Trapping, hunting dogs, the argument continues.

[Oldbloke]

I couldn't find the thread I was looking for. So, starting a new one.


Here is another ABC report and sounds like it will be on the 7.30 report tonight.

The usual arguments about trapping & poison being cruel and sheep farmers needing them controlled. And of course hybridisation.


Granddadbushy & another member who I can't remember were the brains trust on this subject. Unfortunately one deleted himself and pretty sure Grandadbushy passed away about a year ago. (good bloke)


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-11-15/ ... c_news_web

There are links to other media reports at the bottom of that page if interested.

[JohnV]

Truth is you need all the methods to control wild dogs . For the casual hunter who only turns up now and again there is a lot of luck involved in seeing any wild dogs to take a shot at . For the farmer who is out in the paddock on a regular basis the odds of seeing them is much higher . Dogs are cunning and move about in a pattern and seeing them today might mean you won't see them again in that exact area for weeks or longer . It can be very time consuming and expensive for a casual hunter to go after wild dogs specifically on a regular basis when compared to hunting , say foxes or pigs in an area that has a good population .
I once spent over $300 to get one single wild dog that was killing stock on a friends place in fuel & food over about 3 months .
It was chasing stock on steep hillsides in wet weather and the cows were falling into the ravines and dying . I think it knew exactly what it was doing . I waited up all night over numerous dead cows and just as I was about to give up I saw him at the carcass , game over . I had to help the farmer because he had let me onto his property many times in the past .
Trapping and poisoning are essential tools in controlling wild dogs , shooting has it's place but it's not as efficient over the longer period . If you live and work on a property and your out shooting all the time then shooting becomes more efficient .
The image is from a tracking collar on a wild dog bitch . You can see the circular movements looking for prey . Where the tracks cross over is likely where the den is or other dogs dens .

[animalpest]

It will always be controversial, not just baiting and trapping, but for some it whether we should be doing it at all.

For many people, the idea of using foot-hold traps is terrible and they are appalled. The reality is that in most circumstances, a combination of all three methods is best to achieve the most effective and efficient result. And the result, the objective, is to reduce attacks from wild dogs/dingoes to near zero. In some areas, the idea is to reduce dog numbers to the point where they dont kill or maim livestock, a single dog in sheep country can cause absolute havoc.

But it needs to be done.

[6mm Remington]

Check out a bloke named Clark McGhie. He has some very educational content on his you tube channel.

[on_one_wheel]

Do thise that argue it's cruel have a solution or just complaints?

[bladeracer]

I'm on a couple of dingo pages on FB - I love dingoes myself. These people pretty much want all dog shooting stopped as virtually all are now crossed dingoes. I think that's ludicrous. The idea of conservation is to protect the original species, not everything that's been crossbred from it. I agree it can be difficult to determine whether a dog might not be a pure dingo, in which case I suggest not shooting it at all, much like duck shooting. But lots of wild dogs are obviously not pure dingoes and need to be shot out entirely. They don't seem to fathom that if we could get rid of almost all the wild dogs nobody would have any genuine issue with true dingoes at all.

I can't condone poisoning at all, it's far too risky and not at all humane. We caused the issue so we need to fix it, but not at the expense of the animals' welfare. Shooting is the most humane way to kill animals. Yes, it can become a full-time job for a landowner but there are many thousands of shooters in every corner of the country that have nowhere to shoot. We just need to build an effective way to put them in touch with the landowners. Many shooters would very likely be happy to pay to shoot pest animals on properties. It just needs to be organised. SSAA's Farmer Assist was a stab at it but it doesn't seem to have been effective to any measurable degree at all.

If I've got a week off work coming up and want to spend a week camping, shooting and hunting somewhere, I should be able to jump on a webpage or forum, see what's around the area, send off some emails and get some responses - it shouldn't be any more difficult than that in my opinion. Getting shooters travelling out to the bush instead of going to their local range also helps the economic communities in those areas.

[Oldbloke]

Do these that argue it's cruel have a solution or just complaints?

Fuk no.

[Oldbloke]

Personally I don't like poisoning either.
Yep, governments keep kicking shooters off crown land when we should be considered a resource. Problem is about 5-10% don't do the right thing and stuff it for everyone.
SSAA's Farmer Assist, I get the impression you need to marry into the club.



I agree with Johnv.
It's specialised and expect to put in a lot of time to shoot a dog.

