Sauer 100 Classic vs HOWA 1500 Sporter

[pilotsignal]

Hi Guys,

I have just had a long Skype-fight with mate of mine back in Europe over which rifle is best HOWA or Sauer both in 223REM. He is a hunter and I am mostly set for a target shooting (well, going to be once ranges are open again).
He is pushing me towards Sauer 100 as he said he had both and Sauer much better rifle. I doubted him because I read so many not too good reviews on Sauer and plenty good on HOWA
So, my question is if you guys had a choice to buy either, which one would it be for both target shooting and hunting?
BTW, I have just got my PTA approved so, my interest is not that much hypotetical here
Thanks.

[in2anity]

Ye olde euro vs jap debate. Just remember the sauer 100 was launched in 2016, yet the howa 1500 has barely changed since being copied from the Sako Golden Bear (close enough to Finnbear) designed back in the 1960s. I didn't like the original 2-stage-ish trigger on my howa 1500, and if there's any proof of similar ill-feeling, it's everyone's knowledge/desire to have the triggers adjusted by ebay trigger guy. Meanwhile the sauer is allen key adjustable down to 1kg, and a clean single break. That's convenience.

The bolt is an old 2-lug affair on the howa 1500; which equates to a 90degree throw, meaning you may have to mount your scope higher for clearance (depending on your obj size). Meanwhile the sauer is a 3-lug, meaning the throw is less, at 60degree, improving your chances of having a low mount scope. I do like 3-lug designs - my plastic fantastic little ruger hunting rifle is a 3-lugger and i can work it fast, not to mention the scope is extremely low mount, low magnification, small obj for out in the sticks.

I haven't pulled one apart, but the bedding seems fancier in the poly Sauer. A modern take.

The bolt handle is also tiny on the howa - with no threading to change it, unlike the Sauer.

Nevertheless, most accuracy comes from the barrel. And comparing the two barrels in like-for-like contours, I couldn't tell you which is superior. Both are cold hammer forged. Both would probably print a similar 3-shot sub-moa group. The ability to group would likely boil down to the quirks of individual barrels, and of course, feeding them what they like.

[disco stu]

Is it also that the Howa is cheaper, so therefore people expect more from the Sauer and are more surprised by the Howa?

[Diamond Jim]

In my limited experience, Howa are very good value for money - I can't say they are superior to the Sauer but they can shoot. If you are buying a rifle for carrying in the field I counsel you not to get a Varmint profile barrel - they are heavy!

[Faedy]

Got Howa and Sauer 202. Absolutely no comparison.
Sauer wins hands down for quality and accuracy

[deye243]

In 223R it gets boring the amount of howas that shoot half inch 5 shot groups I have one in my safe my son has one in his my mates have them if like me all you care about is consistent accuracy howa hands down .

[Peter988]

Love my Sauer in 223.

[Harrynsw]

My sauer 100 xt in 223 has a bit of a feeding issue, especially pushing the first round into the chamber. Not sure if it's just mine. Also the cerakote is a bit average as time has worn on.
Other than that, it shoots nice and dosnt look to bad.

[Blr243]

I have both brands. Sauer is better trigger and much better safety .....howa cheaper

[Fred Smith]

I have a Sauer 100 Classic in 6.5 x 55. Its just an awesome rifle and I really like the trigger. It is my GOTO rifle if heading up the paddock and need something to carry. If there had of been one in 22-250 (not a Sauer 202), I would of purchased it instead of the Howa. One other small thing many people don't know is that the "100" has a screwed barrel, where as the 202 etc are shrunk/pressed fitted. As for accuracy, both the Sauer and Howa are much of a muchness and both shoot 0.5 inches or better at 100 meters (trust me, its the rifles, not me ) . 5 shot group with handloads.

[Bill]

The Sauer will have better ergonomics and QC cause thats what happens at that price point and when it comes from Europe, nothing wrong with Howa's and Ill confess they make great accurate barrels but not quite at the level of Sauer/Mauser. I've had 3 howa's and they all shot great. Trigger wise Sauer/Mauser beats a factory Howa even a modded Howa trigger.

