VicPol "loses" 60,000 rounds of ammunition.

[Oldbloke]

Yep, that's my point.
All SSAA does is operate Ranges. Sad to say nothing in relation to helping shooters of changing/lobbying for better laws.

Back tracking now are we, before you said they do nothing to help shooters : now your admitting they do.


I guess the NSC are lucky to have people like you to give them money.

1.You need to learn to read.
2.Cearly you are just looking for an argument
3.As usual, you contribute nothing that is meaningful.
5. Happy to help the NSC, unlike some who are more focused on knocking those that wish to assist LAFAOs.
6. Go back to your station. Discussions behind the scenes are clear. Your not wanted here.

[Fionn]

1.You need to learn to read.
2.Cearly you are just looking for an argument
3.As usual, you contribute nothing that is meaningful.
5. Happy to help the NSC, unlike some who are more focused on knocking those that wish to assist LAFAOs.
6. Go back to your station. Discussions behind the scenes are clear. Your not wanted here.

1. OK, I read all your reply's to me, about the SSAA and here they are

I like it when firearm owners knock the NSC. They look silly. In all my years, they gave by far been the most active in helping/defending firearm owners. SSAA, is a laughing stock.

Pls don't verbal me. NSC has done in 2-3 years what the SSAA and couple of others have done in 30 years.
I was a SSAA member for 26 years. I don't recall them ever publishing in their mags what they did to help shooters.
It was always "behind the scenes". Code for doing SFA

You must be blind.
SSAA does SFA. Just collects range fees.
SSAA died when Ted Drane died
NSA often goes into bat for shooters.

No, show me what SSAA has done.
Like I said in 26 years....zero.
Just go to the NSC Web site, they are doing stuff.

Its pretty clear you were claiming the SSAA did "zero" to help shooters, when this was pointed out that it was incorrect, you started the back tracking.

2. No just pointing out that you don't have one, all you are doing is brief perseverance, you argument/opinion was ill informed, poorly constructed and unthought out, when pointed out, you choose to double down on it.

3. I contribute a lot of valuable information, as an example I told jwai86 to apply for an internal review to get his firearms licence sorted instead of getting a lawyer involved. Which worked.

4. Point four is missing, having issues counting?

5. I have been petty clear that in saying that I think the NSC does far more harm them good, they also claim a lots of success but aren't able to provide any evidence that what they did assisted. Case in point this thread, the owner is reported (by the NSC) of missing half a pallet of ammo, lets be charitable and call it 1/3. yet the only picture or proof they can prove of this missing ammo is 3 small boxes? and you don't even question it. Bladeracer worked it out, but you no.

6.Cancel culture at its best, you don't like when people disagree with you or point out flaws in your thinking and instead have "private discussions" to get rid of them. Says a lot about the sort of person you are doesn't it.

[Oldbloke]

"Its pretty clear you were claiming the SSAA did "zero" to help shooters, when this was pointed out that it was incorrect, you started the back tracking."

Show me what they have done. Apart from collect range fees. I am yet to see anything.

[Oldbloke]

Fion,

I've noticed since you have arrived that it's very unusual to discuss shooting or hunting.
Predominantly you argue about,
Law.
Politics.
NSC, also,
Rubbish members.
Even promote the use of cartridges that are too small to provide a humane kill.

Soooo, this prompts me to ask, are you:
A member of the police force?
A member of another government department, if so, what department?
A member of the Greens party?
A member of the Animal? Justice Party?
A member of the Gun Control AU?
A member of the SSAA and incredibly jealous of the NSCs achievements because the SSAA has failed miserably in providing leadership or lobby for LAFAOs?
A Lawyer perhaps?
Why are you here? Just to stir sh1t?

Oh here.
4
The 4 you are so worried about.

[Fionn]

"Its pretty clear you were claiming the SSAA did "zero" to help shooters, when this was pointed out that it was incorrect, you started the back tracking."

Show me what they have done. Apart from collect range fees. I am yet to see anything.

I answered this, see post number 27.

[Oldbloke]

SSAA
SSAA the powerful gun lobby.

