Concussive forces - brain impact

[TassieTiger]

Can’t recall exactly what I was watching but a dr was interviewing a person after a cat scan of their brain where it was found that they had serious, long term brain trauma - and the questions the dr was asking were around;
Ever been knocked out?
Ever been exposed to prolonged high noise levels?
Ever been subjected to regular concussive force like from large firearms with muzzle brakes?

Is this a real thing ? I’ve heard rumours - windows cracking, detached retinas, etc from large rifles with brakes - any thoughts as to reality on these types of rumours?

[Blr243]

When I was maybe 17 I joined the army reserve temporarily. Only time I did anything with them was the recruit course. I did not like all the yelling , authority , rules push ups orders etc I knew it was not for me ..... especially when I had to advance. Ie run forward and dive in the dirt with my slr ......I stick out the course but I quit straight after it. When we were lined up at the range the shock waves from each other’s rifles were quite apparant. The bloke beside me was crying. It may have been his first time with a firearm. A few years ago I was useing a big jackhammer. It was a fair bit bigger than the biggest one u would see on a building site and not something you could buy at most hardware stores. it vibrated my body so badly that I could not see properly. I could actually feel my eyeballs bouncing around inside my sockets

[Blr243]

Forgive me TT. I’m the king of rambling off topic ......esp when not being able to hunt or work

[rc42]

Funny story with jack hammers, I hired one about 10 years ago to remove a lot of old concrete and walls from our back garden, it was one of the larger electric ones so noise was reasonable but after being shaken and vibrated for about 8 hours my arms and shoulders were burning and I reached the point where I couldn't even hold it upright, I had a headache but most notably my penis was completely numb from all the bouncing up and down.

All fully recovered in a day or so though.

[CAVEMAN]

It all has an effect, with large recoiless rifles the ones that throw bowling pin sized projectiles theres a limit observed on how many you should pop in a day to limit risk.

I dare say even the concussive force of a large caliber rifle, could do some damage. And allot of these things affect people differently. Theres even been a few people in this world brake they're back sneezing.

[wanneroo]

TBI is a real thing. Soldiers often suffer from it. I probably have it from some of the stuff I have done. I have a very cool unique job but it also involved impacts with solid objects so I know a few times I have had my can rattled.

[Blr243]

In Vietnam my father did 3/4 of his year with a mortar platoon .....after dropping the shell down the tube apparently u are supposed to duck and cover your ears. But under pressure once where he was doing multiple rounds he got a bit out of sync and his head was up a bit higher than ideal. He was telling me this once when we were discussing his hearing. And here’s a couple of interesting facts about mortars for those not familiar. They have quite a bloody good range. I think he told me once he had 58 in the air before they started hitting the enemy. ( or maybe it was during a practice session) And another thing even back then the enemy had the technology to work out where the mortars were coming from but it took some time. So the deal was to get as many going as possible as fast as you can, and after a certain period of time quickly pack up and get out of there before the response artillery stats landing on you. One more thing. I’m I remember his description correctly there were infantry sections patrolling solo through the scrub but they were often or always in constant radio connection with a mortar team that was a random distance behind them ...and when the forward infantry section got attacked they would instantly call on the mortars to put a ton of stress on the enemy .... I asked him once “ did you ever get abused by the infantry section for dropping mortars to close to your own ?” He replied quickly , no , never , they loved us ......so it sounds like quite an important back up for a bunch of infantry rifleman ......I’m not interested in any war gore but I’m very interested in the tactics and methods involved in the training instructions of our soldiers to help keep them alive I don’t ask him about it but on the rare occasions he starts to talk about it I’m all ears

[AussieCapitalist]

Yeah that is trigonometry mate. If you know one side of a triangle and the angle you can figure out the other 2 sides. Would suck to do it with out a calculator not to mention under enemy fire.

