If I wanna guess holdover I will use a bow.

Short distance 250m-350m

Personal preference.

I've heard people say they will be able to use military ammo in a shtf situation, but to me they're stupid, if you're able to knock over an ammo cache in that scenario it would mean you're capable of getting your hands on an automatic firearm to utilise it also.

So yeah all in all I'm not a fan, people use it for target sure, because there is a category for it where it's required to be used. When it comes to target there are tonnes of better options.

Coin, eh.... Reloading is pretty cheap across the board and a lot of the highest BC 30cal rounds are slow in a 308... And can't deny the fact that the longer a bullet takes to get to the target the greater the effect of wind/gravity on the round, that's common sense

[in2anity]

Well personally all I own that goes slower than 3100fps is 12G and 22LR

It's usually best to only argue points you've had personal experience with. Provided your gun is up to it, a 130gr pill driven hard groups just fine out to 400m, probably beyond (I've never tried further with that pill). At such distances there's no reason it can't stand next to a "fancy" pill. Granted this is not a benchrest comparison, but for field positional (sling) competition shooting, it's more than accurate enough to shoot a perfect score (which I might add is very very difficult). And at 400m they buck the wind just fine - once you get your zero, they'll keep puttin em in there, don't you worry about.

The biggest issue with the 308 mostly has nothing to do with what your calling the "holdover" - it's the recoil and the subsequent induced fatigue.

And the cheap milsurp ammo I'm talking about is the throw away steel case stuff. Cheap to plink with that's all, nothing to do with so called 'SHTF' or whatever you want to call it.

For the record, I'm not arguing the cartridges you listed as superior aren't better - of course they are. It's just the 308 is very close to just as capable, to the point where you might struggle to differentiate (in like-for-like guns, in the real world).

[deye243]

I suggest you wait till you grow up before you put your foot in your mouth and come back then ......

And around here short range is 0 to 600 so yes even your mid speed chamberings you like so much will need a fair bit of hold over ...... haha

Cheers

[Blr243]

Dj. does not reload. Maybe the price of ammo is part of the reason for the 308 .... ppu factory ammo is only a dollar a shot ......feral pigs don’t walk away from it

[SCJ429]

I have never owned a 308, so perhaps my comments are of no value. I have shot a few and done extensive load development on it. I have to agree with Zieggy, I find the case vanilla and does not do anything for me. Yes it does the job and is extensively used in F Class standard where it has a monopoly. It has an advantage that that it has a very large following in the US and it was used by the military there. I don't find this a good reason to own one but many people do. Are there disadvantage in using a 308 for hunting in Australia, no none that I can think of.

In competition it has its limitations and given a choice, most shooters who want to do well would choose another case.

[in2anity]

In competition it has its limitations and given a choice, most shooters who want to do well would choose another case.

Well that really depends on the type of comp, doesn't it I get it's far from the best for Benchrest or F-Class, but they are both niche.

Anyway, let's not let this descend into some sort of "cartridge x is betters than cartridge y" debate, because nobody is arguing that the 308 is somehow superior. All I'm saying is that for a lot applications, the 308 is capable, including lots of target disciplines. It's very very far from "woeful" like someone labeled it, and it could be a good choice for OP looking to buy a Howa.

[SCJ429]

SCJ42
In competition it has its limitations and given a choice, most shooters who want to do well would choose another case.[

Well that really depends on the type of comp, doesn't it I get it's far from the best for Benchrest or F-Class, but they are both niche.

I am not sure of any competition where the 308 is the case of choice. The popularity of the case is based on it being used by the US military and the fact that it is quite capable and does nothing badly. If you love it, then get one and it will serve you well.

[in2anity]

I am not sure of any competition where the 308 is the case of choice. The popularity of the case is based on it being used by the US military and the fact that it is quite capable and does nothing badly. If you love it, then get one and it will serve you well.