[Fionn]

Fion,

I've noticed since you have arrived that it's very unusual to discuss shooting or hunting.
Predominantly you argue about,
Law.
Politics.
NSC, also,
Rubbish members.
Even promote the use of cartridges that are too small to provide a humane kill.

I suggest you read the terms of the website, what I discuss in inline with them.

BTW its Fionn.

Soooo, this prompts me to ask, are you:
A member of the police force?
A member of another government department, if so, what department?
A member of the Greens party?
A member of the Animal? Justice Party?
A member of the Gun Control AU?
A member of the SSAA and incredibly jealous of the NSCs achievements because the SSAA has failed miserably in providing leadership or lobby for LAFAOs?
A Lawyer perhaps?
Why are you here? Just to stir sh1t?

Oh here.
4
The 4 you are so worried about.

As per the terms of this site, I am not to post personally identifiable information.

[Oldbloke]

Fion,

I've noticed since you have arrived that it's very unusual to discuss shooting or hunting.
Predominantly you argue about,
Law.
Politics.
NSC, also,
Rubbish members.
Even promote the use of cartridges that are too small to provide a humane kill.

I suggest you read the terms of the website, what I discuss in inline with them.

BTW its Fionn.

Soooo, this prompts me to ask, are you:
A member of the police force?
A member of another government department, if so, what department?
A member of the Greens party?
A member of the Animal? Justice Party?
A member of the Gun Control AU?
A member of the SSAA and incredibly jealous of the NSCs achievements because the SSAA has failed miserably in providing leadership or lobby for LAFAOs?
A Lawyer perhaps?
Why are you here? Just to stir sh1t?

Oh here.
4
The 4 you are so worried about.

As per the terms of this site, I am not to post personally identifiable information.

Convenient answer. Sounds like a public servants reply. Guess I hit a nerve.

[Fionn]

Fion,

I've noticed since you have arrived that it's very unusual to discuss shooting or hunting.
Predominantly you argue about,
Law.
Politics.
NSC, also,
Rubbish members.
Even promote the use of cartridges that are too small to provide a humane kill.

I suggest you read the terms of the website, what I discuss in inline with them.

BTW its Fionn.

Soooo, this prompts me to ask, are you:
A member of the police force?
A member of another government department, if so, what department?
A member of the Greens party?
A member of the Animal? Justice Party?
A member of the Gun Control AU?
A member of the SSAA and incredibly jealous of the NSCs achievements because the SSAA has failed miserably in providing leadership or lobby for LAFAOs?
A Lawyer perhaps?
Why are you here? Just to stir sh1t?

Oh here.
4
The 4 you are so worried about.

As per the terms of this site, I am not to post personally identifiable information.

Convenient answer. Guess I hit a nerve.

Not at all, it has no relevance to the discussion, you are just looking for more ammo* for your cancel culture attitude, you have no real argument so are looking at attacking the person and getting them cancelled.

As I said earlier, I am not a supporter of the SSAA, but claiming they do "zero" for shooters like you have is just utter nonsense.





*pun intended (for the slow people)

[Oldbloke]

Yep, another typical public servant reply.

[animalpest]

Fion,
Soooo, this prompts me to ask, are you:
A member of the police force?
A member of another government department, if so, what department?
A member of the Greens party?
A member of the Animal? Justice Party?
A member of the Gun Control AU?
A member of the SSAA and incredibly jealous of the NSCs achievements because the SSAA has failed miserably in providing leadership or lobby for LAFAOs?
A Lawyer perhaps?
Why are you here?.

Oh please, please can I answer?
Umm, no
Was
Green as dead grass
Justice for all animal parties
Control guns, yep lock them up
Was for 20 years, but nope
Not a "lawyer"
To keep people honest

[on_one_wheel]

($250,000) in ammo.

That's estimated black market value.

[Barbarian]

Did any one notice that the NSC is advocating that all ammo purchases be recorded against your licence and they are advocating that records are kept by firearm owners on the amount they have and use.

To the best of my knowledge all ammunition sales are already recorded against your license at the point of sale anyway. In WA atleast, my license has to be sighted to purchase ammunition. I assumed honestly that it was the same in other states, atleast on the dealer's side.

