Issues resizing 308 -> 243

[ash_hendo]

I was resizing some brand new Starline Brass from 308 to 243 and some shoulder/necks collapsed in as per the picture.

Reading online some people say a light load of trail boss can fireform them back to normal with a light projectile or wad.

Anyone ever done this or know if there could be any safety issues?

I was wondering why they collapsed so easily too, I removed the decapper/Expander, about 1 in 5 collapsed with case lube and going nice and slow. Any tips anyone has to avoid this would be appreciated.

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[Blr243]

I can’t help other than remind u that u are not alone. I have probably done two cases , and probably just because I probably found a couple of discarded 308 cases in the field on hunting trips and thought I could turn them into 243 reloads. One was ok the other failed ( crushing ). I think your size ing technique needs to be absolutely spot on

[marksman]

l have found this happening when using a die with an expander that moves
eg.. forster FLD where the expander will push the neck down collapsing it instead of sliding through the neck if the expander starts in the up position
if l lower the expander it does not happen

maybe doing it in steps would be better, bring it down to 26 cal then 24

l have a feeling it would be just simpler to buy some good 243 cases

[Stix]

Ive caved one case in like that...but with a collet die...id seen pics & so i just wanted one

I didnt try blow it out with a load in the gun...i put it on the 'reloading fuk-up' trophy shelf...

Personally i wouldnt try blow it out with a load of powder & a bullet...
I dont know what would happen, but the fact Headspace isnt within the realms of being anywhere near that considered safe is enough to scare me away...
I have no way of knowing what might happen to that brass & bullet as it all jams up in the narrow neck of the chamber--i cant help but think there would be even a little bit of a pressure spike...but ive never done it so wouldnt know.

For me, if anyone tells you its ok, let them fire it with their face next to the action & directly behind the bolt...

Also maybe beware of the thickness of the 308 brass in a 243 neck...if the brass is thick enough to even slightly impede the bullet release in the narrower necked 243 chamber, you could have some pressure issues.

You might be able to check this by measuring a loaded round with both new & already safely used brass, then comparing any difference with a fired case of the proven brass.
If you dont have atleast 2 thou difference (space in the chamber for thicker brass neck to expand), you'll have to turn the necks or deal with inconsistant velocities from random pressure spikes...

So aside from repeating marksmans suggestion of buying the right brass, hats about the best i got...

[bigrich]

i've had good success sizing "up" from 308 to 358win . sizing down is difficult as you are trying to compress the brass . i've done my 358 win in stages, using a 8x57 die to take it up to .323 before stretching it up all the way to 358 as this doesn't stress the brass by doing it in one go . a mate of mine who's into enfeilds has told me a specialist ammo loader here in brisbane resizes 303-25 down in stages, by first sizing down to 303-270 . maybe this might work for you . get a second hand 7-08 full length die and try that first if the dimensions are right

[straightshooter]

I regularly resize Winchester once fired brass to 243 and I have done many hundreds of cases for myself and for friends.
With good lube it can be done in one pass.
If your lube isn't quite up to the task then try sizing the case in incremental stages. First say 1mm of the neck and then relube just the neck. Then a little more and relube the neck. You will soon get the feel for how it has to be done in order not to collapse the shoulder.
Also if you start with a dry die then things will improve as lube spreads through the die but you will also get shoulder dents if there is too much lube.
If that batch of cases just happen to have thicker necks or a little more anneal on the shoulder then they will collapse.
Cases with collapsed shoulders can't be rehabilitated.

[Bill]

ash_hendo what rifle will you be firing these in ?

[SCJ429]

Your cases are stuffed and you can never reform the collapsed shoulder. Throw them away.
For your other cases I would try some better lube, I use Imperial Sizing wax. I push the case in a little and then withdraw it, turn the case and push it up again and keep doing that until the neck starts to size down. It helps to have a large chamfer on the case mouth to prevent it catching on the die.

Remember that the case neck is now thicker and longer, I would neck turn and trim.

Start experimenting with some range scrap, you can pick up discarded 308 brass at the range any day of the week.

[bigrich]

i have a resizing related question , with prefererce to reanealing . would you guys aneal before or after resizing , and why

[ash_hendo]

For me, if anyone tells you its ok, let them fire it with their face next to the action & directly behind the bolt...

Good point, I'm sure many people would retract advice if they are the ones doing it.... In the old brass bin they go.....