SOH CAH TOA

[AussieCapitalist]

I often wonder about my grandfather who was a WW2 veteran. My nan said he was nearly deaf when they married when he was about 28 years old back in the 50s. The range is noisy enough for me so imagine how loud being in WW2 would have been. No wonder all the old war vets were blind, deaf etc. Think of all the trauma that pressure from explosions and such would do to the human body. They really were the greatest generation.

[TassieTiger]

Very interesting- thanks for replies.

These rumours re broken windows, detached retinas, etc from Braked larger rifles - true? Exaggerating? False?

FYI - 2 x 50bmg’s on used G today...I imagine they would break a window if fired within a vehicle tray / across fender?

[No1Mk3]

G'day Tassie,
Yes, the Boys Mk2 we fire over the bonnet of a AP5 cracked the windscreen, but from more than 10' away it wouldn't. Being near one without hearing protection would more often than not cause serious damage to the ear drum and potential brain injury. I have reduced hearing from being too close (on GDP of a Type 12) to a 4.5" being fired and my 2nd cousin suffered hearing loss and some brain injury attributed to his service on 105's in Vietnam with the NZ Artillery. but many others don't seem to be as badly affected. My Grandfather served on a 3.7" A/A gun in WW2, and suffered no hearing loss as did most of his mates. I think actual injury is sometimes overstated but the potential for injury not always appreciated which is why I always recommend earmuffs and support the sporting use of suppressors by those who want them, Cheers.
PS: Have been knocked out a few times and my doctor attributes my tinnitus to this

[Blr243]

In an effort to help TT find an answer I googled muzzle blast injury or something like that but I really only saw a medical document that was too complex to understand and very random in its layout ......and when I just read number ones post about hearing loss and suppressors it gave me an idea ...I don’t or rarely use protection in the field because it dulls my senses and my second shot follow up and quick new target acquisition is compromised.....supressors would give me protection and keep my senses at full alert but they are not permitted. ......I think the definition of a surpressor is something fitted or could be fitted to the barrell of a rifle for the purpose of sound reduction ( something like that ) .....then I thought ..... what if a 250 mm long , 75 mm diameter tube were fitted with no baffles and no end cap ....surely this is less nasty for the operators ears , but does not reduce the sound from the point of view of somebody 500 m away ? So maybe that could be considered legal .... and maybe it would be less harsh on the ears. ...... not thought this though properly.....only just thought of it.

[MontyShooter]

The style of the muzzle brake is probably more important than the caliber. Some of those terminator brakes that direct blast back instead of to the sides are brutal.

[trekin]

In an effort to help TT find an answer I googled muzzle blast injury or something like that but I really only saw a medical document that was too complex to understand and very random in its layout ......and when I just read number ones post about hearing loss and suppressors it gave me an idea ...I don’t or rarely use protection in the field because it dulls my senses and my second shot follow up and quick new target acquisition is compromised.....supressors would give me protection and keep my senses at full alert but they are not permitted. ......I think the definition of a surpressor is something fitted or could be fitted to the barrell of a rifle for the purpose of sound reduction ( something like that ) .....then I thought ..... what if a 250 mm long , 75 mm diameter tube were fitted with no baffles and no end cap ....surely this is less nasty for the operators ears , but does not reduce the sound from the point of view of somebody 500 m away ? So maybe that could be considered legal .... and maybe it would be less harsh on the ears. ...... not thought this though properly.....only just thought of it.

Unfortunatly, in QLD, where a 'silencer is define thusly;

"(h) a silencer or other device or contrivance made or used,
or capable of being used or intended to be used, for
reducing the sound caused by discharging a firearm;"

Even these are considered Cat R

sup.jpg (12.08 KiB) Viewed 7439 times

sup2.jpg (6.81 KiB) Viewed 7439 times

sup3.jpg (10.56 KiB) Viewed 7439 times

[trekin]

These are available in Aus
https://muzzlebrakeaustralia.com.au/sho ... -22322-250
And are said to "REDIRECTS SOUND FORWARD TO GREATLY REDUCE THE "AT EAR POINT BLAST" COMPARED TO WITH THE SLEEVE REMOVED."
Not sure of the legallities in QLD, as I'm sure WLB would argue that reducing the "at ear point blast" is reducing the sound caused by discharging a firearm. May be able to counter argue that they reduce/redirect, at the operators end, the pressure wave but not the sound level.

