ADI data for a 140gn pill in 6.5x55

[Vince24]

Hi guys

I got some very cheap Speer hotcor spitzer 140gn in 6.5x55 ($35c!) which I wanted to use for shooting at the military club the 100m distance: 5 shots standing, 5 shots kneeling, 5 shots prone.

So I look into the ADI data for a quick load development, having in mind to use 2208 for minimum recoil and cost. Yes I know 2209 or 2213 are better for 6.5 but I thought that for a military style shoot it would not make a big difference.

My surprise when looking at the ADI data for the 140gn Speer:

ADI gives the same powder load for 2206H and 2208 !?
see below ADI table extracts.

Basically both powders starting at 32.5 and ending at 36gn.
Isn't it surprising or am I missing something?
Then there is a big jump in powder load from 2208 to 2209 and more big jumps for 2213 and 2217.

GRT finds the maximum proposed 2208 load very mild, while it gets more nervous with 44 grains of 2209, sending the warning message when you approach maximum pressure.

140 GR. SPR 2206H.264"3.030" Starting 32.5 grain 2305 fps38100 cup Maximum 35.8 grain 2493 fps45700 cup
140 GR. SPR 2208.264"3.030" Starting 32.5 grain 2312 fps37500 cup Maximum 36.0 grain 2528 fps46000 cup
140 GR. SPR 2209.264"3.030"Starting 39.5 grain 2418 fps38600 cup Maximum 44.0 grain 2617 fps45700 cup
140 GR. SPR 2213SC.264"3.030"Starting 42.5 grain 2382 fps38100cup Maximum 47.0 grain 2586 fps45700 cup
140 GR. SPR 2217.264"3.030"Starting 46.5 grain 2423 fps37600 cup Maximum 51.5 grain (C) 2651 fps46000 cup

According to GRT the recoil goes from 17 joules with the maximum 2209 loan to 12 joules with the maximum 2208 load.
To be compared with the 27 joules of a 58.5gr load of 2209 in my 1903
(another interesting information that GRT provides)


Cheers
Vincent

[bladeracer]

I use ADI's data as ballpark figures rather than factual information.
Just start somewhere in those windows and adjust your load to suit your needs.
I also wouldn't take the GRT data as gospel.

Hi guys

I got some very cheap Speer hotcor spitzer 140gn in 6.5x55 ($35c!) which I wanted to use for shooting at the military club the 100m distance: 5 shots standing, 5 shots kneeling, 5 shots prone.

So I look into the ADI data for a quick load development, having in mind to use 2208 for minimum recoil and cost. Yes I know 2209 or 2213 are better for 6.5 but I thought that for a military style shoot it would not make a big difference.

My surprise when looking at the ADI data for the 140gn Speer:

ADI gives the same powder load for 2206H and 2208 !?
see below ADI table extracts.

Basically both powders starting at 32.5 and ending at 36gn.
Isn't it surprising or am I missing something?
Then there is a big jump in powder load from 2208 to 2209 and more big jumps for 2213 and 2217.

GRT finds the maximum proposed 2208 load very mild, while it gets more nervous with 44 grains of 2209, sending the warning message when you approach maximum pressure.

140 GR. SPR 2206H.264"3.030" Starting 32.5 grain 2305 fps38100 cup Maximum 35.8 grain 2493 fps45700 cup
140 GR. SPR 2208.264"3.030" Starting 32.5 grain 2312 fps37500 cup Maximum 36.0 grain 2528 fps46000 cup
140 GR. SPR 2209.264"3.030"Starting 39.5 grain 2418 fps38600 cup Maximum 44.0 grain 2617 fps45700 cup
140 GR. SPR 2213SC.264"3.030"Starting 42.5 grain 2382 fps38100cup Maximum 47.0 grain 2586 fps45700 cup
140 GR. SPR 2217.264"3.030"Starting 46.5 grain 2423 fps37600 cup Maximum 51.5 grain (C) 2651 fps46000 cup

According to GRT the recoil goes from 17 joules with the maximum 2209 loan to 12 joules with the maximum 2208 load.
To be compared with the 27 joules of a 58.5gr load of 2209 in my 1903
(another interesting information that GRT provides)


Cheers
Vincent

[northdude]

I use the min adi load for 2208 in my x55 for the service rifle shoots I do. Im using varget which is the same stuff and 140 hot cores. Goes well

[Oldbloke]

Data is correct.
Yep, start low work up.

tempFileForShare_20221107-094949_21678781830830.jpg (203.92 KiB) Viewed 6604 times

[SCJ429]

I was loading for a modern bolt action chambered in the Swede and I was up to six grains over the load data max without any pressure signs. Data is very conservative because of some of the older rifle in this calibre. If you are looking for a mild load you probably will not push past the advertised max load.

