Are magistrates out of touch or am I out of touch?

[TassieTiger]

This 29yr old gent was convicted of stealing and trafficking in firearms (stole 14 and 10 recovered) - yet, received a 9 month suspended sentence for 2 years. (This from a news story - I don’t have Facebook so have limited further info).

I know people who have opened the throttle on their motorbike for a few seconds, in the middle of no where and received a harsher penalty...


https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... n__=%2C%3B

[Ziege]

my experience magistrates are ******. have received a $1800 fine for breaching an order once, while the meth dealer before me that was caught with 20grams of meth got $600 and spent conviction. What makes it exceedingly worse is I was innocent and had breached nothing but my only witness and expert that would have cleared my name was dying of a heart attack and the magistrate didnt give a f***, so theyre complete ****** if you ask me.

[Bugman]

The real scary thing I came across some years back, was that a long term client of mine, who is a high end barrister told me that there is bias in the court system.
He could go into a court to battle it out for his client and know that the judge or magistrate on duty will either like him or not before a word is said. I found this a bit hard to accept, however, other legal eagles I have done work for also admit this same scenario. Judges and magistrates appear to have their favorites and also appear to show pre-determined bias based on their own opinions of matters, and not necessarily rules of law.
Buggered if I know, I guess just try and stay away from the legal system whichever state your in.

[Ziege]

bit hard to stay out of it when others make spontaneous and frivolous allegations against you, there needs to be stops in place to not allow mentally ill people to take out orders against others and to make it so they cant affect other peoples lives, legally, fiscally and socially. hate to say it but mentally unstable people belong in asylums or prison. seen far too much after being forced through the looking glass. there is no justification for allowing nutjobs to mess with peoples lives. the legal system needs abolishing and starting from fresh

[Blr243]

Magistrates,police , psychologists....dealing with negative things all day every day. All their lives. It has to affect them.

[TassieTiger]

Here’s the question for me re this case - If someone broke into your home, stole your safe and firearms etc - then took off and sold some of them and police caught them - would anyone been content to see the thief get a 9 month suspended sentence ? What would be the expected outcome for you ?

[Flyer]

Sounds to me like he did a deal with the cops.

"You tell us where the guns are, and we'll ask the prosecutor to have a word with the magistrate."

Happens all the time.

[mickb]

The wheels fell off the legal system quite a while ago. People quote crime rates staying the same but we now need twice the police and incarcerate twice as many people since 1990 to keep it the same level. Thats not a net positive effect, its a system that collapsed 50%.. So they run a carousel for certain offences, get them out of court and back into circulation as soon as possible, relieve pressure on the system.

[Ziege]

Here’s the question for me re this case - If someone broke into your home, stole your safe and firearms etc - then took off and sold some of them and police caught them - would anyone been content to see the thief get a 9 month suspended sentence ? What would be the expected outcome for you ?

I would expect maximum penalty for each offence, max for aggravated burglary, maximum for illegal possession of firearm and each being charged as separate offences, maximum for trafficking per item as separate offences and charges, maximum penalty for illegal possession of ammunition and or powder/whatever all charged separate per round, and then I would expect none of those sentences to be served concurrently but instead consecutively, so if the piece of s**t spends the rest of his life in prison no matter how many appeals then its still too short a sentence. people need to be 100% deterred from committing any such crime, magistrates and the penal system are far too lenient.

[TassieTiger]

Here’s the question for me re this case - If someone broke into your home, stole your safe and firearms etc - then took off and sold some of them and police caught them - would anyone been content to see the thief get a 9 month suspended sentence ? What would be the expected outcome for you ?

I would expect maximum penalty for each offence, max for aggravated burglary, maximum for illegal possession of firearm and each being charged as separate offences, maximum for trafficking per item as separate offences and charges, maximum penalty for illegal possession of ammunition and or powder/whatever all charged separate per round, and then I would expect none of those sentences to be served concurrently but instead consecutively, so if the piece of s**t spends the rest of his life in prison no matter how many appeals then its still too short a sentence. people need to be 100% deterred from committing any such crime, magistrates and the penal system are far too lenient.