[TassieTiger]

^ I’d like to see / hear one in action to see if claims are true. The sites sales pitch is worded very carefully lol.

[Sergeant Hartman]

As trekin said unfortunately anything that modifies and reduces the noise is restricted.

The issue with muzzle break pointing forward... i recon it would work opposit to a standard muzzle break...ie increase the felt recoil. And increase the noise for everyone except the shooter or people standing behind the shooter.

Actually looked at the thing...i think it will decrease the the noise towards the shooter, definitely increase the felt recoil, And might not effect the accuracy as they will take a slot second to turn around and come towards the muzzle.... and just might be enough for the projectile to exit before they buffet the projectile

[TassieTiger]

I often wonder about my grandfather who was a WW2 veteran. My nan said he was nearly deaf when they married when he was about 28 years old back in the 50s. The range is noisy enough for me so imagine how loud being in WW2 would have been. No wonder all the old war vets were blind, deaf etc. Think of all the trauma that pressure from explosions and such would do to the human body. They really were the greatest generation.

Was watching a doco last night on WW1 /WW2 artillery - FMD.
You could see so much rubble from the muzzle blast of those big guns, Shrapnel rocks flying everywhere the first few shots - just off the charts. Those heroes probably didn’t know better re TBI - but still, most of today’s people wouldn’t be able to stand anywhere near one - let alone operate a 4 man crew, like an oiled machine firing 10 rounds a minute...for hours...with another huge gun only meters away....whilst being shot at...and also looking for their own incoming...in 6ft of mud...etc etc etc.

[AussieCapitalist]

Was watching a doco last night on WW1 /WW2 artillery - FMD.
You could see so much rubble from the muzzle blast of those big guns, Shrapnel rocks flying everywhere the first few shots - just off the charts. Those heroes probably didn’t know better re TBI - but still, most of today’s people wouldn’t be able to stand anywhere near one - let alone operate a 4 man crew, like an oiled machine firing 10 rounds a minute...for hours...with another huge gun only meters away....whilst being shot at...and also looking for their own incoming...in 6ft of mud...etc etc etc.

Thats why they are called the greatest generation mate. We can not even be half as great as they were. Surely they all had tinnitus as well as other types of trauma both mental and physical.. I remember seeing my Great grandfather wig out and attack my grandmother when I was maybe 5 or 6 years old. It was like he would transform into a different person randomly. He was the poster child for the stereotype of abusive, drunk war veteran. These old vets never got any care or anything when the war ended. It was off the boat and back into the workforce and get on with your life.

[Ziege]

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[mickb]

Tas , I think the level of concussive force from firearms would need to be extreme to cause TBI. I read some of these studies and I am in two minds as to whether its anything the level we can fire doing it, even elephant guns with muzzle breaks. You hear some of the old safair hunters slowing down in old age but some of these guys had frontal brain damage from alcohol abuse, to put it plainly. Regards military TBI often they attribute other issues like PTSD, sports injury, workplace injury, even childhood injury to the mix. I havent read all the studies of course.

As to head impact, I used to wrestle competitively, you get thrown on the matt a great deal, whiplash effect, head banging the ground on occasion, never really knocked out though. But over years I wondered if it has an effect. My thoughts are ... probably not. The issue of punchdrunkness is really only prevalent with boxers , kickboxers get it to a lesser degree, only some MMA fall into that category. As to punch drunk boxers and many are. its not to much the their knockout defeats, its the 300-400 spars they have between fights. They clock up far more head impact in the gym, maybe even 100x more. Its well known that boxers that spar too heavily or too often can have shorter brain lifepan. James lights out toney was one example; Great fighter, as he got older he used to do less specific fitness work( road work or skipping) and just develope fitness whilst sparring. Which works fine, boxing is the best boxing fitness, but the wear and tear on the head is extreme. Ali was the same, people think he got punished a lot in his last fights, and he did, but his sparring regime had become crazy in the end.

