Old School accuracy: the Carl Gustav

[Vince24]

Hi guys

So I was doing a ladder test with this Carl Gustav.

Noting the old toy is from... 1899, so a very early Carl Gustav, very very uncommon. The early ones were often produced by Mauser Oberndorf.
It used to be in an ugly green plastick stock for hunting , but I managed to convince his dear owner (my in-law!) to put it back in the original configuration.

IMG_4171 (1).jpg (701.84 KiB) Viewed 6966 times

The parameters of the ladder testing:

- scope: a cheap 3-9 Tasco
- trigger: Tymney
- temperature: 0 - freezing, was shooting with gloves.
- Distance: 100m
- Projectile: Hornady HPBT Match 140gn
- OAL : 3.030 - not even trying to chase the land!
- Case: Igman - got them for nearly nothing, but a very annoying case, barely fits in the chamber despite FLS and trimming,
- Primer: Federal 210
- Powder; AR2209
- Increments: 41.5gn, 42gn, 42.5gn, 42.8gn, 43gn, 43.2gn, 43.5gn
- 4 shots in each group, at 100m

First time shooting this rifle in years.

Here below pictures of the 4-shots groups, i.e. in particular the 42gn, the 42.8gn and the 43gn

IMG_4167.jpg (618.08 KiB) Viewed 6966 times

IMG_4168.jpg (614.98 KiB) Viewed 6966 times

IMG_4166.jpg (610.99 KiB) Viewed 6966 times

I am just amazed by those old riflles.
This one is from 1899

And the last group of 4, the 43gn, is just 1.4cm wide. That's 0.5 MOA!!!

Which modern rifle with a comparable sporter barrel does clearly better?

And this reinforces the importance of doing the ladder test, as some of the powder loads were just really average, between 1 and 2 MOA.

Anyway, was just to share my admiration for the old ladies.

Next stage will be the 10 shot group on the reference target i use for all my rifles.

Have a good one!

[No1Mk3]

Been a fan of the Swede for many years, have several of them in 94, 96 38 & CG63. Sights from stock to diopters to scoped and love shooting them.
PS: I'ts Gustaf with an "f" not a "v"

[northdude]

Would have to be one of my favourite rifles. Got a sporterised obendorf, remember when they were advertised in sporting shooter 30-40 years ago with lynx mounts and a nikko stirling 4x32? I bought one it was my first centerfire and still have it. Actually took it to the range on the weekend for a bit of a blast from the past. Still shoots thumbnail sized 3 shot groups all day long. Im on my second barrel with thia one. Got a full wood m38 cg that I do my service rifle shoots with, love it when I turn up to one and every one else is using lee enfields. Funny how these old things will easily hold their own even today up against the lastest whizz bang newly created fashion cartriges.

[northdude]

They have a really long throat id doubt you could get to the lands. Havnt with my mil ones anyway. I just load so theres 6.5mm of bullet in the case

[in2anity]

I've never seen a Swede that didn't shoot like your group - they are prized artifacts in the bolt-action service rifle shooting world. I have a full length one - it shoots amazingly well, with any 6.5mm handload, including old Taipan pills. We are easily talking 2.5moa 12-shot groups at even 600m+, over the as-issued v-notch sights, provided you are doing your bit...

swede

swede.jpg (358.25 KiB) Viewed 6920 times

You'll have a tough time getting an SMLE or even No4 to shoot like this... #justsayin

[Peterwho]

I have 2 of these 6.5s. One M96 from 1908 (I think) and one M38 from 1943 and they shoot better than I do. I have a Burris 2-7 on the M38 and it does 0.5 moa easily. The M96 has open sights and I don’t see them, at 63 years young, as well as I once did.

[in2anity]

I have 2 of these 6.5s. One M96 from 1908 (I think) and one M38 from 1943 and they shoot better than I do. I have a Burris 2-7 on the M38 and it does 0.5 moa easily. The M96 has open sights and I don’t see them, at 63 years young, as well as I once did.

I simply MUST wear my specs with milsurp dovetails, unlike a aperture target sight. This is because i have bilateral astigmatism, which is naturally remedied by a light limiting aperture, which blocks most of the light hitting the retina. Without my glasses a dovetail is a blur for me also. A dot of white paint on the front sight helps me when using milsurp dovetails - a popular thing to do by the old-timers.