[ash_hendo]

I regularly resize Winchester once fired brass to 243 and I have done many hundreds of cases for myself and for friends.
With good lube it can be done in one pass.
If your lube isn't quite up to the task then try sizing the case in incremental stages. First say 1mm of the neck and then relube just the neck. Then a little more and relube the neck. You will soon get the feel for how it has to be done in order not to collapse the shoulder.
Also if you start with a dry die then things will improve as lube spreads through the die but you will also get shoulder dents if there is too much lube.
If that batch of cases just happen to have thicker necks or a little more anneal on the shoulder then they will collapse.
Cases with collapsed shoulders can't be rehabilitated.

I wonder if once-fired is a bit "harder" than brand new as it's been heat-treated

[ash_hendo]

l have a feeling it would be just simpler to buy some good 243 cases

I forgot to mention why I was doing this, these are Palma brass with the small primer pocket, if anyone tells me where I can buy "243 Palma" I'll give up my efforts!

High attrition rate, but I have 20 usable cartridges now which I will test with light loads, resize, trim etc and measure all the criticals...

[ash_hendo]

ash_hendo what rifle will you be firing these in ?

Rowa(Roessler) Titan 6. Barrels are made by Heym in Germany.

[ash_hendo]

i have a resizing related question , with prefererce to reanealing . would you guys aneal before or after resizing , and why

I'm not an expert, new to this myself, but from metalworking knowledge - annealing makes the metal softer if you let it cool slowly, so it is more malleable and can survive being manipulated. So before resizing makes sense to me.

If you cool quickly it makes it harder and more brittle and more likely to crack when formed or fired. like a blacksmith plunging a hot horseshoe into oil....

[in2anity]

i have a resizing related question , with prefererce to reanealing . would you guys aneal before or after resizing , and why

It's a bit of a "chicken or egg" scenario isn't it BR. Annealing is undoing the brittleness of working the brass. The question is, do you want this softening to occur before or after the form. I always try to do as little working as possible following an anneal, which usually comes in the form of a collet neck size. So if you have the collet neck sizing die, I reckon do the anneal after the form (so long as the round is chambering ok following the form, i.e. the shoulders are set back enough for smooth chambering).

So I guess in this scenario, this is the order i'd personally take:
1) Form the brass with a FLS die
2) Test chambering with a dummy round
3) Anneal
4) Lastly, collet neck-size to achieve neck tension

[Stix]

Hey i know ive changed the thread on more than one occasion where i thought it might be quick..

But i wonder if its worthwhile that the annealing discussion be in its own thread...?

Only in the interests of searching for answers at a later date...because its unlikely to be easy to find annealing info if its under a 243/308 sizing thread.

[bigrich]

i have a resizing related question , with prefererce to reanealing . would you guys aneal before or after resizing , and why

It's a bit of a "chicken or egg" scenario isn't it BR. Annealing is undoing the brittleness of working the brass. The question is, do you want this softening to occur before or after the form. I always try to do as little working as possible following an anneal, which usually comes in the form of a collet neck size. So if you have the collet neck sizing die, I reckon do the anneal after the form (so long as the round is chambering ok following the form, i.e. the shoulders are set back enough for smooth chambering).

So I guess in this scenario, this is the order i'd personally take:
1) Form the brass with a FLS die
2) Test chambering with a dummy round
3) Anneal
4) Lastly, collet neck-size to achieve neck tension

thanks for the feed back in2anity , i anealed after forming , i suspected this would be the correct method . collet dies for 358 probably aren't easy to get in australia unfortunately. stretching from a smaller neck size to a larger doesn't seem to have done the brass any harm, i've put the verniers over the neck thickness and the difference before and after reforming is .002 . i think for the OP's job, as others have said neck wall thickness could be a issue
yeah stix old mate , i probably shoulda put my question under a anealing topic, but while everyone was talking about resizing.....

[SCJ429]

l have a feeling it would be just simpler to buy some good 243 cases

I forgot to mention why I was doing this, these are Palma brass with the small primer pocket, if anyone tells me where I can buy "243 Palma" I'll give up my efforts!

High attrition rate, but I have 20 usable cartridges now which I will test with light loads, resize, trim etc and measure all the criticals...

I have no experience with Starline brass but I suspect that Lapua large primer brass would give you a better result. I have used Lapua Palma brass to make 243 and 260 cases. It did give me more firings before the primer pocket loosened up but it is really only an advantage if you are pushing for some extra speed to get you to a faster node.