I’m there as well - I doubt they took great care of said firearms whilst they were in their stolen possession so can almost guarantee there would be damage to scopes, stocks, etc. who knows...
I’d want, and push for max penalties also and I’d be standing alongside prosecutors asking wtf has occurred here...

This magistrate has effectively conveyed to thief’s everywhere - stealing firearms is a minor offence...

[deye243]

As far as I'm concerned all judge's Magistrates need to be put up against the wall and yeah well you know and leave the sorting out of the problems to us the people it'd be a far better system

[Blr243]

Suspended sentences are bul ******. It’s a warning instead of a punishment

[Die Judicii]

They are all bent, twisted, pompous Rsoles.

When the average Joe Citizen ends up in court,, he/she/they have to bow, scrape, speak respectfully, address them as Sir, Your honor, etc etc,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Yet when they refer to Joe Citizen they have no respect whatever,,,,, and always speak rudely and arrogantly and never ever say Mr Citizen, or Joe ,,,,
Nope,,,,,,, they refer to him as "Citizen".

Can you imagine the back lash if you addressed "Magistrate Theodore Stanley" as Hey Stanley,,,, can ya be lenient please ?

Nah,,,,,,,,, they are all up themselves pompous over rated and over paid pricks.

[Blr243]

Twice I have been in trouble with the law , points accumulation and speeding. Both times the magistrate was very reasonable and very fair ..I was actually quite shocked at how nice he was to me.....at one stage I was given a period of time to not get in trouble ( I think it was not allowed to accumulate a demerit point in a twelve month period ) ....but 50 weeks into my “be good for one year period “I stuffed up and got caught speeding .... theoretically that means you loose your licence but because I nearly made it an entire year without an offence the judge said that was good enough for him and he let me keep my licence ....so no complaints from me

[Flyer]

I spent a lot of time in courts as a court reporter back in the day and there were several things that would set magistrates off. The first was wasting the court's time by not being prepared or trying to argue an irrelevant matter. The second was not showing the court due respect. Magistrates process dozens of cases each day - it's like being in a doctor's waiting room and then being privvy to each examination – so they don't like their time wasted.

Being polite, approriately dressed, and answering in a direct manner are all likely to be looked upon more favourably. But magistrates are people too, and some have better days that others. Some are hard and some are more lenient. There's also pressure from above. It costs a lot of money to incarcerate people, and governments can't always keep building new jails. So it should come as no surprise that every now and then there may be directions within the judiciary to avoid jailing people where appropriate. There is also a continuing trend to try to rehabilitate people and not just punish them. After all, they have to be let out of jail some time, and the longer they spend in there, the harder it is to adapt upon release.

Repeat offenders are not what judges like to see, because it places a huge burden on government resources. There is also another trend of thought that people are not born bad, they are made bad – either through circumstance or cycles of family abuse. If you want to make someone "badder" and perpetuate the cycle, then throw them in jail. But if there's a way to rehabilitate and help them turn a corner, then that's ultimately more benficial to society. Nothing is black and white and those who adopt the "lock them up and throw away the key" approach are usually oversimplifying. If someone is truly a danger to society, then they should be kept away from society. But when many are locked up for non-violent drug offences that only harm themselves, or commit petty social-economic crimes with few consequences, then it often makes things worse.

[mickb]

where the system fell down is people equating laws with good behaviour. laws are just 1/3 of the pie. The other two are culture and resources. If either one of these two slide, adding laws doesnt help. At first your laws get tougher trying to compensate, but eventually you are either locking up twice as many people( as we are now) or giving up( which we are starting to do now).

