Shooting into water?

[duncan61]

I will google map the area and get a better idea of distance.It was the boys crow shooting they confessed to me at the pub later.I always thought a 22LR could do 2 K if fired in the air.Its 8-10 Kms from that farm to where I lived.I am interested in what other people think

[bladeracer]

I will google map the area and get a better idea of distance.It was the boys crow shooting they confessed to me at the pub later.I always thought a 22LR could do 2 K if fired in the air.Its 8-10 Kms from that farm to where I lived.I am interested in what other people think

Manufacturers used to list extremely optimistic distances, but they were safety warnings that included a huge safety margin in them. It's hard to get .22LR to go much further than about 1200m due to the huge drag of the heeled bullet.

[duncan61]

When I failed Fclass with my beloved .222 I looked at the chart and that is why I decided on 7mm rem mag but I do remember the 22/250 had a very low drop at distance as well.60gn in .224 is a bit of a spear compared to rimfire.I could see it traveling the distance.The lads said it was them and their dads farm was halfway to the coast at Preston beach on Johnstone road.I doubt a 30/30 would do it but the right bullet out of a 30/06 might

[bladeracer]

When I failed Fclass with my beloved .222 I looked at the chart and that is why I decided on 7mm rem mag but I do remember the 22/250 had a very low drop at distance as well.60gn in .224 is a bit of a spear compared to rimfire.I could see it traveling the distance.The lads said it was them and their dads farm was halfway to the coast at Preston beach on Johnstone road.I doubt a 30/30 would do it but the right bullet out of a 30/06 might

.224" centrefire jacketed bullets are more consistent in shape than cast bullets, and have much lower coefficients of drag, mainly due to not being heeled designs, but they're not that much different to a cast bullet of similar weight. .22-250 and .222 are limited by their common twist rates to short bullets with fairly high drag, so they dump velocity very quickly. Put a tight twist rate on either so you can run heavy very low drag bullets and you greatly extend their ranges.

If you had a .22-250 with a 7"-twist barrel, and use 95gn VLD bullets you might manage 4000m, possibly - I'd have to run it through a calculator.

To get out to 5000m or so you need custom rifles in things like .416 Cheytac with custom machined bullets. I don't think even the .50BMG can manage 5000m. Most conventional cartridges are lucky to manage the 4000m mark under ideal conditions.

[NTSOG]

G'day,

Remember Mythbusters? They did an experiment shooting into water to see if it would be safe to dive into water to avoid being hit. They shot rifles including .50 calibre into a swimming pool:

"Hiding underwater can stop bullets from hitting you.

PARTLY CONFIRMED

All supersonic bullets (up to .50-caliber) disintegrated in less than 3 feet (90 cm) of water, but slower velocity bullets, like pistol rounds, need up to 8 feet (2.4 m) of water to slow to non-lethal speeds. Shotgun slugs require even more depth (the exact depth couldn’t be determined because their one test broke the rig). However, as most water-bound shots are fired from an angle, less actual depth is needed to create the necessary separation."

The program can be found here:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=my ... &FORM=VIRE

Jim

[animalpest]

A bullet from a 22/250 travelling 8-10 km then hitting a road and then breaking a car window.

There is one word to describe that scenario.

Impossible

[bladeracer]

The lads said it was them and their dads farm was halfway to the coast at Preston beach on Johnstone road.

They didn't do it, and their lack of understanding of the capability of their firearms has left them believing they did. Even if it were possible (it isn't), the only way to know for sure is forensic comparison of the bullet to match it to their rifle, which is probably impossible after going through safety glass and bouncing off asphalt, even if it could be recovered.

A fairly entertaining trick with vehicle glass (not the windscreen as that's laminated) is to apply a flame to it for a few seconds surreptitiously during a conversation. A little while later the glass will destroy itself as the heat tries to expand just that piece of the pane, with a decent bang. Very useful in movie effects.

Also, any force trying to bend safety glass will have the same result, one second you are carrying a pane, the next you are standing in a puddle of glass fragments. I would think most tradesmen would have experienced loading up their vehicle and having a window blow out while trying to close the door, because they didn't notice a piece of wood against the glass.