[pilotsignal]

Thaks everyone for sharing your thoughts on this. I am also leaning towards Sauer. Only, that I read about 2 comments that there is an issue with feeding a round into the chamber. But, that may be a particular rifle issue not a design one.
Also, it looks a bit better

[Peter988]

Thaks everyone for sharing your thoughts on this. I am also leaning towards Sauer. Only, that I read about 2 comments that there is an issue with feeding a round into the chamber. But, that may be a particular rifle issue not a design one.
Also, it looks a bit better

I had a feeding issue with the 223. The 4 shot mag fed the first 2 ok but not the 3rd. Took it back to dealer. They fixed that. Probably put 1000 shots through since without a problem.

[in2anity]

Almost certainly a magazine issue - as-is the HOWA, the Sauer is a simple push-feed action, so the feed lip angle/height is critical. If it were a metal magazine, you could tune your feed lips to match the projectile; alas we are in the age of plastic fantastic. Still, a solveable problem - replace/warranty the mag or try perhaps an aftermarket?

Also, the HOWA's aren't exactly "free from all feeding issues" - over the years I've seen a few new ones exhibiting feeding issues. Have a look at this video:

https://youtu.be/3CmQypK8eBo?t=818 at timestamp 13:40

around this time, I knew a few people having similar issues with their new HOWAs.

[Bugman]

I had a look at both these. Mighty fine rifles, but I also looked at the Weatherby Vanguard, and that is what I ended up with. With a bit of scope tweaking and reloading tweaking it ended up shooting .386 of an inch (3 shot group) at 100m. This information can pertain to any of the rifles mentioned. I guess in the end, opinions will vary, but you have to go with what you think will suit you.
Hope you succeed.

[in2anity]

I had a look at both these. Mighty fine rifles, but I also looked at the Weatherby Vanguard, and that is what I ended up with. With a bit of scope tweaking and reloading tweaking it ended up shooting .386 of an inch (3 shot group) at 100m. This information can pertain to any of the rifles mentioned. I guess in the end, opinions will vary, but you have to go with what you think will suit you.
Hope you succeed.

Bugman what made you choose the Vanguard over the Sauer?

[Bugman]

I just liked the style and it felt comfortable for me plus the price at the time. Still got it and use it regularly.

[in2anity]

Yeah fair enough. I have a Walnut 1500 myself - it used to be a 204, now re-barreled to a heavy 223 running the lucky13 10-shot. It has a timney. Beast of a rifle, that I sometimes shoot non-service class with. It shoots the 69gr SMK out to 500m very competitively, so long as the wind is somewhat consistent. It's a 1:9". Buuuut... is it my nicest/smoothest/feature-rich/well-machined rifle? Far far from it.

[JohnV]

Ye olde euro vs jap debate. Just remember the sauer 100 was launched in 2016, yet the howa 1500 has barely changed since being copied from the Sako Golden Bear (close enough to Finnbear) designed back in the 1960s. I didn't like the original 2-stage-ish trigger on my howa 1500, and if there's any proof of similar ill-feeling, it's everyone's knowledge/desire to have the triggers adjusted by ebay trigger guy. Meanwhile the sauer is allen key adjustable down to 1kg, and a clean single break. That's convenience.

The bolt is an old 2-lug affair on the howa 1500; which equates to a 90degree throw, meaning you may have to mount your scope higher for clearance (depending on your obj size). Meanwhile the sauer is a 3-lug, meaning the throw is less, at 60degree, improving your chances of having a low mount scope. I do like 3-lug designs - my plastic fantastic little ruger hunting rifle is a 3-lugger and i can work it fast, not to mention the scope is extremely low mount, low magnification, small obj for out in the sticks.

I haven't pulled one apart, but the bedding seems fancier in the poly Sauer. A modern take.

The bolt handle is also tiny on the howa - with no threading to change it, unlike the Sauer.

Nevertheless, most accuracy comes from the barrel. And comparing the two barrels in like-for-like contours, I couldn't tell you which is superior. Both are cold hammer forged. Both would probably print a similar 3-shot sub-moa group. The ability to group would likely boil down to the quirks of individual barrels, and of course, feeding them what they like.