[Die Judicii]

So far as poisoning is concerned, to get the best results from that alone, baiting/poisoning should only be done one year/season out of 3 or 5
Due mainly to savvy bitches training pups not to go near baits.
As opposed to most councils that seem to push baiting every year.

Couple baiting up with trapping and shooting, and you end up with reasonably good control.
And with the advent of newer and better equipment available,, the odds of achieving even more control can be turned around.

The biggest advance in preventing stock losses/attacks in recent years is of course "exclusion fencing",,,,, costly in the short term but a very
wise choice in the long term.

I have (in my stomping grounds) worked out that on average I can go out all night, (from dusk till dawn) every night, for just on a fortnight and in that time
see or shoot one dog. (average)
This has proven to be very effective on 3 properties that I regularly service,,, and they have not had a single attack or loss from dogs in nearly 3 years.

To be successful in hunting the dingo or feral dogs, you must learn their local traits, and above all, think like a dog.
Other than that,,, all the usual tricks of hunting must also be employed.
However, the most useful thing of all, is to put in the hard yards,, and have an awful lot of patience.

The black and white dog was a bitch that killed over 60 goats in less than a month,,, and had eight pups inside her.
The pure looking dingo on the log was also a bitch,,, and had killed in excess of 200 ewes and lambs within a year prior to me being asked to hunt
her down.
It took me 3 weeks of almost every night in a row before I finally ceased her activities.
The big male pure looking dingo hanging off my ute,,, I shot two nights after the property owner said to me that he saw it late one afternoon chasing cattle.

I think that in this area at least,,,, that due to a combination of all the aforesaid, the dog attack days are getting shorter.
Seems at the moment can only upload one pic per post. The rest will follow.

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[animalpest]

I worked it out on one job (over 12 months) that trapping was 13 times more efficient than shooting foxes and cats. I doubt it is any less for dogs and more likely much higher although I don't have the data at the moment. Bottom line is that in most cases trapping and baiting is far more efficient than shooting by a long way.

There is nothing stopping farmers from getting shooters out there now. Except the shooters themselves. Or at least some of them.

The problem is that you can literally spend days and days driving around (or walking, sitting) and see bugger all. A trap covers the ground 24/7

Poisoning, like trapping is a necessary part of the solution. Like it or not.

[brinny]

To those in the cities, its always going to be one sided....uneducated and biased in their opinion....mainly because the damage the dogs do doesnt effect them.....all they see is dogs being destroyed for no reason at all.....
This is just another wedge between rural and urban.....
By large, urban people have NFI what rural people go through and what they put up with.....nor do they really care.....
Reminds me of an instance some time ago in my local area where an urban mother took her kids for a drive around the country roads and what she saw horrified her....so much so that she wrote a letter to the local paper stating how horrified she was that shooters had been out driving around the country roads shooting all the kangaroos and leaving them lay beside the roads where they fell.....I mean seriously?????.....
Most on here that have had anything to do with shooting or trapping wild dogs will know that they are not an easy target and are one of the most cunning of animals to target.....
The amount of nights that i have sat out all night on properties that had been hit by dogs and not seen any is staggering....yet the evidence of them being there is laying out in the farmers paddocks torn to pieces in numbers.....
It really is hit and miss.....some nights i have seen packs....more often than not i dont see one.....
Its one of the most satisfying times when a problem dog is taken out of the system.....
One of the farmers whos property i shoot on told me that if Labor gets back in, they have plans to ban all wild dog trapping and shooting and class them all as dingoes and place them as a protected species......Any farmer that has lost stock due to dog attacks can claim their losses to a government dept. for compensation......Wonder how long that will last.....Another reason to hope that Labor doesnt get re elected.......

[Die Judicii]

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[on_one_wheel]

One of my jobs many moons ago was patrolling and maintaining a section of the dog fence, we employed all methods to keep the dogs under control including participating in the development of "new technology" (at the time) specialist electric dog fence.

Baiting was by far the most effective, followed by trapping, trapping took lots of careful preparation, one trace of human scent and they wouldn't go near it (in hindsight we weren't great at that), we'd shoot dogs if we spotted them by chance, rarely actively hunted dogs unless they'd become problematic, It's just too time consuming.

I wonder if anyone has been working on any smart technology to destroy dogs, like devices that play on dogs curiosities and abilities that whack em with a jab of something and can discern between target species and non target?