[Peterwho]

I must try this. Thanks for the tip

[dnedative]

You'll have a tough time getting an SMLE or even No4 to shoot like this... #justsayin

Lee Enfield target rifles are like Holden 308's running around Bathurst.
So many people have invested so much time in getting them dialed they have been dragged up well beyond what they should be able to do.
Problem is the people who knew and know what to do are unfortunately either not with us or are no longer young.
Good tuned No4 is a tough gun to beat, I've got a NoIII built in the 60's with all the tricks (bored out nose cap float job, heavy barrel, copper drawes, trigger tuned) and it will shoot 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 with open sights.

Sweedish mausers shoot better than they should due to the cartridge and so do carcanos and Jap arisakas in 6.5 to be honest.
They just work well, its the sweet spot of harmonics for a full stocked rifle with barrel bands.
My ****** M38 carcano is a fantastic rifle at 300m, s**t sights but even with those its far better than you would think

[in2anity]

You'll have a tough time getting an SMLE or even No4 to shoot like this... #justsayin

Lee Enfield target rifles are like Holden 308's running around Bathurst.
So many people have invested so much time in getting them dialed they have been dragged up well beyond what they should be able to do.
Problem is the people who knew and know what to do are unfortunately either not with us or are no longer young.
Good tuned No4 is a tough gun to beat, I've got a NoIII built in the 60's with all the tricks (bored out nose cap float job, heavy barrel, copper drawes, trigger tuned) and it will shoot 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 with open sights.

Sweedish mausers shoot better than they should due to the cartridge and so do carcanos and Jap arisakas in 6.5 to be honest.
They just work well, its the sweet spot of harmonics for a full stocked rifle with barrel bands.
My ****** M38 carcano is a fantastic rifle at 300m, s**t sights but even with those its far better than you would think

Oh yeah absolutely they can be tuned up. T-Bone gets them shooting well. And you still see some really good ones shooting under the MRCA. But our top shooters mostly run No4-762 and No4-556 converts which shoot inherently better than the old 3-Oh.

I ran a savage No4 mk1* for a couple of seasons and it never shot particularly well, particularly from prone mounds when accuracy counts. I have done all kinds of things to it to make it shoot better - and yeah it’s better than it once was. But it doesn’t come close to my beloved m17 which shoots like absolute STINK.

Someone filmed me shooting a good 300m deliberate with my m17, so I made a little video including the marking at end https://youtu.be/GdAIPp2HFOU

I can tell you with certainty no No4 I’ve ever seen shoots like that m17- it’s something else, but heavy…

Long story short, generally once I switched to Mauser actions, things just got easier. Less to worry about.

[Vince24]

And here is a 10 shot group at 100 metres with the 42gn load (and still the Hdy Match 140gn HPBT).

there are actually 8 shots within 3.2cm, that's 1.2 MOA!

10s Hdy 140hpbt 2209 42gn.jpg (585.45 KiB) Viewed 4255 times

Still need to refine the point of impact, but overall, not bad for a 1899 rifle!

Cheers,
Vince

I-know-some-modern-toys-which-would-be-happy-to-do-that

[in2anity]

Yep good stuff Vince - that's the ticket. They can shoot a possible, if you're doing your bit. Will you see that from an average "as-issued" 3-oh? I think not.

[Border_Bloke]

I love the Sweedes, I had a model 38 back in 1986 when they were cheap and starting to flood the surplus market. Great calibre, almost no recoil, crazy accurate even with the iron sites.

[No1_49er]

Oh yes, those old swedes sure can shoot.
This image from a load development session for my M96.
Off the elbows/shoulder at 100 mtr.
50 mtr ISSF target.
Good light, no wind, 70 year old eyes, original/as-issued iron sights.

[in2anity]

i can only see the bottom half of your target 49er

[No1_49er]

That's probably correct.
The image is only of the bottom RHS of an ISSF target. It shows the 5 shot group, some details of the set-up, and a rough representation of what I was seeing on the front sight (post).
Why would I post an image of nothingness? The relevant data only is shown.

[in2anity]

Why would I post an image of nothingness? The relevant data only is shown.

Ok point taken. Failed to notice the "5 shot" alt tag. Presumed you would have gone at least a 10 shot. My mistake.

[Vince24]

So what’s the load by the way?

[No1_49er]

So what’s the load by the way?

Nothing startling.
Lapua brass. Fed 210M primer. Sierra MK 1740. ADI 2206H 32.5gn.
I have no idea what the velocity is - not really interested. I was after a group size - velocity unimportant.

[Vince24]

Thanks!
2206h is the interesting aspect. Many go for slower powders in 6.5x55.

That confirms this is really a wonderful calibre, not fussy at all, shoots well with about anything!!