Will .223 with 1-8 twist...

[TikkaT3.223]

Will my Tikka T3 Varmint chambered in .223 Rem with a 1in8 twist ratio be able to stabilize 64gr or 55gr bullets? i've heard of it being done, but im not too sure.

Any info would be appreciated

[zook60]

If you want to shoot 55g and under get a 1in12 if you want to shoot 50-75g get the 1in8

[TikkaT3.223]

So the 1-8 twist will stabilize 55gr and up?

[Westy]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ YES ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I have both(1-12 and 1-8)T3 and 55/60Grn V max work good in both I'm working up a load 70Grn speer soft point for the 1-8 at the moment!!!!!!

[TikkaT3.223]

Haha awesome Westy thanks man

[zook60]

Yep Im shooting 1/2" groups with my 1in8 with 55g Sierra soft points

[TikkaT3.223]

Aww nice Ok well, I'll get a few different boxes of each aye

Would you guys recommend BTHP or SP's for hunting?

[zook60]

I prefer softpoints as it will give you more leeway if you come across pigs or goats.

[TikkaT3.223]

ok. will the softpoints give you less internal damage too, but still have no trouble with killing them?

[Fozzy]

I have the Tikka T3 Varmint in 1:8 and it shoots 55g cheap winchester white box stuff like a charm

[yoshie]

1:8 ( fast twist for heavy bullets) will stabilise light bullets (if anything it will over spin them, which isn't a bad thing), 1:12 (slow twist for light bullets) won't stabilise heavy bullets.

Under stabilised is really bad for accuracy, over stabilised isn't the best for accuracy but should still be fairly acceptable (hunting accuracy).

[joojoobeans]

over stabilised isn't the best for accuracy but should still be fairly acceptable (hunting accuracy).

What happens when it's over stabilized?

[handofcod]

I've heard of overstabilised bullets coming apart a few feet out of the muzzle. Never seen it but something to keep in mind. I never used anything lighter than 55gr pills in my 223 with a 1:8 barrel.

[bluehorse]

I just got a howa 1500 with a heavier barrel ,not bull barrel but heavier at 24inches . and now reading with interest all that I can find on accuracy of various weights of bullets . I have 55 gn sierras put away to use for roos.in 22 250 . i am hoping they will suit this 223 . Primary reason for223 is shortage of primers . LOL . No good going away to do roos and find I have nothing to shoot with so 223 is a reserve and hopefully readymade is always available .
I had friends who used 222magnum when it was popular and were quite successful . I presume 223 is very similar . I am not interested in trying to shoot pigs long range with this . . I dont even load 243 for pigs . I always loaded for roos and tried 75 grainers on pigs . It was just too light so I have 270 or308 for pigs . It will be interesting to see what range and what results . Close range if good shots present themselves then even a 22 hornet can get a fair sized pig but that does not mean it is pig hunting calibre . Big black older pigs on open country take a bit of getting particularly if they have been shot at previously .
I will be surprised if 223 cannot do the job on roos using 50 or 55 grains projectile but it needs to be consistently accurate .
What do you blokes think ??

[JohnV]

All bullets suffer a certain amount of spin drift but the faster they spin the greater the drift is but it's still a very small amount at hunting ranges . I have shot many hundreds of roos in the old days with 222 Rimmed , 222 Rem , .223 Rem. and some with a 22-250 . I have used Sierra 55 grain HPBT and they work well . A lot of pro roo shooters use the .223 . Another thing is the grazier can get boxes of .223 Rem from local suppliers at wholesale prices . When I ran a 222 Rem I had a crate of 1000 rounds of .223 dropped at my feet free so that was the end of the 222 .

[Oldbloke]

Try this.


https://bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/

[bigrich]

I had a crate of 1000 rounds of .223 dropped at my feet free so that was the end of the 222 .

common story these days . a lot of big property's do exactly that . you'll wear out a rifle real fast in some parts of the country ......

[straightshooter]

A 1 in 8" twist will happily stabilise 80 grain projectiles.
As the projectile weight is reduced then the gyroscopic stability (GS) of projectiles increases for a particular caliber. Too much GS makes the long range trajectory poor due to an apparent reduction in BC.
Contrary to statements made by earlier posters a "spin stabilised projectile" technically can only be either stable or unstable. The level of GS determines whether (or to what extent) the projectile will follow it's ballistic trajectory nose first or stay axially in the same plane as was the barrel for the entirety of it's flight path. A high figure for GS does not present a problem at normal hunting ranges of perhaps up to 300 meters.
The terms that may sometimes be encountered such as "go to sleep" and "over stabilised" don't have any true technical meaning and only serve to convey a vague impression of what may be happening.
The big drawback of too much twist with light projectiles is the potential for core separation which leads to poor or even disastrous accuracy.