A good culture needs less laws since again the general expectation is to behave. Also a good culture with balanced laws can be trusted with more summary justice at citizen level. While it wasnt perfect, our old system of corporal punishment in all parts of life dissuaded a lot of d**kheads. Teachers caned kids, your dad could boot the kids butt who knocked his bins over, I could throw a drunk guy off a train without sitting there looking like a stuffed dummy hoping for transit guards to turn up, and if 7 kids from different houses were throwing rocks at a cat in a tree, the nearest parent, regardless who it was would arrive with a wooden spoon and give every kid a licking.

Accepted, acceptable mid range corporal punishment, it was like having 10 million amatuer cops on duty 24/7.

Then we were told we cant do any of that, and tried to replace it with a system where just 40,000 cops have to cover everything. Hence the number of cops increasing, the number of prisoners doubling since 1990, all to try and control behaviour. Some of the replies on the thread show folks arent aware of the problem here "Add more laws and tougher sentences" etc. Too late for that kids.

[Ziege]

A good culture needs less laws since again the general expectation is to behave. Also a good culture with balanced laws can be trusted with more summary justice at citizen level. While it wasnt perfect, our old system of corporal punishment in all parts of life dissuaded a lot of d**kheads. Teachers caned kids, your dad could boot the kids butt who knocked his bins over, I could throw a drunk guy off a train without sitting there looking like a stuffed dummy hoping for transit guards to turn up, and if 7 kids from different houses were throwing rocks at a cat in a tree, the nearest parent, regardless who it was would arrive with a wooden spoon and give every kid a licking.

Accepted, acceptable mid range corporal punishment, it was like having 10 million amatuer cops on duty 24/7.

Then we were told we cant do any of that, and tried to replace it with a system where just 40,000 cops have to cover everything. Hence the number of cops increasing, the number of prisoners doubling since 1990, all to try and control behaviour. Some of the replies on the thread show folks arent aware of the problem here "Add more laws and tougher sentences" etc. Too late for that kids.

precisely, there is nothing in society to ensure people are held accountable and made personally responsible on the spot. if the system is going to work like it does now that simply will never solve anything, and sure some people went overboard with floggings once. but let the extreme cases see court rooms, if i catch a kid breaking into my car, he should be so lucky as to have a beat down and be free to go home to contemplate alternative actions in the future, rather than being strained through the very loose sieve that is the judicial system and put back into the community unabated.

[SAnewb85]

Magistrates have been letting the police down for decades.
Overcrowded jails, corruption, legal sector boys club BS, etc etc.

Massive issue is the complete lack of accountability within the system.
Nobody with any power is judging the judges.

If judges were charged as an accessory to the crime and given the same punishments as the offenders for subsequent offences that they had previously let go with a suspended slap on the wrist, they would tighten up their sentencing reql quick.

As mentioned above, the days of accountability, a smack on the behind or a caning for being an a**hole of a kid are long gone and there is a correlation between lack of punishment and a lack of respect in society.

Not to mention that scumbag lawyers are constantly playing the junkie/abuse card, the discrimination/racism card.
Notice that nobody is advocating the personal responsibility card?

Every interaction I've ever had with a judge or a cop, I've gotten exactly what i deserved.

Be a smarta** punk to a cop/judge, expect a touch up or more charges/harsher penalties.

Be reasonable, respectful and don't try to worm your way out of taking responsibility for your actions and you'll generally be treated fairly and reasonably.

That's my experience anyway.

To sum up- bring back corporal punishment, up to qnd uncluding the death penalty.

[Flyer]

Magistrates have been letting the police down for decades.
Overcrowded jails, corruption, legal sector boys club BS, etc etc.

Massive issue is the complete lack of accountability within the system.
Nobody with any power is judging the judges.

If judges were charged as an accessory to the crime and given the same punishments as the offenders for subsequent offences that they had previously let go with a suspended slap on the wrist, they would tighten up their sentencing reql quick.