[brinny]

I wonder if anyone has been working on any smart technology to destroy dogs, like devices that play on dogs curiosities and abilities that whack em with a jab of something and can discern between target species and non target?

\

When Peter Garret was environmental minister, he came up with an award winning idea.....
He suggested just trap all the male dogs, desex them so they cant mate and let them go......that way the dogs cant breed and eventually die out ....after 20 years or so.......wonder why that idea didnt catch on?????

[Die Judicii]

I wonder if anyone has been working on any smart technology to destroy dogs, like devices that play on dogs curiosities and abilities that whack em with a jab of something and can discern between target species and non target?

Yes,,,,,,,, there is.
For the life of me I can't think of the company name,, but has been out for approx 18 months that I know of.
As I understand it from when they emailed me (since deleted) it is a loaded device that is anchored to the ground and has some form of bait/attractant that will only go off when it's pulled/tugged hard enough,,, ie: a dog trying to get it.
When that happens the poison is then sprayed/squirted directly into their mouth.
It was claimed that other animals could not/would not tug at it hard enough to set it off.
Therefore being very selective.

Maybe AP knows of it in more detail ????

[Blr243]

Canid pest ejector

[MtnMan]

So if they protect dingoes/wild dogs then even more exclusion fencing will be erected.

The time will come when the Greenies will whinge about exclusion fencing and the effect it has on native animal movements.

Wife and I saw the 7:30 dingo article. We flew from Darwin into Brisbane yesterday and looking down upon the expanse of urban sprawl I said to my wife, "I wonder how many dingoes and other wildlife have been displaced by all this?"

Urban encroachment is OK though.

[Die Judicii]

So if they protect dingoes/wild dogs then even more exclusion fencing will be erected.

The time will come when the Greenies will whinge about exclusion fencing and the effect it has on native animal movements.

Wife and I saw the 7:30 dingo article. We flew from Darwin into Brisbane yesterday and looking down upon the expanse of urban sprawl I said to my wife, "I wonder how many dingoes and other wildlife have been displaced by all this?"

Urban encroachment is OK though.

They will probably finish up living and breeding in the urban areas,,,, just like the coyotes are all ready doing in USA
There is apparently one big "park" in one of their cities where an extensive pack of them live and breed permanently.
(I just can't remember the name of the city or the Park)

[animalpest]

I wonder if anyone has been working on any smart technology to destroy dogs, like devices that play on dogs curiosities and abilities that whack em with a jab of something and can discern between target species and non target?

Yes,,,,,,,, there is.
For the life of me I can't think of the company name,, but has been out for approx 18 months that I know of.
As I understand it from when they emailed me (since deleted) it is a loaded device that is anchored to the ground and has some form of bait/attractant that will only go off when it's pulled/tugged hard enough,,, ie: a dog trying to get it.
When that happens the poison is then sprayed/squirted directly into their mouth.
It was claimed that other animals could not/would not tug at it hard enough to set it off.
Therefore being very selective.

Maybe AP knows of it in more detail ????

Canid Pest Ejectors. CPE's have a head that has dried meat on it. When the canid pulls on that, it triggers a small plastic container with 1080 to squirt into the animals mouth. As it needs to be pulled upwards, its only dogs and foxes that mostly set it off.

We have tried them on quite a few different jobs - and there has also been recent research - they achieve pretty poor results compared to other methods. But CPE's are much safer than standard baits because you always know were the poison is to recover it .

[bluehorse]