Personally I keep a record of how much ammunition/components I have in my safe for insurance purposes but also just for general record keeping as I do sometimes shoot factory loads in a match if I'm constrained for time and at the very least like to keep track of how much of each batch I have, same goes with my brass as I keep track of how many firings each box has and the quantity.

So I don't think the NSC advocating for shooters to keep personal records is a bad thing personally. As for being recorded against your license, it already happens here in WA, even if not updated on your license for WAPOL to view (afaik atleast)

Yep, that's my point.
All SSAA does is operate Ranges. Sad to say nothing in relation to helping shooters of changing/lobbying for better laws.

Back tracking now are we, before you said they do nothing, sorry don't want to verbalise you, "Zero" to help shooters : now your admitting they do.

Also the NSC are advocating for bad laws as I pointed out above, where as I don't believe the SSAA have done.

I guess the NSC are lucky to have people like you to give them money to advocate for these bad laws.

Your clearly missing the point of Oldbloke's original post.

The SSAA have done SFA in the area of legislative action and political lobbying because pushing back against the powers that be loses them political clout. They'd much rather sit on their laurels for past achievements than actually stick their neck out for LAFO's

The NSC might not have the most gifted PR team running the show nor do I think their articles are particularly well written and often full of sensationalist/clickbait language. But they are actively pursuing legislative action against things such as reclassification and the arbitrary powers of various jurisdictions to refuse licenses for no other reason than their notion that everyone with a high caliber rifle is looking to become Postal Bob Lee Swagger.

The SSAA run ranges, provide insurance and training. All valuable services, but so do many other organizations.

If the SSAA are going to continue to tuck tail and bow to the powers that be for fear of not being invited back to the table at the next meeting or losing whatever political clout they have left then its no surprise younger, more active groups are willing to take up the charge.

You say you think the NSC do more harm than good but I contest that the SSAA's inaction and unwillingness to go to bat for shooters does far more harm.

---------------------

Back to the topic at hand, the sheer amount of ammunition claimed to be missing does seem rather suspect indeed.

[Oldbloke]

"Your clearly missing the point of Oldbloke's original post.
The SSAA have done SFA in the area of legislative action and political lobbying because pushing back against the powers that be loses them political clout. They'd much rather sit on their laurels for past achievements than actually stick their neck out for LAFO's"

He isn't missing the point. He ignores it.
Why? My guess is he doesn't like what they have achieved. It's obvious he has a strong dislike for NSC.

Yes, it's a hell of a lot of ammo. But the limits are very generous in Vic.

[Oldbloke]

Copied from another Web site.

The relevant legislation in VIC is the Dangerous Goods [Explosives] Regulations 2022, made under the Dangerous Goods Act 1985. The current Regs came into operation on 18th June 2022, BTW.

Here they be; https://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/view ... gr2022416/

In summary, the Vic storage limits for shooters [i.e. firearms licence holders] are set out in Column 2 of Reg 83, as follows:
5kg Black Powder [Propellant, DG Class 1.1D]
20kg Smokeless Propellants [Classes 1.1C, 1.3C and 1.4C ]
40,000 loaded cartridges [Class 1.4S]
10,000 total primers and percussion caps [Class 1.4S]
Inert cartridge components [cases, wads, projectiles, shot] are not restricted in Vic, in any way.

NB: Propellants and primers are not permitted to be stored in:
An inhabited building, i.e. one where people live [Reg 64]
A document/money safe, or refrigerator [Reg 67]

[bladeracer]

To the best of my knowledge all ammunition sales are already recorded against your license at the point of sale anyway. In WA atleast, my license has to be sighted to purchase ammunition. I assumed honestly that it was the same in other states, atleast on the dealer's side.

Personally I keep a record of how much ammunition/components I have in my safe for insurance purposes but also just for general record keeping as I do sometimes shoot factory loads in a match if I'm constrained for time and at the very least like to keep track of how much of each batch I have, same goes with my brass as I keep track of how many firings each box has and the quantity.

So I don't think the NSC advocating for shooters to keep personal records is a bad thing personally. As for being recorded against your license, it already happens here in WA, even if not updated on your license for WAPOL to view (afaik atleast)

In Vic my dealer sights my licence but nothing is noted down, they're just checking the name and date of expiry as far as I can see. It's possible they might note it after I leave but that seems unlikely. When I buy a firearm they clearly note the licence details in the book so I would expect them to do the same if it were required upon buying ammo/powder/primers.