As mentioned above, the days of accountability, a smack on the behind or a caning for being an a**hole of a kid are long gone and there is a correlation between lack of punishment and a lack of respect in society.

Not to mention that scumbag lawyers are constantly playing the junkie/abuse card, the discrimination/racism card.
Notice that nobody is advocating the personal responsibility card?

Every interaction I've ever had with a judge or a cop, I've gotten exactly what i deserved.

Be a smarta** punk to a cop/judge, expect a touch up or more charges/harsher penalties.

Be reasonable, respectful and don't try to worm your way out of taking responsibility for your actions and you'll generally be treated fairly and reasonably.

That's my experience anyway.

To sum up- bring back corporal punishment, up to qnd uncluding the death penalty.

Your post doesn't really make a lot of sense. First magistrates are letting the cops down, yet the jails are overcrowded. How could they be overcrowded if judges aren't putting people away?

You say there's no accountability, and yet you can appeal a magistrate's decision in a higher court. Then you can appeal that in an appeals court. There are many avenues for appealing decisions. You can even have it raised in parliament.

You also start by having saying magistrates are "corrupt", but finish by saying you have "generally been treated fairly and reasonably". So which is it?

I'm not picking on your post, but it's very contradictory.

And if anyone wants to know why corporal punishment was phased out, it's because it was often abused by those in power. When does a smack on the bum become a belt or a stick or slap or a punch in the face? Who draws the line to say teachers/neighbours/Joe Bloggs etc can hit children but they can't assault them?

Adults are prohibited from hitting children because not all adults can be trusted not to go too far. That's how the law got to where it is.

[Ziege]

I can appreciate WHY adults are now not allowed to dish out corporal punishment, however it doesn't aid in society one bit, there is not one single punishment for children or minors aside from incarceration that has any effect. the lawlessness of the future generations is fuelled by the inaction of those who have custody of the present.

[Ziege]

yes just as much as how most criminals come from single mother house holds, the lack of conviction and authority in a role model is directly linked to criminality, whilst not a child psychologist, I am a qualified Counsellor and Mediator and the majority of my practice in that has been with criminals and their family issues/pasts. cheers, again you don't cease to meet expectations as the local know it all. You do come across as the usual college dropout type, but remember a little bit of knowledge is dangerous. If anyone here were as naive to believe you know all that you attest to they would also have to subscribe to the idea that you have a tertiary education in all the subjects/disciples you have been condescending about prior, this is obviously not the case so then the only logical conclusion is that you simply regurgitate enough garb to try and increase your ego and epeen, as such I am now and forevermore going to dismiss you. consider yourself blocked.

[Ziege]

cant imagine the response but no doubt its out of context and complete off the mark... cheers.

[SAnewb85]

Magistrates have been letting the police down for decades.
Overcrowded jails, corruption, legal sector boys club BS, etc etc.

Massive issue is the complete lack of accountability within the system.
Nobody with any power is judging the judges.

If judges were charged as an accessory to the crime and given the same punishments as the offenders for subsequent offences that they had previously let go with a suspended slap on the wrist, they would tighten up their sentencing reql quick.

As mentioned above, the days of accountability, a smack on the behind or a caning for being an a**hole of a kid are long gone and there is a correlation between lack of punishment and a lack of respect in society.

Not to mention that scumbag lawyers are constantly playing the junkie/abuse card, the discrimination/racism card.
Notice that nobody is advocating the personal responsibility card?

Every interaction I've ever had with a judge or a cop, I've gotten exactly what i deserved.

Be a smarta** punk to a cop/judge, expect a touch up or more charges/harsher penalties.

Be reasonable, respectful and don't try to worm your way out of taking responsibility for your actions and you'll generally be treated fairly and reasonably.

That's my experience anyway.

To sum up- bring back corporal punishment, up to qnd uncluding the death penalty.

Your post doesn't really make a lot of sense. First magistrates are letting the cops down, yet the jails are overcrowded. How could they be overcrowded if judges aren't putting people away?