Who says that the basic Howa action is a copy of the Sako Golden bear ? It has a nearly M16 extractor , Remington style lugs and bolt body , Sako early series type bolt take down . Howa took their design from the Australian CMC mountaineer that was designed by Australian company Rabbige Sports and distributed by Commercial Marketing Company and manufactured in Japan by Howa . It does have some similarities to the Golden Bear but they were probably copied to design the CMC Mountaineer which was the design sent to Howa to make .
They went out of business and Howa took over the design and renamed it the Howa .

[in2anity]

Who says that the basic Howa action is a copy of the Sako Golden bear ? It has a nearly M16 extractor , Remington style lugs and bolt body , Sako early series type bolt take down . Howa took their design from the Australian CMC mountaineer that was designed by Australian company Rabbige Sports and distributed by Commercial Marketing Company and manufactured in Japan by Howa . It does have some similarities to the Golden Bear but they were probably copied to design the CMC Mountaineer which was the design sent to Howa to make .
They went out of business and Howa took over the design and renamed it the Howa .

Not gonna argue around semantics, but that's the generalization that is often made. In any case I don't have one to compare to, nor am I particularly knowledgeable in the history, nor do I care. Happy to admit that.

The point was, it's an old design compared to the Sauer 100. We digress.

[JohnV]

It's not very useful to even compare the two guns as they are so different and it would depend on personal needs more than one being better than the other . It's not even possible to properly advise someone without information on what they want to use it for .

[SCJ429]

Who says that the basic Howa action is a copy of the Sako Golden bear ? It has a nearly M16 extractor , Remington style lugs and bolt body , Sako early series type bolt take down . Howa took their design from the Australian CMC mountaineer that was designed by Australian company Rabbige Sports and distributed by Commercial Marketing Company and manufactured in Japan by Howa . It does have some similarities to the Golden Bear but they were probably copied to design the CMC Mountaineer which was the design sent to Howa to make .
They went out of business and Howa took over the design and renamed it the Howa .

Not gonna argue around semantics, but that's the generalization that is often made. In any case I don't have one to compare to, nor am I particularly knowledgeable in the history, nor do I care. Happy to admit that.

The point was, it's an old design compared to the Sauer 100. We digress.

It is a sound design, using the design features of other actions for 'inspiration'. I am sure most would agree that some Sako actions are remarkably similar and Howa has been taken to court by Sako in the past. The action is well machined by Howa and just needs a quality barrel.

[pilotsignal]

It's not very useful to even compare the two guns as they are so different and it would depend on personal needs more than one being better than the other . It's not even possible to properly advise someone without information on what they want to use it for .

Really? What is so different between those 2 rifles that they cannot be compared?
I understand that comparing Benelly 308 and Savage 22 may be hard, but those 2 are quite similar, are they not?
Can you please, share your thoughts what are so different between them and this also, can be a good point of compassion at least for me

[Bill]

Almost certainly a magazine issue - as-is the HOWA, the Sauer is a simple push-feed action, so the feed lip angle/height is critical. If it were a metal magazine, you could tune your feed lips to match the projectile; alas we are in the age of plastic fantastic. Still, a solveable problem - replace/warranty the mag or try perhaps an aftermarket?

Also, the HOWA's aren't exactly "free from all feeding issues" - over the years I've seen a few new ones exhibiting feeding issues. Have a look at this video:

https://youtu.be/3CmQypK8eBo?t=818 at timestamp 13:40

around this time, I knew a few people having similar issues with their new HOWAs.

Looks like the mag spring was almost too strong, I didnt have this issue in any of the 3 Howa minis Ive owned.

[pilotsignal]

I have read that mag issues only manifsets on mini action versions.
BTW, and I could not find this info at any shops online, are HOWA 1500 available with Long and Short actions as well as mini?

[in2anity]

Looks like the mag spring was almost too strong, I didnt have this issue in any of the 3 Howa minis Ive owned.

Yeah haven't heard it happening in recent times.

[disco stu]

I have read that mag issues only manifsets on mini action versions.
BTW, and I could not find this info at any shops online, are HOWA 1500 available with Long and Short actions as well as mini?

Short action definitely, I've got one in 308. Long action I'm pretty sure I've seen them in 30-06, 270 etc

[deye243]

Ye olde euro vs jap debate. Just remember the sauer 100 was launched in 2016, yet the howa 1500 has barely changed since being copied from the Sako Golden Bear (close enough to Finnbear) designed back in the 1960s. I didn't like the original 2-stage-ish trigger on my howa 1500, and if there's any proof of similar ill-feeling, it's everyone's knowledge/desire to have the triggers adjusted by ebay trigger guy. Meanwhile the sauer is allen key adjustable down to 1kg, and a clean single break. That's convenience.