[LawrenceA]

Dunno what the gun is but my Tikka loves 2208.
The load is over the ADI max so I wont print it but I am getting 0.22 moa and that is 5 shots at 100 with Nosler competitions parked as far out as possible.
Basically it is worth investigating 2208

[bigrich]

Dunno what the gun is but my Tikka loves 2208.
The load is over the ADI max so I wont print it but I am getting 0.22 moa and that is 5 shots at 100 with Nosler competitions parked as far out as possible.
Basically it is worth investigating 2208

That’s interesting. I’m only getting so-so groups out of my 6.5 tikka using 2209. I might have to investigate 2208

[Oldbloke]

AR2208 is definitely worth a look.

If you look at the ADI data.
Both AR2208 & AR2206H are able to be used in [u]most[u] chamberings. if you want to use just 1 powder for everything there is a good chabce one of them will do the trick.
You won't get perfect /optimum results, but cheaper less waste no mistakes using wrong powder.

I use it in 233 & 30.06

[Oldbloke]

AR2208 is definitely worth a look.

If you look at the ADI data.
Both AR2208 & AR2206H are able to be used in most chamberings. if you want to use just 1 powder for everything there is a good chabce one of them will do the trick.
You won't get perfect /optimum results, but cheaper less waste no mistakes using wrong powder.

I use it in 233 & 30.06

[Billo]

I thought this might be an appropriate place to post this picture I took today, pretty sure its a Remington in 6.5x55

[bladeracer]

I thought this might be an appropriate place to post this picture I took today, pretty sure its a Remington in 6.5x55

It's a Swedish Mauser, not a Remington.

[Billo]

Nah Bladeracer I'm pretty sure its a Remington cause broken bolt handle

[snag]

No mate, that is a Swedish mauser bolt 100%.

[Billo]

OK you fella's might be right, Yes obviously its a Swede !! Anyway case is still stuck in the action and I bought it, PTA in a week or so and then the real fun begins....

Im thinking some hydraulic oil and some heat, then whack the bolt stump to get the action open ?? will try and find out what caused the bolt lock up....

Sorry for the thread derailment

[northdude]

Never seen that before

[No1_49er]

Never seen that before

What? A thread derailment, or a broken bolt?

[in2anity]

you sure the lugs haven't let go on it?

[Billo]

you sure the lugs haven't let go on it?

Thats something Ill find out shortly, either way I can wreck it and recoup my money just on the stainless barrel alone, worth the risk

[Vince24]

This is all well and good, but that does not answer the fundamental question I wanted to raise:

Is it logic to have the same powder loads in 2208 and 2206H?

I am still a newbee in handloading, but normally, for a given projectile, the slower the powder, the more you can put?

For that broken Swede, I would love to know what kind of load it took to get to that outcome...

[bladeracer]

This is all well and good, but that does not answer the fundamental question I wanted to raise:

Is it logic to have the same powder loads in 2208 and 2206H?

I am still a newbee in handloading, but normally, for a given projectile, the slower the powder, the more you can put?

For that broken Swede, I would love to know what kind of load it took to get to that outcome...

They can be close, particularly with those two powders as they are quiet close in burn rate. Have a look at other cartridge load data. I would expect to use just a little more AR2208 than AR2206H, but it wouldn't be particularly odd to end up with the same charge for both. If you were working up to maximum loads in one rifle with both powders behind the same bullet in the same brass I would expect you'd see pressure signs a little sooner with the AR2206H, but you might not, depending on the bullet weight. In the .223 load data there's generally about one grain more AR2208 than AR2206H, in the .243 90gn and .30-06 150gn data the loads are identical.