Hello and this is a topic that needs addressing . With so much rain over the last recent times ferals are multiplying fast . I was never a fan of 1080 poison . I lost some dogs to it too . Anyway after a purge some 40 odd years ago I was mustering on a not so small place and believe me it was a lonely time .no wildlife or birds except vegetarian types . The wedgies were absent ,butcher birds even magpies . 1080 does notstop with target species . For feral dogs cats pigs a bullet is final and it does not, go thru the food chain .
My old mate who was a mentor and a large property owner taught me about ferals and trapping poisoning etc , He used to put strichnine on the jaws of his traps because the animals lick their wounds when caught in the jaws so then it is final instead of the dog or fox chewing its leg off to get free . Isnt my story but its common talk amongst old timers very much my senior .
I have older extended familywho told me manyyarns about croc shooting and koala shooting before they became protected . Be that as itmay but it happened .
40 odd years ago I drove with my spotlight on pointing into the bush beside amain road . The animal eye were like xmas decorations everywhere and up trees or large shrubs too . It was an eye oper for me as I thought I knew a bit about the bush . !! Feral cats everywhere !! One bloke who I shot into his roo works tried to conjure up a market for cat skins and to get local governments interested in bounties as for feral pigs and dogs . To myknowledge nothing came of it .
Then we had watermelons and greenies from California and Russia trying toshut down the roo industry . What the hell would they know about our industry .
Fast forward to the present and ferals are getting out of control . City based know alls want to dominate .our feral control measure and gun laws ,.
What the f----- would they know about real issues .
Gun laws have not stopped murders or the worstcases of domestic violence ,.
I always carried firearms in my vehicles before gun laws came in ,. And Iwould bowl feral dogs on sight and pigs too butthey are not so easy to despatch without dedicated ammunition .243 with 70 to 75 gn HP or spitser were onlygood for well placed shots . I thought waste of time much over 100 metres . I was shooting roos so I loaded accordingly . Older 303-25 with 87 gn factory. reloads claimed many pigs and dogs .
Today the battle to control ferals is just uphill . Gun control laws are so silly for bushmen .. Wild pigs and dogs dont say go hame and unlock your safe and find the right bolt and ammunition . I will await your return .LOL . If u spot 1 then quite often 10 to 15seconds is the time span fefore theydecamp .
I was driving a mud truck in radius around the Isis mill and saw manyferal dogs . They did notstand on ceremony but were on the run if I pulled up ,. Certainly not domestic dogs . Also I took photos of dingoes on a property close to town .very close to hobby farms. A bitch had whelped I think and nobodywas much interested ..
This is todays attitude . So what ?? The ringers of yesterday are gone and todays generation are used to present gun laws . The coppers are indoctrinated about how useful gun laws are . I see current gun laws surrounding bolt action rifles such as 4 and 5 shotrepeaters plain ridiculous if the authorities want to control ferals . Governments aretrying to wear 3 hats in this issue . Theydeny national parks are breeding grounds for ferals and therefore it is treated like governments own the game and ferals similar to OLD England where onlychosen few could shoot or hunt the Kings deer. !!!
Back in the 70s the greenies and conservationalist carried on a treat that all roos ,walleroos wallibies Reds Blues would be exterminated . What alot of HOT COCK !! Truth was proshooters needs acertain tally to be worhtwhile to shoot .. And in truth by shooting out mature bucks then younger bucks took their place and were better breeders so birthrates could have possibly increased . BUT fertility and breeding habits alone dont deternine populations of roos .
Better water supplies and better food supplies play a huge roll for all ferals . and today ferals are getting out of control yet gun laws are never ammended . Some country citizen of my generation were literate enough to work out their pay and read some of their mail . Filling out a PTA is beyond many people so they are then denied gun ownership although many. are excellent bushmen and know the habits of ferals .
It is time for TRUE BLUE AUSSIES to give their local members a message about ourpresent gun laws . CITY based people have pistols and rifles for pleasure and recreation . People in the bush are totally different .
It also gets harder to obtain ammo supplies as theywill not transport powder or primers . Is like the problem of getting day old chickens . . Society and the city have turned their backs on the bush . It is now getting like 2 different countries . The problem is not just gun laws or laws about ferals its an Attitude problem of those who consider they are Elite and should rule . OR those who believe that they have all of the answers and live city based maybe visiting country once every blue moon for a photo shoot !!!
I am 72 now so it is not like I am a Johnny come lately .
The older blokes I knew who loved our country and returned home after the wars would be rolling and kicking in their graves to see whatis being done.
Ask that old fella who wears the big hat way .up in the North Of Queensland his views !!!
I apologise if u are bored but all of this is very relevant . What sort of place are we leaving our next generations ?? so also take all of your rubbish home too and dont leave it lying around the country .
For the record I am not an anarchist or anti anything but some things need addressing NOW .

[bluehorse]

I dont agree with poisoning with any poisons I know of because it goes into the food chain so innocent bystandersget caught in the crossfire . That is to say the food chain is a very long chain and so much that we dont think of can be affected .
This doesnt mean I am right or wrong in my views . I have been in country that poisonswere used in and it is a very lonely place .
Do we need to kill all of meateating birdlife too by using the likes of 1080.
It is the victim whose corpse is eaten that passes it on further . I dont know how far it would go but I think itcould get into native fish too.

[animalpest]

Jeez some people are ignorant on the effects and fate of poisons in the environment.