I keep receipts for everything anyway out of habit but I don't specifically keep a record of how much ammo I have on hand. I do a stocktake every year or so on my .22LR ammo so I have a list of the ones I need to get more of, and I do have a list of my bullet stock for .172" to .323" rifle bullets, but I have so many pistol bullets I've never bothered counting them. I don't bother trying to record how many bullets I've cast or how much centrefire rifle/pistol ammo I have currently loaded up though. When covid was looming I did a stocktake of my powders and primers so I could stock up, but I've bought more since then, I'll try to grab at least a brick of primers whenever I visit a gunshop just to spend something with them. I don't use much 12ga. but I keep several slabs handy. I do log every shot I fire in each firearm anyway.

I'm sure criminals must get some ammo from licenced shooters, through theft or illegal dealings, but I would expect anybody importing illegal firearms is also importing the ammo for them - I doubt anything coming from ourselves is relevant to criminal firearm use at all. It just doesn't make sense to me that anybody would go to the trouble of bringing in firearms illegally to supply the black market without also supplying ammo to their customers. I suspect that the entirety of all criminal firearm usage across this country in any year would equate to less ammo than many of us expend lawfully in a week.

[bladeracer]

($250,000) in ammo.

That's estimated black market value.

I have no idea what ammo goes for illegally. I guess a crim with a firearm might pay $100 for a box of 9mm or .22LR if he had no other source, but I would suspect they wouldn't be offloading hot stuff a box at a time to every John Doe that asks - that's potentially 1200 word-of-mouth customers any one of which could lead Police straight back to the seller. I would expect they'd offload it bulk to somebody with a handful of ready cash, at a massive discount. If it had a real value of say $50k it probably gets offloaded for five or ten grand would be my guess, most probably to somebody that is never going to use any of it in criminal activity anyway.

60,000rds of .22LR would be worth anything from about $7,000 to about $40,000 for top-tier competition ammo.
60,000rds of common centrefire pistol/rifle/shotgun ammo could be anything from $20,000 to $150,000, for more exotic stuff it could be a half-million or more.

Now, the photo of the rimfire ammo he claims was not returned (that he photographed in the Police vehicle) is nothing exotic, it's just basic rimfire ammunition, something less than 10,000rds in that photo. So that's about a sixth of the claim of 60,000rds missing, and probably values around a couple thousand dollars I reckon. So the remaining 50,000rds are worth almost $250,000 on their own (however they calculate black market value on this stuff). I have seen it said that he "collected" all this ammo over decades, so perhaps he did have a large amount of collectible ammo that hasn't been returned, in which case it would have virtually zero value on the black market (for criminal firearm usage), but could be worth many dollars each individually - some of the Nitro Express and Weatherby cartridges for example. But if he did have collectible ammo he would surely have thousands of photos to support this claim, and technically an ammunition collector's licence to go with it.

For me the numbers are enormously inflated well beyond reality based on the info we've been offered.

[Lazarus]

To the best of my knowledge all ammunition sales are already recorded against your license at the point of sale anyway. In WA atleast, my license has to be sighted to purchase ammunition. I assumed honestly that it was the same in other states, atleast on the dealer's side.

Personally I keep a record of how much ammunition/components I have in my safe for insurance purposes but also just for general record keeping as I do sometimes shoot factory loads in a match if I'm constrained for time and at the very least like to keep track of how much of each batch I have, same goes with my brass as I keep track of how many firings each box has and the quantity.

So I don't think the NSC advocating for shooters to keep personal records is a bad thing personally. As for being recorded against your license, it already happens here in WA, even if not updated on your license for WAPOL to view (afaik atleast)

In Vic my dealer sights my licence but nothing is noted down, they're just checking the name and date of expiry as far as I can see. It's possible they might note it after I leave but that seems unlikely. When I buy a firearm they clearly note the licence details in the book so I would expect them to do the same if it were required upon buying ammo/powder/primers.