I don't think it's correct to say that slower powders will always have larger charge weights but it probably tends that way if the slower powders are significantly denser.

A quick look at the website.
.223 with 35gn Nosler BT
AR2207 is 21.7gn
AR2219 is 25.8gn
BM2 is 27.2gn
BM8208 is 28.0gn
AR2206H is 27.0gn
AR2208 is 28gn
BM2 and AR2206H have similar max load data, as do AR2208 and BM8208.

.223 with 55gn jacketed bullet
AR2207 is 21gn
AR2219 is 23.0gn
BM2 is 25.6gn
BM8208 is 25.3gn
AR2206H is 26.0gn
AR2208 is 27.5gn

.223 with the 80gn SMK
AR2219 is 22.0gn
BM2 is 22.5gn
BM8208 is 21.0gn
AR2206H is 24.0gn
AR2208 is 25.0gn

.243 90gn
AR2206H is 36.5gn
AR2208 is 36.5gn
AR2209 is 44.5gn
AR2213SC is 48.0gn

6.5 Creedmoor 142gn SMK
BM8208 is 33.5gn
AR2206H is 34.5gn
AR2208 is 36.3gn
AR2209 is 41.5gn

.30-06 150gn Nosler BT
BM2 is 49.5gn
BM8208 is 50.0gn
AR2206H is 51.0gn
AR2208 is 51.0gn
AR2209 is 62.0gn

[SCJ429]

This is all well and good, but that does not answer the fundamental question I wanted to raise:

Is it logic to have the same powder loads in 2208 and 2206H?

I am still a newbee in handloading, but normally, for a given projectile, the slower the powder, the more you can put?

For that broken Swede, I would love to know what kind of load it took to get to that outcome...

There could be all sorts of reasons that caused this bolt to be stuck, many of them not related to the powder charge.

slower powders are more bulky and fill your cases faster, stick powders also take up more room than ball powders that also have more surface area and burn faster. Best powder for your case is one that gives you the speed you want while filling the case over 95%. Some reloaders want to use less powder and save a little money so they use smaller amounts of faster powders. This is great if you still get the accuracy you want but these type of loads are generally not the most accurate.

[deye243]

This is all well and good, but that does not answer the fundamental question I wanted to raise:

Is it logic to have the same powder loads in 2208 and 2206H?

I am still a newbee in handloading, but normally, for a given projectile, the slower the powder, the more you can put?

For that broken Swede, I would love to know what kind of load it took to get to that outcome...

There could be all sorts of reasons that caused this bolt to be stuck, many of them not related to the powder charge.

slower powders are more bulky and fill your cases faster, stick powders also take up more room than ball powders that also have more surface area and burn faster. Best powder for your case is one that gives you the speed you want while filling the case over 95%. Some reloaders want to use less powder and save a little money so they use smaller amounts of faster powders. This is great if you still get the accuracy you want but these type of loads are generally not the most accurate.

Not to mention excessive pressure for the same speed excessive throat erosion overtime of course I think most people in reloading know that when choosing a powder you choose one that best fills the case to get the velocity you want .

[SCJ429]

I get the impression from reading this forum that some reloaders want to use 30 grains of a faster powder rather than 40 grains of the ideal powder to save money. I wonder if those same guys run into accuracy problems caused by inconsistent burns and spikes in pressure. Slower powders are kinder on throats as you mentioned Deye243.

[bladeracer]

I get the impression from reading this forum that some reloaders want to use 30 grains of a faster powder rather than 40 grains of the ideal powder to save money. I wonder if those same guys run into accuracy problems caused by inconsistent burns and spikes in pressure. Slower powders are kinder on throats as you mentioned Deye243.

I simply start with AR2206H, I use a heap of it so I have heaps of it on hand. If I can't get a load to shoot then I'll try other powders. It's not about money as much as the versatility of the powder. If you only load one cartridge then choose the powder best suited to that cartridge, if you load dozens of different cartridges then use the most versatile powders.

[deye243]

I get the impression from reading this forum that some reloaders want to use 30 grains of a faster powder rather than 40 grains of the ideal powder to save money. I wonder if those same guys run into accuracy problems caused by inconsistent burns and spikes in pressure. Slower powders are kinder on throats as you mentioned Deye243.