There are reasons for safety glass to appear to spontaneously explode, and it can take some investigation to determine the cause. I think it's unlikely this was caused by a bullet, and certainly not from eight kilometers or more distant.

If it were a bullet, and there were no other windows open to allow pass-through, and no report was heard loud enough to be noticed retrospectively as a possible gunshot, then it came from somewhere outside about a 500m radius, but within perhaps a 3000m radius. If it bounced off the glass at an oblique angle, without passing through the vehicle, then it came from within the two very narrow arcs out to each side of the window. If the impact you found on the road was related (also very difficult to determine without forensic analysis), then it came from within just one of those narrow arcs.

Depending on wind speed and direction, if it were fired subsonic it likely wouldn't have been heard from more than about 500m. If it fired at high-supersonic, the report would probably have been obvious within 1000m, and noticeable within perhaps 2000m. If it hit the window still supersonic, the sonic crack right beside you would've been louder than the window shattering. In the very unlikely event it was fired subsonically, from a .22, with a suppressor, it probably wouldn't have been heard at much more than 100m, but it also might not shatter a vehicle window at several hundred meters.

It's certainly possible the window was struck by a bullet, but outside of some evidence in that direction, I'd be investigating other possible causes well before looking for a shooter.

External ballistics is a very interesting subject for anybody with an interest in shooting.

[bladeracer]

G'day,

Remember Mythbusters? They did an experiment shooting into water to see if it would be safe to dive into water to avoid being hit. They shot rifles including .50 calibre into a swimming pool:

"Hiding underwater can stop bullets from hitting you.

PARTLY CONFIRMED

All supersonic bullets (up to .50-caliber) disintegrated in less than 3 feet (90 cm) of water, but slower velocity bullets, like pistol rounds, need up to 8 feet (2.4 m) of water to slow to non-lethal speeds. Shotgun slugs require even more depth (the exact depth couldn’t be determined because their one test broke the rig). However, as most water-bound shots are fired from an angle, less actual depth is needed to create the necessary separation."

The program can be found here:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=my ... &FORM=VIRE

Jim

I really wish they had expanded the test to determine the angle required for bullets to skip off the water instead of penetrating, that information is more useful.

[animalpest]

I lived in Yarloop and we had a visitor over in a little bubble car and we were standing outside chatting and next minute her back window blew up.I could see the entry hole and exit hole and I tracked it to the road surface and found a graze mark in the middle of the road.Some young guys were shooting at crows in the trees with a 22/250 about 8-10K away.Hows that for lucky missed all of us.The police visited them but they were not charged.Country towns are very forgiving

If you could see the "entry hole and exit hole" on the window and "tracked it to the road surface and found a graze mark" then compared to that, finding the projectile inside the vehicle would be a very simple task.

[duncan61]

A bullet from a 22/250 travelling 8-10 km then hitting a road and then breaking a car window.

There is one word to describe that scenario.

Impossible

That is the complete wrong way round.We were standing out side as Raylene was leaving and her back window just randomly shattered.I could see the hole in and out and tracked the direction and found a fresh graze on the tarmac surface.My 7mm Rem mag will shoot 1000m horizontal.At a 30 degree angle how far do you think it would go?

[bladeracer]

A bullet from a 22/250 travelling 8-10 km then hitting a road and then breaking a car window.

There is one word to describe that scenario.

Impossible

That is the complete wrong way round.We were standing out side as Raylene was leaving and her back window just randomly shattered.I could see the hole in and out and tracked the direction and found a fresh graze on the tarmac surface.My 7mm Rem mag will shoot 1000m horizontal.At a 30 degree angle how far do you think it would go?

Depends on the BC of the bullet, but probably around 2500m is my guess, get it up around 40-degrees and I reckon it should exceed 3000m.

Bullets do not follow a parabola, they launch significantly flatter than when they come back down due to washing off speed very quickly in air.