I keep receipts for everything anyway out of habit but I don't specifically keep a record of how much ammo I have on hand. I do a stocktake every year or so on my .22LR ammo so I have a list of the ones I need to get more of, and I do have a list of my bullet stock for .172" to .323" rifle bullets, but I have so many pistol bullets I've never bothered counting them. I don't bother trying to record how many bullets I've cast or how much centrefire rifle/pistol ammo I have currently loaded up though. When covid was looming I did a stocktake of my powders and primers so I could stock up, but I've bought more since then, I'll try to grab at least a brick of primers whenever I visit a gunshop just to spend something with them. I don't use much 12ga. but I keep several slabs handy. I do log every shot I fire in each firearm anyway.

I'm sure criminals must get some ammo from licenced shooters, through theft or illegal dealings, but I would expect anybody importing illegal firearms is also importing the ammo for them - I doubt anything coming from ourselves is relevant to criminal firearm use at all. It just doesn't make sense to me that anybody would go to the trouble of bringing in firearms illegally to supply the black market without also supplying ammo to their customers. I suspect that the entirety of all criminal firearm usage across this country in any year would equate to less ammo than many of us expend lawfully in a week.

Have a look at your receipts Blade.
On mine in NSW it records the date of sale, my full name, licence number, my account number, type of ammunition, a product code, amount, price, any discounts, the staff member who did the sale and extraneous store identification.

According to the staff member I spoke to yesterday, and I can only take his word as I have no way of checking and see no reason for him to make it up, that product code is linked to the batch number.

That's a pretty comprehensive record of who bought how much of what batch of which ammo and when.

[bladeracer]

Have a look at your receipts Blade.
On mine in NSW it records the date of sale, my full name, licence number, my account number, type of ammunition, a product code, amount, price, any discounts, the staff member who did the sale and extraneous store identification.

According to the staff member I spoke to yesterday, and I can only take his word as I have no way of checking and see no reason for him to make it up, that product code is linked to the batch number.

That's a pretty comprehensive record of who bought how much of what batch of which ammo and when.

They're just the two-inch strip of fax paper that gets spat out of the EFTPOS thing, that's all I get. It says that an EFTPOS payment was made at this place and time. I don't want to photograph it as I don't know if any of it shouldn't be made public but it says Westpac, my dealer's name and address (no dealer licence number), date and time, type of account, last four digits of the card I used, and the amount at the bottom, in this case $120 (it was for a brick of large rifle magnum primers a couple months ago) - it's the same receipt you'd get buying a book at a secondhand book shop. Unfortunately I don't have the receipt for the case of .22LR I bought last month as Rose already filed it, but it's the same thing out of the EFTPOS machine. As I said, if they're keeping a record they're doing it after I leave, which is unlikely. Any investigation would easily determine that I bought $120 worth of goods on that day, the shop's internal records might show outgoings of a brick of primers so they know their stock levels perhaps. Of course there is no record of whether I still have them or whether I've already used them, other than my own logbooks, and the fact that they're still sitting in their secure storage. Keep in mind that this facsimile paper used for these receipts fades over time, in a year or three they'll be entirely unreadable. I just don't think anybody is being required to keep any record here.

[Lazarus]

Well that's weird.
I only pay cash now, but even when I paid by effing-pos I got a store receipt as well.
Maybe it's a state thing, maybe it's a dealer specific thing.

Vive la difference

I considered a pic of the receipt but by the time I'd anonymised it it was virtually meaningless

[Oldbloke]

Well that's weird.
I only pay cash now, but even when I paid by effing-pos I got a store receipt as well.
Maybe it's a state thing, maybe it's a dealer specific thing.

Vive la difference

I considered a pic of the receipt but by the time I'd anonymised it it was virtually meaningless

You bet your left nut, each state is different.

I got 1kg about 3 weeks ago. No record taken, just viewed my licence.

Couple of years ago, another LGS, bought 2k primers + 1kg powder if my memory serves me. It was all recorded in a book against my Lic Num. I asked and was told it was a worksafe requirement.
But see above its in the DG regs here in Vic.

[Oldbloke]

Regarding g the ammo. It may well be inflated. But makes NO difference.

Whether it was 10 rounds or 40k. The claim is that cops have stolen them.

IF its true, not good enough.