[in2anity]

I simply start with AR2206H, I use a heap of it so I have heaps of it on hand. If I can't get a load to shoot then I'll try other powders. It's not about money as much as the versatility of the powder. If you only load one cartridge then choose the powder best suited to that cartridge, if you load dozens of different cartridges then use the most versatile powders.

I'm with you Blade. If you are turning over rifles, versatile powders like 06H is a no brainer. Just reload and go shoot. For offhand and sitting positions, it will make little difference whether you use the "optimal" powder vs slightly faster burning. The error will overwhelmingly stem from the shooter, whereby powder choice is kinda irrelevant - so long as it works O-K. That's literally 2/3rds of Service Rifle competition. An example; I use AR2207+125gr out of my Spaniard-762 for offhand and sitting, but then switch to AR2208+155gr for 300m prone... where accuracy starts to get important. Horses for courses.

The other factor is recoil impulse - a faster powder will always "feel" like less recoil because of the fast burn. Something that can only be observed with much experience on a lightweight heavy recoiler. I literally choose AR2206H in my 303 because I prefer the "feel" of it over longer recoil impulse of the "optimal" AR2209. And with improved comfort and reduced recoil, ultimately comes better Service Rifle scores. It's all tradeoffs - one should resist the urge to generalize.

We don't all shoot glassed bipod.

[LawrenceA]

Nah Bladeracer I'm pretty sure its a Remington cause broken bolt handle

For what its worth I get it.
Perhaps its where Remington git the 788 design from?

[LawrenceA]

OK you fella's might be right, Yes obviously its a Swede !! Anyway case is still stuck in the action and I bought it, PTA in a week or so and then the real fun begins....

Im thinking some hydraulic oil and some heat, then whack the bolt stump to get the action open ?? will try and find out what caused the bolt lock up....

Sorry for the thread derailment

Rather than whack the bolt stump. as it is the case that is stuck, may I suggest a rod down the barrel? Wont be working against the extractor claw then.
Also brass shrinks from cold faster than steel so maybe if heat does not work try the freezer

[bladeracer]

I use AR2206H in .30-06, although with the 178gn BTHP I use 57gn of AR2209 because it does shoot more consistently. My neighbour wanted to reload for his .30-06 only with 180gn bullets with no interest in loading for anything else, so I got him to get AR2209 as a better choice for that specific usage. The loads I was shooting last week in the M1903-A3 though were 15gn Trailboss loads with the .311" Berry's 123gn Copper-Plated bullet at 1700fps. Very accurate, extremely cheap, great fun to shoot.

I'm with you Blade. If you are turning over rifles, versatile powders like 06H is a no brainer. Just reload and go shoot. For offhand and sitting positions, it will make little difference whether you use the "optimal" powder vs slightly faster burning. The error will overwhelmingly stem from the shooter, whereby powder choice is kinda irrelevant - so long as it works O-K. That's literally 2/3rds of Service Rifle competition. An example; I use AR2207+125gr out of my Spaniard-762 for offhand and sitting, but then switch to AR2208+155gr for 300m prone... where accuracy starts to get important. Horses for courses.

The other factor is recoil impulse - a faster powder will always "feel" like less recoil because of the fast burn. Something that can only be observed with much experience on a light recoiler. I literally choose AR2206H in my 303 because I prefer the "feel" of it over longer recoil impulse of the "optimal" AR2209. And with improved comfort and reduced recoil, ultimately comes better Service Rifle scores. It's all tradeoffs - one should resist the urge to generalize.

We don't all shoot glassed bipod.

[in2anity]

I use AR2206H in .30-06, although with the 178gn BTHP I use 57gn of AR2209 because it does shoot more consistently. My neighbour wanted to reload for his .30-06 only with 180gn bullets with no interest in loading for anything else, so I got him to get AR2209 as a better choice for that specific usage.]

An obvious choice for shooting 30-06 groups, especially if mainly shot with a rest or perhaps prone slung TR style. But say hypothetically the rifle only ever shot from the standing offhand position, over battle sights, at modest ranges - a full case of 09 is just wasteful and painful. 1.5moa vs 2.5moa will be pretty meaningless, if you switched to a "sub-optimal" powder.