Keith wrote:Can you refuse to comply with a police officers order if you know for a fact they are wrong?
I have had problems in the past, & I expect these same problems will continue in the future; Police officers that do not know all of the firearms legislation, officers that are not familiar with a variety of firearms, officers that can't tell a copy from an antique.
I came close to losing my antiques because an officer did not believe they were antiques, even though from the engraving & the obvious look of the pieces they were obviously antiques.
Proof fell to me apparently, he allowed me to keep the antiques providing I could get a registered gunsmith to provide written confirmation. I found one, but he was not willing to put anything in writing. He said he would contact the police, he didn't contact the police. When the police phoned me to make sure I had written confirmation I informed them of what the gunsmith said, they said they had not heard from the gunsmith. So far they have not done anything about this.
It just seems to me that the responsibility should not be on the gun owner, the police assigned to inspections should have the necessary qualifications. In future I think I will just not show the antiques, it would save a lot of hassles.
Keith.
Communism_Is_Cancer wrote:Short answer is yes, it is is lawful to refuse an unlawful direction.
I am not aware of your financial situation but I highly suggest you engage an experienced firearms lawyer and never talk to the police directly but through your lawyer.
Bugman wrote:Communism_Is_Cancer wrote:Short answer is yes, it is is lawful to refuse an unlawful direction.
I am not aware of your financial situation but I highly suggest you engage an experienced firearms lawyer and never talk to the police directly but through your lawyer.
I don't know about QLD...BUT in NSW if a policeman who is carrying out an audit issues a directive, you must comply.
You must have all documentation of the items in question and they must match the documentation they have, AND you should have a copy of the regulations that allow you keep such items in accordance with your issued licence. It is your responsibility. I understand your frustration. To not respond to a police officer who is carrying out the audit is a foolhardy in my opinion.
Bugman wrote:Communism_Is_Cancer wrote:Short answer is yes, it is is lawful to refuse an unlawful direction.
I am not aware of your financial situation but I highly suggest you engage an experienced firearms lawyer and never talk to the police directly but through your lawyer.
I don't know about QLD...BUT in NSW if a policeman who is carrying out an audit issues a directive, you must comply.
You must have all documentation of the items in question and they must match the documentation they have, AND you should have a copy of the regulations that allow you keep such items in accordance with your issued licence. It is your responsibility. I understand your frustration. To not respond to a police officer who is carrying out the audit is a foolhardy in my opinion.
Communism_Is_Cancer wrote:Short answer is yes, it is is lawful to refuse an unlawful direction.
I am not aware of your financial situation but I highly suggest you engage an experienced firearms lawyer and never talk to the police directly but through your lawyer.
bladeracer wrote:Communism_Is_Cancer wrote:Short answer is yes, it is is lawful to refuse an unlawful direction.
I am not aware of your financial situation but I highly suggest you engage an experienced firearms lawyer and never talk to the police directly but through your lawyer.
It may be lawful but is generally ill-advised. Comply with Police on scene, have somebody record the interaction if possible, then take it up afterwards. Arguing with the Officer on scene is too likely to wind up as an ego battle achieving nothing good.
As has been said, the onus to prove a firearm is exempt from the legislation is on you as the possessor. Either keep it out of the interaction entirely or have such proof ready on-hand. I don't understand how your antiques even became an issue, are they laying about the house? Was this an inspection or were they responding to a complaint?
As the officer didn't seize anything it sounds like he extended you more latitude than the law might require if you had no proof they were antiques. If a Police officer honestly believed you had possession of unlicensed firearms I would expect he would probably be required to seize such until you could prove otherwise, I don't know that there is much officer discretion in that situation.
Communism_Is_Cancer wrote:Bugman wrote:Communism_Is_Cancer wrote:Short answer is yes, it is is lawful to refuse an unlawful direction.
I am not aware of your financial situation but I highly suggest you engage an experienced firearms lawyer and never talk to the police directly but through your lawyer.
I don't know about QLD...BUT in NSW if a policeman who is carrying out an audit issues a directive, you must comply.
You must have all documentation of the items in question and they must match the documentation they have, AND you should have a copy of the regulations that allow you keep such items in accordance with your issued licence. It is your responsibility. I understand your frustration. To not respond to a police officer who is carrying out the audit is a foolhardy in my opinion.
If it is a lawful direction then you must comply if it is not then you shouldn't as it would be unlawful. Even in NSW this would be the case. Old mate believes he has been given unlawful directions so seeking legal advise from an expert is far from foolhardy but in my opinion what any law abiding citizen should do. Just because the police say something does not mean one has to follow it as the police are not above the law. Seeking legal advise and getting the lawyer to act as the intermediate protects the citizen from potentially incriminating oneself and is ones legal right to do so.
Communism_Is_Cancer wrote:bladeracer wrote:Communism_Is_Cancer wrote:Short answer is yes, it is is lawful to refuse an unlawful direction.
I am not aware of your financial situation but I highly suggest you engage an experienced firearms lawyer and never talk to the police directly but through your lawyer.
It may be lawful but is generally ill-advised. Comply with Police on scene, have somebody record the interaction if possible, then take it up afterwards. Arguing with the Officer on scene is too likely to wind up as an ego battle achieving nothing good.
As has been said, the onus to prove a firearm is exempt from the legislation is on you as the possessor. Either keep it out of the interaction entirely or have such proof ready on-hand. I don't understand how your antiques even became an issue, are they laying about the house? Was this an inspection or were they responding to a complaint?
As the officer didn't seize anything it sounds like he extended you more latitude than the law might require if you had no proof they were antiques. If a Police officer honestly believed you had possession of unlicensed firearms I would expect he would probably be required to seize such until you could prove otherwise, I don't know that there is much officer discretion in that situation.
I used the word “short answer” because there is a lot of context missing. I never condone breaking the law however I always condone people standing up for themselves in a respectful lawful matter. Bugman makes a good point about keeping copies of the regulations/acts around to use when needed.
I really agree with that. I really like the idea of people researching the laws of the land they are governed by.
bladeracer wrote:Absolutely, and the law is that if you possess an antique firearm you must be able to prove it is an antique when you are asked to. If you choose to ignore your legal responsibility then the law can bite you.
cz515 wrote:Lawyers love one thing and that's money.
While it might be cool to jump on your high horse, and refuse to deal with the cops, but then they are likely to sieze the firearms, and may even go to placing you on custody, depending on how you go.
Anyway my logic is cops like humans are either good or aholes, don't upset them more then necessary as you don't know if they had an ahole client before you or had a fight with their wife making even the good ones into an ahole. And yes like you and I they too can make mistakes, have your proof ready. And not push it as 9 times out of 10 if you are reasonable it will not end up in you needing a lawyer.