Never have I said it was "case of choice" SCJ429, rather just that it's more than capable, i.e. you can still win with it. And people often do. Shooters regularly take out the gold in both Service and Non-Service with 308s. 308s are still used for High Power Metallic Silhoutte (mostly not, but there are still a few around). Many shooters in the field positional clubs in Sydney use 308s - and win. Put it this way, I can't think of a single centerfire club at ANZAC rifle range that wouldn't have at least some shooters competing with 308s...

That's the whole point I've been pushing; it seems like you are arguing for the sake of it which i find puzzling, then again I suppose this whole lockdown thing is rather boring...

[Die Judicii]

Personal preference

Have you yet stopped to ponder that I need the venerable old .308 for a very specific job ?

And yes, there are other rounds that will perform better/same, but not like I specifically need at the moment, and cost wise and availability also
plays a part in the grand plan of things happening,,, on the main property I have been tasked to eradicate ferals on.

[Die Judicii]

Dj. does not reload. Maybe the price of ammo is part of the reason for the 308 .... ppu factory ammo is only a dollar a shot ......feral pigs don’t walk away from it

Yeah,,,,,,,,,, Thanks for that Russ, at least you got your finger on the pulse Mate.

[SCJ429]

I am not sure about the argument bit, I am responding to you and giving my point of view. This is what you did to the poster from WA. You don't seem to disagree with what I say, and I don't have any problems with what you say.

The poster from WA said that the 308 was no good at punching out heavy pills at a decent speed. This is true, the case capacity is too small to shoot projectiles larger than 200 grains at a decent speed. If you want to do this, choose a bigger case.
You stated that the recoil of the 308 wears you down in competition, this is true and 6mm cases are much friendlier to shoot in this regard.
I often see F class standard shooters bring their rifles to other types of competition to get some practice, it is not easy for those guys to keep up with guys shooting 6mm BR or 6.5x47 Lapua. They are harder to shoot and are at a ballistic disadvantage.

[in2anity]

he also said

"Haha nah I just think the performance of a 308 Compared to other rounds is woeful"

[SCJ429]

But that is his way of saying the 308 is too common and not high performance enough for him. Most people follow the most successful and popular thing, I see that in V8 Supercars where the majority of people support Red Bull Racing or people think Muhammad Ali is the best boxer ever. He sees value in a different case, that is a good thing.

It is good to follow what interests you, the more obscure the better. Compared to my 30BR, the 308 is a powerhouse. No need for 308 lovers to get defensive, it is not everyone's cup of tea and there are already vast amount of owners to support the case.

[in2anity]

But that is his way of saying the 308 is too common and not high performance enough for him. Most people follow the most successful and popular thing, I see that in V8 Supercars where the majority of people support Red Bull Racing or people think Muhammad Ali is the best boxer ever. He sees value in a different case, that is a good thing.

It is good to follow what interests you, the more obscure the better. Compared to my 30BR, the 308 is a powerhouse. No need for 308 lovers to get defensive, it is not everyone's cup of tea and there are already vast amount of owners to support the case.

I totally agree. I'm just defending that the 308 is not "woeful" as stated, and there are other reasons to go 308 (like running cost). That is all.

[sungazer]

Don't get a 308 tho, 6.5x55 or 7mm08 or a 270 or 25-06 or something just not a 308 lol

Really they are what you would call way better than a 308. Cmon if your gonna poo poo something you need to make the difference actually noticeable.

[Lukeynumber2]

Can anyone enlighten me to the twist rate of the vt in .308 26" barrell? Can't find any markings.

[deye243]

After looking at howa rifles I have not seen a Heavy Barrel 308 in anything but a one in ten if it has a Heavy Barrel safe to say it's a 1 in 10 does not matter anyway as a one in 12 will stabilize anything the 308 can push so around 180 grains in a VLD and lower.

If you already have it just measure it very simple process if not get them to do it in the shop

[Lukeynumber2]

Developing a 200 grain smk's load because I got a heap cheap. Great results so far. Just waiting on a longer mag to arrive to play with seating depths. Only played out to 100m so far

[Blr243]

I bought a couple of howa vts. 22250 and 243 .. basically just stiff heavy barreled howas