There are brain damaged people in other sports of course but my thoughts when this happens, its more bad luck, they were in the % that got unlucky and got a brain injury where some other guy may not have, or with degenrative conditions on the rise, it may be part of that issue, not so much, getting a knock that does it.

[Stix]

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Whats that Ziege...?...i didnt hear you....
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[ash_hendo]

I often wonder about my grandfather who was a WW2 veteran. My nan said he was nearly deaf when they married when he was about 28 years old back in the 50s. The range is noisy enough for me so imagine how loud being in WW2 would have been. No wonder all the old war vets were blind, deaf etc. Think of all the trauma that pressure from explosions and such would do to the human body. They really were the greatest generation.

My Grandad said he was on a bren gun once providing some sort of suppressive fire and he couldn't hear for two days after..... From memory they had to change barrels every 2 magazines because of the tropic heat and when you were doing that you were too close to the gun next to you and got full noise, they ran two so the fire never stopped.

[Rippah]

Ever been exposed to prolonged high noise levels?
Ever been subjected to regular concussive force like from large firearms with muzzle brakes?

(Not a doctor)

It makes sense to me. At the end of the day noise is a physical forces, a shock wave, a vibration.

Spike it hard enough, or apply enough of it over time to something (your brain) and there must be an effect.

[Blackened]

That seems like a great idea to me, I must say.

I'd be very interested to see before and after decibel meter readings from this.

[trekin]

That seems like a great idea to me, I must say.

I'd be very interested to see before and after decibel meter readings from this.

A club I was a member on did some tests with these back in '98 or '99, when the 100+ year old Commonwealth range we were using was being shut down because if noise complaints by a newly built age care facility across the road from the main entrance. Tests did show a significant reduction to the sound caused by discharging a firearm, can't for the life of me remember the exact figures, but suffice to say that the muzzle blast from a .308 full bore riffle was barely noticeable 200 meters away behind the fireing line, the distance from infront of the aged care facility to the 900 yard mound. However, WLB pulled the "silencer" bs, and Howard sold the land to property developers and is now a housing estate.

[Ricochet]

I saw a clip on the net somewhere a few years ago. Some guy testing out his new .50 cal beast with a muzzle break. He set it up on the tailgate of his 4x4 fired a shot and the gas directed out the sides of the muzzle smashed his taillight assembly on the side closest the muzzle, from about a foot away.

[marksman]

"TassieTiger wrote:
Ever been exposed to prolonged high noise levels?
Ever been subjected to regular concussive force like from large firearms with muzzle brakes?"

adding from personal experience

for quite a few years l was an RO of a range that could hold 100 shooters, if l did one busy day being an RO it was ok but after 2 days straight the smallest noise was very painful, it usually took up to 3 days to become normal again my wife said it was like a lack of interest eg.. being hungover
there were times l would do 3 days straight.

l was helping a new guy from the military rifle club sight in his 50 cal and made the mistake of standing near his bench that l put well away from everyone else
l was hit by the muzzle blast and nearly fell over putting my back out, l struggled to my car went home and spent 3 weeks mostly in bed

l have also had jobs where once a week doing maintenance in a fertilizer plant a couple of us would have to t-hammer the floor to remove tracks that were made from the bobcats under the machines that made super phosphate, very loud and done at the end of the week, it did take the weekend to get over
the effect was not as bad as being an RO at a busy range for 2 days

an edit: l would like to add that the guy with the 50cal could only get it in Victoria because he became a member of the military rifle club,
after joining he wondered why he had not done it years ago