You say there's no accountability, and yet you can appeal a magistrate's decision in a higher court. Then you can appeal that in an appeals court. There are many avenues for appealing decisions. You can even have it raised in parliament.

You also start by having saying magistrates are "corrupt", but finish by saying you have "generally been treated fairly and reasonably". So which is it?

I'm not picking on your post, but it's very contradictory.

And if anyone wants to know why corporal punishment was phased out, it's because it was often abused by those in power. When does a smack on the bum become a belt or a stick or slap or a punch in the face? Who draws the line to say teachers/neighbours/Joe Bloggs etc can hit children but they can't assault them?

Adults are prohibited from hitting children because not all adults can be trusted not to go too far. That's how the law got to where it is.

Magistrates are letting thr police down by giving piss weak sentences and the revolving door garbage that seems to be the norm.

Jails are over crowded because the governments won't build more jails, so people who deserve at least a little bit of jail time don't get it and are once again part of the revolving door nonsense.

Regarding accountability- yes there are appeals courts, but the judges have no penalty for their leniency on repeat offenders.

Corruption- my offences were minor, so it's not like I needed the legal boys club or a fat stack of cash to get out of jail time.

As for corporal punishment, I got belted as a kid for my wrongdoing and perceived wrongdoings.
It sucked at the time but now I'm in my mid 30's I fully understand that actions have consequences.

I work, i'm a good father, I obey the law.
I am not a junkie, criminal, wife beater.

Is that clearer for you?

[Ziege]

thing is society is divided into castes, people pretend it isn't but it definitely is, magistrates and the likes are elitist, they have either been born into, wormed their way into or schemed their way into it, like all castes of society they have their nice and mean people, their narcissists and their humble. my experience both personally and vicariously is that they are far too harsh on some minor things and far too lenient on drugs and drug users.

[mickb]

And if anyone wants to know why corporal punishment was phased out, it's because it was often abused by those in power.

When does a smack on the bum become a belt or a stick or slap or a punch in the face? Who draws the line to say teachers/neighbours/Joe Bloggs etc can hit children but they can't assault them?

When does owning a gun present too much danger to the public? Its the same reasoning. The line is drawn when a strong cutlure creates a socieital expectation to do the right thing, even without a particular law being in place, and this includes accepting the benefits despite the errors. And it worked fine.

Then we removed peoples ability to police their own behaviour in a lot of ways ...and so far all we have is three times more police on the street and twice as many people going to prisons. Child abuse, domestic violence, neglect all still occurring, no goals kicked there.

Adults are prohibited from hitting children because not all adults can be trusted not to go too far. That's how the law got to where it is.

Not all adults can be trusted to own guns either. Thats how that law got where it is too, with the government trying to take more guns away all the time. My position is reasonable adults can be trusted a lot more especially when they are able to 'correct unreasonable adults'

[Ziege]

I'm definitely with you there Mickb, none of the soft touch, lefty enabling helped.

[Flyer]

Magistrates are letting thr police down by giving piss weak sentences and the revolving door garbage that seems to be the norm.

Jails are over crowded because the governments won't build more jails, so people who deserve at least a little bit of jail time don't get it and are once again part of the revolving door nonsense.

Regarding accountability- yes there are appeals courts, but the judges have no penalty for their leniency on repeat offenders.

Corruption- my offences were minor, so it's not like I needed the legal boys club or a fat stack of cash to get out of jail time.

As for corporal punishment, I got belted as a kid for my wrongdoing and perceived wrongdoings.
It sucked at the time but now I'm in my mid 30's I fully understand that actions have consequences.

I work, i'm a good father, I obey the law.
I am not a junkie, criminal, wife beater.

Is that clearer for you?

You got belted as a kid, but it didn't stop you offending as an adult.