The bolt is an old 2-lug affair on the howa 1500; which equates to a 90degree throw, meaning you may have to mount your scope higher for clearance (depending on your obj size). Meanwhile the sauer is a 3-lug, meaning the throw is less, at 60degree, improving your chances of having a low mount scope. I do like 3-lug designs - my plastic fantastic little ruger hunting rifle is a 3-lugger and i can work it fast, not to mention the scope is extremely low mount, low magnification, small obj for out in the sticks.

I haven't pulled one apart, but the bedding seems fancier in the poly Sauer. A modern take.

The bolt handle is also tiny on the howa - with no threading to change it, unlike the Sauer.

Nevertheless, most accuracy comes from the barrel. And comparing the two barrels in like-for-like contours, I couldn't tell you which is superior. Both are cold hammer forged. Both would probably print a similar 3-shot sub-moa group. The ability to group would likely boil down to the quirks of individual barrels, and of course, feeding them what they like.

Who says that the basic Howa action is a copy of the Sako Golden bear ? It has a nearly M16 extractor , Remington style lugs and bolt body , Sako early series type bolt take down . Howa took their design from the Australian CMC mountaineer that was designed by Australian company Rabbige Sports and distributed by Commercial Marketing Company and manufactured in Japan by Howa . It does have some similarities to the Golden Bear but they were probably copied to design the CMC Mountaineer which was the design sent to Howa to make .
They went out of business and Howa took over the design and renamed it the Howa .

I don't think you went far enough back with your research as way before the CMC Australian mountaineer rifle Smith and Wesson had this design marketed as the 1500 as well then it was the CMC and then it was the howa very old design been going for a long time only difference is I've seen in the whole three of them as slightly different triggers and of course different stocks .

[BillyBob257]

Hi
I have both Howa’s and Sauer 100’s
In the Howas I have short action 223 and long action 30-06 and 25-06
In the sauers 100’s I have 6.5x55, two 30-06’s and 9.3x62
No need to rattle off the specs - they are readily available.
From personal experience, the howas have been extremely accurate and great value for money. Only the 25-06 was a little temperamental with what it liked to eat and spit out.
All the sauers have been extremely accurate right out of the box which has brought a smile to my face. Even my 9.3x62 would give me 0.75 MOA for a 3 shot group. Considered to use it as a varmint rifle it is that accurate.
Ok maybe not lol.
The main differences that I found were
* with the Howas I did have to change the trigger spring to get the best accuracy out of the rifle. That wasnt a big deal - cheap and easy to do.
* Personal preference, the sauers felt better balanced and easier to shoulder for me. (Everyone is different . I just like the thin fore ends they just felt better for me)
* Personal preference again, I like 60 degree bolt of the Sauer over the 90 degree.
Though all my go to hunting rifles are now Sauer 100’s need to keep in mind that they are a little more expensive than base Howas which can free up a little money for better optics.
I found the sauers to have a better finish and the Howa actions to be very robust.
Keep in my that Howas do have more after market parts available especially with stocks if you want to tinker in the future
Suggest you try and pick them both up and see how the feel when you shoulder them.
Both make great hunting rifles from my limited experience
Hope that helps

[solarpak]

Have had and used both the Howa M1500 and Sauer S100 - as well as the Sauer S101, 202 and 404.
Both the M1500 and S100 are excellent rifles in their own right - they cater to all shooters and hunters with model specs to suit.
What i like on the howa m1500 is the factory floor plate set-up - simple and just works. Action design and operation never given any issues. Only the triggers do need a little tuning - but in general the howa M1500 - great for the coin.
Sauer S100 - great range of models but i have heard of some issues with cerakoted models (flaking cerakoting) - but havent seen any up close. The S100 has the barrels threaded into the receiver unlike the S101 which is heat friction fitted. Triggers are great on the S100 and the polymer mag is quite good too.
The Sauer S100 a bit more expensive than the Howa M1500 - but both excellent rifles and you wont go wrong with either.

C.