But it doesn't stop them expressing opinions to show their ignorance. Hey, don't let the facts get in the way

[on_one_wheel]

I dont agree with poisoning with any poisons I know of because it goes into the food chain so innocent bystandersget caught in the crossfire . That is to say the food chain is a very long chain and so much that we dont think of can be affected .
This doesnt mean I am right or wrong in my views . I have been in country that poisonswere used in and it is a very lonely place .
Do we need to kill all of meateating birdlife too by using the likes of 1080.
It is the victim whose corpse is eaten that passes it on further . I dont know how far it would go but I think itcould get into native fish too.

I'm not sure all the fuss about 1080 is all it's drummed up to be.

1080 is mostly metabolised by the animal that eats it, very minimal levels remain in the carcass, as for non target species, (bykill) application rates are much lower than they were historically.
Technology and procedures has also improved things substantially.

[JohnV]

I worked it out on one job (over 12 months) that trapping was 13 times more efficient than shooting foxes and cats. I doubt it is any less for dogs and more likely much higher although I don't have the data at the moment. Bottom line is that in most cases trapping and baiting is far more efficient than shooting by a long way.

There is nothing stopping farmers from getting shooters out there now. Except the shooters themselves. Or at least some of them.

The problem is that you can literally spend days and days driving around (or walking, sitting) and see bugger all. A trap covers the ground 24/7

Poisoning, like trapping is a necessary part of the solution. Like it or not.

I would not agree on the foxes . Spotlighting foxes when you know what you are doing can be very efficient and less work than laying traps . In the good old days in sheep country I often shot 15 to 20 foxes a night . During a draught West of Macquarie Marshes one night I had 5 foxes come to the whistle at the same time . Had me a bit perplexed as to which one to take first but I got two before the others skedaddled .

[Die Judicii]

The problem is that you can literally spend days and days driving around (or walking, sitting) and see bugger all. A trap covers the ground 24/7

Yep, granted that a trap is "on duty" 24/7 ,,,,,,,,,,, but it is a bit like the old fundraiser at country shows.
ie: buying a ticket or tickets that correspond to a marked area/s on an oval whereupon a cow or steer is then released.
If the cow sh!ts on your allotted patch you win.
But,,,,,, what are the odds of a dog stepping on your trap ??

Regardless of how cunning and how well placed the trap setter is in his work,,,, it is still fairly small odds of catching the dog.

[animalpest]

And therein is the issue for the inexperienced. Setting the trap in the right place seems difficult but when you get to understand how animals move (and why) across the landscape, then it makes trapping much more effective and efficient.

When we were doing that job on foxes and cats on a station, we could set all the traps in 2-3 days and efficiency compared to shooting was way better.

[bladeracer]

And therein is the issue for the inexperienced. Setting the trap in the right place seems difficult but when you get to understand how animals move (and why) across the landscape, then it makes trapping much more effective and efficient.

When we were doing that job on foxes and cats on a station, we could set all the traps in 2-3 days and efficiency compared to shooting was way better.

If it takes days to set them how long does it take to inspect them? I mean, how long are the animals stuck in the traps before despatch?

[animalpest]

It took 3 days to get 62-64 traps out.
If there is strychnine on the trap (as in WA), then trap check can be a week or more. If no strychnine, traps are checked daily.

In a recent program in the south of the State, we averaged 15 traps set per day. The going was a lot tougher with the vehicles in first gear all the way.

[bladeracer]

It took 3 days to get 62-64 traps out.
If there is strychnine on the trap (as in WA), then trap check can be a week or more. If no strychnine, traps are checked daily.

In a recent program in the south of the State, we averaged 15 traps set per day. The going was a lot tougher with the vehicles in first gear all the way.

It sounds pretty effective then, but surely there must be hundreds of hunters that would love to get out in the boonies to shoot these things for free? Some would probably even pay the landowners to do some shooting.

[Oldbloke]

It took 3 days to get 62-64 traps out.
If there is strychnine on the trap (as in WA), then trap check can be a week or more. If no strychnine, traps are checked daily.

In a recent program in the south of the State, we averaged 15 traps set per day. The going was a lot tougher with the vehicles in first gear all the way.

It sounds pretty effective then, but surely there must be hundreds of hunters that would love to get out in the boonies to shoot these things for free? Some would probably even pay the landowners to do some shooting.

Got my doubts many would have the time, skill & dedication to be very effective. Only a small % is my guess.
Oops, and best you live in the area.