Not that I am an expert but using sizing wax and various bushings in my dies, I do not loose any cases when necking down.

What bullet are you looking to shoot with your 243.?

[Oldbloke]

i have a resizing related question , with prefererce to reanealing . would you guys aneal before or after resizing , and why

I'm not an expert, new to this myself, but from metalworking knowledge - annealing makes the metal softer if you let it cool slowly, so it is more malleable and can survive being manipulated. So before resizing makes sense to me.

If you cool quickly it makes it harder and more brittle and more likely to crack when formed or fired. like a blacksmith plunging a hot horseshoe into oil....

yes correct

No, that applies to carbon steel. Not non-Ferris metals.

In fact when annealing brass makes no difference if you quench it or not. I dont.

[ash_hendo]

l have a feeling it would be just simpler to buy some good 243 cases

I forgot to mention why I was doing this, these are Palma brass with the small primer pocket, if anyone tells me where I can buy "243 Palma" I'll give up my efforts!

High attrition rate, but I have 20 usable cartridges now which I will test with light loads, resize, trim etc and measure all the criticals...

I have no experience with Starline brass but I suspect that Lapua large primer brass would give you a better result. I have used Lapua Palma brass to make 243 and 260 cases. It did give me more firings before the primer pocket loosened up but it is really only an advantage if you are pushing for some extra speed to get you to a faster node.

Not that I am an expert but using sizing wax and various bushings in my dies, I do not loose any cases when necking down.

What bullet are you looking to shoot with your 243.?

I'm looking to shoot 55 grain through to 95 grain.

[ash_hendo]

i have a resizing related question , with prefererce to reanealing . would you guys aneal before or after resizing , and why

I'm not an expert, new to this myself, but from metalworking knowledge - annealing makes the metal softer if you let it cool slowly, so it is more malleable and can survive being manipulated. So before resizing makes sense to me.

If you cool quickly it makes it harder and more brittle and more likely to crack when formed or fired. like a blacksmith plunging a hot horseshoe into oil....

yes correct

No, that applies to carbon steel. Not non-Ferris metals.

In fact when annealing brass makes no difference if you quench it or not. I dont.

Interesting article on it: https://bisonballistics.com/articles/th ... -annealing

[SCJ429]

I used Lapua Palma brass to push 105 and 107 projectiles as fast as I could. If I wasn't leaning on my load I would not bother with small primer pockets. I got some decent life out of Lapua 243 brass that I pushed reasonably hard. Good luck with your project, is it a hunting rifle or something for the range?

[ash_hendo]

I used Lapua Palma brass to push 105 and 107 projectiles as fast as I could. If I wasn't leaning on my load I would not bother with small primer pockets. I got some decent life out of Lapua 243 brass that I pushed reasonably hard. Good luck with your project, is it a hunting rifle or something for the range?

Bit of both I now have 20 rounds to play with on the range and if I go camping/walkabout with my son, I only need to carry small primers for the 243 and 223....

Been thinking about getting a 6mm creedmoor barrel for the range, but I'm not sure I'd see the difference to the 243

[SCJ429]

There is not much between the 243 and Creedmoor case, I put the 243 AI reamer up my barrel, mainly because the 40 degree shoulders look cool and it helps to psych out the 6x47 Lapua shooters who suddenly think you have something special.

Have you thought of chambering your barrel in 6 BR?

[ash_hendo]

There is not much between the 243 and Creedmoor case, I put the 243 AI reamer up my barrel, mainly because the 40 degree shoulders look cool and it helps to psych out the 6x47 Lapua shooters who suddenly think you have something special.

Have you thought of chambering your barrel in 6 BR?

The 40 degree shoulders do look cool indeed....

Yes, I have thought about the 6 BR, but I'd probably go the 6m dasher because it looks cooler too

I wonder when the barrel throat wears out if you could ream to 6mm Creedmoor and get a 2nd life out of it?

[SCJ429]

That is exactly what I do to my 6mmBR barrels. I shoot about 1500 through it and then rechamber to 243AI. Shoot about another 1000 and the barrel is done.

You could do the same with a Dasher and then clean up the throat with your Creedmoor reamer.

[ash_hendo]

That is exactly what I do to my 6mmBR barrels. I shoot about 1500 through it and then rechamber to 243AI. Shoot about another 1000 and the barrel is done.

You could do the same with a Dasher and then clean up the throat with your Creedmoor reamer.

you've talked me into it Sounds like a new fun project.