And a note, I had a heap of stuff stolen 5 months ago. Cops apprehended the thief a few weeks later. I'm not making any claims, but seems strange that not 1 item has been found and returned. I just get fobbed off when i ph them. Many items were not just expensive, but impossible to trace and easy to sell. You hear stories and you just wonder.

[bladeracer]

I agree that the claim of wrong doing is bad, but we have every expectation of truthful reporting from the people representing his interests. The information we've been offered doesn't add up.

Regarding g the ammo. It may well be inflated. But makes NO difference.

Whether it was 10 rounds or 40k. The claim is that cops have stolen them.

IF its true, not good enough.

And a note, I had a heap of stuff stolen 5 months ago. Cops apprehended the thief a few weeks later. I'm not making any claims, but seems strange that not 1 item has been found and returned. I just get fobbed off when i ph them. Many items were not just expensive, but impossible to trace and easy to sell. You hear stories and you just wonder.

[Lazarus]

I'm not into conspiracy theories, anyone who believes them needs a foil hat nailed to their head, but I have read several reports from widely different sources that one of the weapons used by Bryant, may he be sewn up in the belly of a dead camel, was previously surrendered.

That is probably apocryphal, but it would fit with other instances of police firearms going missing and this subject of a large, albeit disputed, amount of ammunition disappearing from custody.

[Oldbloke]

I agree that the claim of wrong doing is bad, but we have every expectation of truthful reporting from the people representing his interests. The information we've been offered doesn't add up.

Regarding g the ammo. It may well be inflated. But makes NO difference.

Whether it was 10 rounds or 40k. The claim is that cops have stolen them.

IF its true, not good enough.

And a note, I had a heap of stuff stolen 5 months ago. Cops apprehended the thief a few weeks later. I'm not making any claims, but seems strange that not 1 item has been found and returned. I just get fobbed off when i ph them. Many items were not just expensive, but impossible to trace and easy to sell. You hear stories and you just wonder.

Yes, but perhaps more info will come to light later explaining the weird numbers. As always we only know what we are fed. At least someone is now actively attempting to assist shooters and lobby for better laws. As I suggested earlier, easy to criticise those having a crack and making a few mistakes.

Especially if you do SFA, then you can claim you get it right every time.

[bladeracer]

Yes, but perhaps more info will come to light later explaining the weird numbers. As always we only know what we are fed. At least someone is now actively attempting to assist shooters and lobby for better laws. As I suggested earlier, easy to criticise those having a crack and making a few mistakes.

Especially if you do SFA, then you can claim you get it right every time.

That's why I'm a member of all these orgs, but it would be good if they'd actually work together!

[Oldbloke]

Yes, but perhaps more info will come to light later explaining the weird numbers. As always we only know what we are fed. At least someone is now actively attempting to assist shooters and lobby for better laws. As I suggested earlier, easy to criticise those having a crack and making a few mistakes.

Especially if you do SFA, then you can claim you get it right every time.

That's why I'm a member of all these orgs, but it would be good if they'd actually work together!

Wouldn't that be wonderful.

About '96 I joined SSAA. Because they were big and Ted Drane was having a crack. He was in the media regularly. I hoped they word step up to the mark, provide leadership and pull all of the clubs, associations etc together as a cohesive group.

Didn't happen, later Ted Died. I resigned in frustration after 26 years of waiting patiently.

I might add, in that time I went to the local range about two dozen times. It was a donation.

[bladeracer]

I might add, in that time I went to the local range about two dozen times. It was a donation.

I joined most of the orgs in late 2014, early 2015 when I moved here from WA. I still haven't been to a SSAA range. I did manage to get to a Field & Game shoot early this year but only for a look, doubt I'll go again. I went to Rosedale in 2015 (a VRA range I think), and I went to the local indoor rifle range here for a look before covid, but I have no idea which organisation they're under. If I manage to get to the LERAA shoot in February it'll be the first time I've shot at a range since I stopped IPSC back in '03, and the first time at a rifle range since I was a kid in '83. I don't need any of these club memberships for any tangible reason, but without them how do we get new shooters into this game.

[Oldbloke]

I might add. NSC would not even exist if the other organisations actually worked together.

And we would all be in a better place.