You're not a "junkie, criminal, wife beater". That's good. Neither am I. Nor are most men. But we didn't need to be belted as kids to know that beating women or taking advantage of other people is wrong.

If you're not a junkie, and I'm not a junkie, then we should also be thankful we're among the lucky ones who can have the occassional beer and not be an alcoholic – because alcohol is one of the most damaging (and quite addictive) drugs on earth, the direct cause of many crimes, and yet it is still completely legal. I'm willing to bet you probably don't want alcohol banned to reduce the crime rate . . . even though it is proven to work.

You say we need to build more jails, and yet Australia is already jailing 130% more people per head of population than we were in 1985 – that means our prison population per capita has more than doubled in the past 35 years.

Prosecutors can appeal a judge's sentence if they believe it is too lenient. So they are accountable for their rulings.

My point is, you are entitled to your views – and I make no judgements on your own brushes with the law - but your arguments are still not consistent.

[Bugman]

My point is, you are entitled to your views – and I make no judgements on your own brushes with the law - but your arguments are still not consistent

Consistent with what? Your arguments?Your opinions?.......gees, I need a Pauline Hanson on that comment....."please explain"

[Grandadbushy]

Jesus!, you're a hard man Ziege

[SAnewb85]

Magistrates are letting thr police down by giving piss weak sentences and the revolving door garbage that seems to be the norm.

Jails are over crowded because the governments won't build more jails, so people who deserve at least a little bit of jail time don't get it and are once again part of the revolving door nonsense.

Regarding accountability- yes there are appeals courts, but the judges have no penalty for their leniency on repeat offenders.

Corruption- my offences were minor, so it's not like I needed the legal boys club or a fat stack of cash to get out of jail time.

As for corporal punishment, I got belted as a kid for my wrongdoing and perceived wrongdoings.
It sucked at the time but now I'm in my mid 30's I fully understand that actions have consequences.

I work, i'm a good father, I obey the law.
I am not a junkie, criminal, wife beater.

Is that clearer for you?

You got belted as a kid, but it didn't stop you offending as an adult.

You're not a "junkie, criminal, wife beater". That's good. Neither am I. Nor are most men. But we didn't need to be belted as kids to know that beating women or taking advantage of other people is wrong.

If you're not a junkie, and I'm not a junkie, then we should also be thankful we're among the lucky ones who can have the occassional beer and not be an alcoholic – because alcohol is one of the most damaging (and quite addictive) drugs on earth, the direct cause of many crimes, and yet it is still completely legal. I'm willing to bet you probably don't want alcohol banned to reduce the crime rate . . . even though it is proven to work.

You say we need to build more jails, and yet Australia is already jailing 130% more people per head of population than we were in 1985 – that means our prison population per capita has more than doubled in the past 35 years.

Prosecutors can appeal a judge's sentence if they believe it is too lenient. So they are accountable for their rulings.

My point is, you are entitled to your views – and I make no judgements on your own brushes with the law - but your arguments are still not consistent.

My brushes with the law/offending were minor.
Lots of driving offences in a short period.

Getting belted didn't stop my lead foot but it definitely helped me be a better father (was a good example of how not to parent)

If we're jailing so many people, we need more prisons to house said jailed prisoners yes?
Which will stop the pathetic sentencing that is going on.

2 years jail and counselling for raping a child is bullspit and anyone who disagrees is probably a kiddy fiddler themselves.
I don't care how you grew up, how many years you've been a drunk/junkie/etc, if you hurt a child or the elderly you deserve the death penalty.
Child molesters are among the highest reoffenders so clearly they can not be rehabilitated.

Give them the needle, then give the money that would have been spent housing said paedophile to the victim for counselling and support services.
Hopefully stop the cycle of the abused becoming the abuser.

Criminalising alcohol doesn't work.
Handy hint- google prohibition in the 20's.
You may have heard of a bloke named Al Capone, made tons of money, killed a bunch of people, plus corrupted the city of Chicago.

Ring any bells?