[bladeracer]

That is the complete wrong way round.We were standing out side as Raylene was leaving and her back window just randomly shattered.I could see the hole in and out and tracked the direction and found a fresh graze on the tarmac surface.My 7mm Rem mag will shoot 1000m horizontal.At a 30 degree angle how far do you think it would go?

In and out? You mean it went through two windows? I don't think you could track a path through glass from just one hole with any accuracy. I would expect safety glass to just fall in a pile, unless it's tied together with a tint film.

[animalpest]

Your 7mm mag will shoot 1000m horizontal? So that means at 1000m you have just 2 or 3 feet drop or less to be horizontal?

The same word I used before still applies.

[duncan61]

Perhaps the guys were closer than 8-10 kms.They may not of been at there dads place.We could all see where the bullet hit and the exit hole was much bigger.The back window was shattered but not in pieces inside the car the bulk of the window was being held together by some sort of film.I looked through where it had gone and that is how I knew where to look on the road.We all saw the mark and Raylene called the police who went out down Johnson Rd and they saw the guys with the rifle shooting up at crows.This is a small country town of about 400 people everyone knew everyone.What possible reason would I have to make this up

[bigpete]

Your 7mm mag will shoot 1000m horizontal? So that means at 1000m you have just 2 or 3 feet drop or less to be horizontal?

The same word I used before still applies.

[bigpete]

Unless you're 21 feet tall duncan there's no way your 7mm Remington mag shoots horizontal to 1000m ;D

[bigpete]

https://shooterscalculator.com/ballisti ... ate+Graph+

[bigpete]

Above is a ballistic chart based on a Berger 180gn VLD travelling at 2900fps from a 7mm Remington magnum,sighted 1.5" high at 100yd for a 200yd zero,showing 261" of drop at 1000yd. Methinks someone is full of the proverbial....

[animalpest]

Haha yep

[bladeracer]

Above is a ballistic chart based on a Berger 180gn VLD travelling at 2900fps from a 7mm Remington magnum,sighted 1.5" high at 100yd for a 200yd zero,showing 261" of drop at 1000yd. Methinks someone is full of the proverbial....

Somebody that doesn't fully understand a situation they're describing is not full of anything, they're merely trying to understand and learn...as we all should...

[bigpete]

Haha yep

Often been shown

[animalpest]

If you are genuinely trying to understand learn, then stick to facts.

Embellishing or adding b.s. does not help your cause and adds to the thoughts they are just full of it.

[bigpete]

Above is a ballistic chart based on a Berger 180gn VLD travelling at 2900fps from a 7mm Remington magnum,sighted 1.5" high at 100yd for a 200yd zero,showing 261" of drop at 1000yd. Methinks someone is full of the proverbial....

Somebody that doesn't fully understand a situation they're describing is not full of anything, they're merely trying to understand and learn...as we all should...

He literally said his 7mm rem mag shoots horizontal to 1000.....laws of physics prove him wrong.....

[bladeracer]

Above is a ballistic chart based on a Berger 180gn VLD travelling at 2900fps from a 7mm Remington magnum,sighted 1.5" high at 100yd for a 200yd zero,showing 261" of drop at 1000yd. Methinks someone is full of the proverbial....

Somebody that doesn't fully understand a situation they're describing is not full of anything, they're merely trying to understand and learn...as we all should...

He literally said his 7mm rem mag shoots horizontal to 1000.....laws of physics prove him wrong.....

Yes, because of lack of understanding, not an abundance of bulldust...

[bladeracer]

If you are genuinely trying to understand learn, then stick to facts.

Embellishing or adding b.s. does not help your cause and adds to the thoughts they are just full of it.

When you are describing something you don't fully understand, it is natural to try to equate it to past experiences and things you do understand. This does not always indicate any attempt to embellish or bulls**t anybody, ask anybody in IT support about the crazy theories people have put forward when trying to explain why their computer isn't behaving

[animalpest]

Yes I can understand that people will try to explain something such as computer issues, or firearms.

If the person with the computer said it flew through the air without falling to the ground then you would call b.s.

Bit like someone saying their .243 is the flattest shooting .243 they have seen.

Saying that their rifle shoots dead flat ("horizontal ") to 1000 m is not a case of "not understanding" but a simple case of saying something they have never even tried but suggesting it is the truth.

The poster has been around guns long enough to know better.

[bladeracer]

Yes I can understand that people will try to explain something such as computer issues, or firearms.

If the person with the computer said it flew through the air without falling to the ground then you would call b.s.

Bit like someone saying their .243 is the flattest shooting .243 they have seen.

Saying that their rifle shoots dead flat ("horizontal ") to 1000 m is not a case of "not understanding" but a simple case of saying something they have never even tried but suggesting it is the truth.

The poster has been around guns long enough to know better.

Have you heard of Hans Rudel?
He fervently believed the Stuka never had a dive siren, and he spent more time flying them than anybody that ever lived. If you don't choose to learn how something works then you are always guessing, regardless of how long you spend using the technology.

Assuming everybody is talking bulls**t tells us more your own view of the world than it does the person you are berating. Trying to turn it into an "I'm smarter than you" conversation helps nobody. If you know the subject try helping others understand it, that is far more worthwhile.

[bladeracer]

Rose reminded me of a relevant anecdote.

My stepdaughter (in Waroona) accidentally flicked the rear demister on on a 45C day, and left it on all day. The rear window eventually disintegrated. That may be all that happened in this case also.

[duncan61]

Of course there is a holdover.You are both assigning me a position based on your chosen interpretation of what I meant by horizontal.This is the figures using the ballistic chart at 5 km.5000 -40836.76 766.93 223.09 0.00 0.00 0.00 17.53 147 606 The 17.53 is the time in seconds and the pill is still doing 606fps.Enough to break a back window.I will recap someone was shooting to the East with a 22/250 at crows in trees.Raylenes back window shattered with a small hole on entry and a big hole where it went out.Same back window not 2 different windows.I found a graze on the road that lined up with the holes in the window that was possibly tinted.Wapol turned up and concluded the same as the 3 of us that her back window had been hit by a bullet.Wapol interveiwed the 2 brothers and no charges were laid but they stopped shooting the 22/250 in the air.Thats it.I asked my wife for her version and it is the same as mine.As far as I know she is not using psychotropic drugs.This is a gun forum.I have learned that not many rifles have the ability to shoot more than 5 km.I have had people tell me that high powered rifles will go 20km if shot in the air but I am now finding that not plausible as the Bismarks 16 inch guns could lob a 1 ton projectile up to 14 miles so a pissy little bullet is not going to go that far

[bladeracer]

Of course there is a holdover.You are both assigning me a position based on your chosen interpretation of what I meant by horizontal.This is the figures using the ballistic chart at 5 km.5000 -40836.76 766.93 223.09 0.00 0.00 0.00 17.53 147 606 The 17.53 is the time in seconds and the pill is still doing 606fps.Enough to break a back window.I will recap someone was shooting to the East with a 22/250 at crows in trees.Raylenes back window shattered with a small hole on entry and a big hole where it went out.Same back window not 2 different windows.I found a graze on the road that lined up with the holes in the window that was possibly tinted.Wapol turned up and concluded the same as the 3 of us that her back window had been hit by a bullet.Wapol interveiwed the 2 brothers and no charges were laid but they stopped shooting the 22/250 in the air.Thats it.I asked my wife for her version and it is the same as mine.As far as I know she is not using psychotropic drugs.This is a gun forum.I have learned that not many rifles have the ability to shoot more than 5 km.I have had people tell me that high powered rifles will go 20km if shot in the air but I am now finding that not plausible as the Bismarks 16 inch guns could lob a 1 ton projectile up to 14 miles so a pissy little bullet is not going to go that far

Check how much the drop is at 5000m, 41000 inches is over a kilometer drop. Unless you are on top of a mountain you can probably rule that out. If you are shooting across reasonably level terrain say within 100m altitude, input the zero distance at 3500m and see what the calculator spits out.