[bluehorse]

I am simply flabbergasted as to why somebody who owns several differnt calibres of rifle will choose to shoot heavy bullets from a 223 . I am thinking that 55grainers are what i will shoot from mine but prefer to send 50 grains if they are not a problem such as breaking up/.
I have shot 22 250 and found it very finicky .55s hit hard too at near max charge but after trying 55s in 243 found no comparison in hitting power range and accuracy over my 22 250 .
My point is why play with heavy bullets unless trying to prove a point when u have a range ofcalibres available . . Rifles have never been so cheap Ithinkif one chooses carefully and matches calibre / target species and weight of projectiles .
For instance I use 243 with light to mid range pills depending on cost and availabilty . I have quite a few 70s saved up . and if I want to have more hitting power I go to 270or 308 and costs /availabilty / weight of projectiles /accuracy come into choice of load. . I can appreciate many like to champion the cause of 223 and twist rates / accuracy but in all honesty I cannot imagine a 223 being effective using a 70grain pill as a 243 shooting a 70grainer at medium to fast loads . I believe that matching the calibre to the quarry simple as that . I dont shoot a few rounds off after i develop the desired load for each calibre. I was shooting sometimes in excess of 100a night so matching scope ,mounts and charges to the calibre to get results .
I bought a 223 as a standby just incase I cannot get components to load my desired calibre ,223 seems to be available in factory loads everywhere if I am stuck for ammo .
I dont think I will be using 223 as a long range outfit so the bullet size etc is purely academic ..I will stick to tried and true ;for results that are proven.
Incidentally I have listened to others using 223 and that are happy with results too . In particular noise levels Something that is often never considered .
I am hoping 223 will impress me .
My main reason for posting is to ask the questions above . Maybe somebody else has a different view to me . BUT I hate reading advice and posrs from those who profess to be an authority and then read about shooting off a few rounds only . . To get a good rifle ready that is not shooting so well takes lots of time and lots of rounds to understand where its problem lays . Someimes I have shot off hundred or more to begin to impove the accuracy and tighten it up. LOL and I have my own range marked out at home .or what I do would be almost impossible . That is loading and testing ,swapping scopes to check by substitution etc . And I use old fashioned scales duly tested at random . I have been let down by electronics many times . I dont use electronic calipers either .
Some of those can tell u what u want to see lol. A micrometer is what I use .
I have a problem in understanding the reason to shoot a heavy bullet long range considering hitting power is proportional to speed of projectile over the distance . Shooting paper is all very well to prove accuracy over distance but that does not equate to the quarry cooperating and putting its feet in the air .
..

[bladeracer]

Main reason is that the heavier bullet has much higher Ballistic coefficient so it loses less velocity over distance and is less effected by wind. The heavier bullet starts out slower, but out around the 500m range it will be carrying more velocity than the lighter bullets as well as having less wind drift. My .223 shoots 35gn bullets just as well as 80gn or 85gn bullets, so I can't see any reason to go for less twist than 8" - all it does is limit your options.

If all your shooting is under about 300m and you're not battling annoying winds then lighter bullets are just fine. I used .222 when I was a kid with 52gn and 53gn bullets for my "long-range" shots, which were no more than 300m at that time. Most of my shooting was under 200m on rabbits, foxes and crows. And I didn't have the winds in SA that I have here, wind is a major consideration for me these days. Shooting .303 yesterday at 460m I had around a metre of wind drift, but the wind was particularly heavy. I certainly understand why somebody would find heavy bullets a nonsense if they haven't had to shoot in heavy gusting winds. Even at 300m, reducing the wind drift from 350mm with a 3200fps 55gn VMax to 180mm with a 2850fps 80gn ELDM can be the difference between hits and misses.

I am simply flabbergasted as to why somebody who owns several differnt calibres of rifle will choose to shoot heavy bullets from a 223 . I am thinking that 55grainers are what i will shoot from mine but prefer to send 50 grains if they are not a problem such as breaking up/.
I have shot 22 250 and found it very finicky .55s hit hard too at near max charge but after trying 55s in 243 found no comparison in hitting power range and accuracy over my 22 250 .
My point is why play with heavy bullets unless trying to prove a point when u have a range of calibres available . . Rifles have never been so cheap Ithinkif one chooses carefully and matches calibre / target species and weight of projectiles .
For instance I use 243 with light to mid range pills depending on cost and availabilty . I have quite a few 70s saved up . and if I want to have more hitting power I go to 270or 308 and costs /availabilty / weight of projectiles /accuracy come into choice of load. . I can appreciate many like to champion the cause of 223 and twist rates / accuracy but in all honesty I cannot imagine a 223 being effective using a 70grain pill as a 243 shooting a 70grainer at medium to fast loads . I believe that matching the calibre to the quarry simple as that . I dont shoot a few rounds off after i develop the desired load for each calibre. I was shooting sometimes in excess of 100a night so matching scope ,mounts and charges to the calibre to get results .
I bought a 223 as a standby just incase I cannot get components to load my desired calibre ,223 seems to be available in factory loads everywhere if I am stuck for ammo .
I dont think I will be using 223 as a long range outfit so the bullet size etc is purely academic ..I will stick to tried and true ;for results that are proven.
Incidentally I have listened to others using 223 and that are happy with results too . In particular noise levels Something that is often never considered .
I am hoping 223 will impress me .
My main reason for posting is to ask the questions above . Maybe somebody else has a different view to me . BUT I hate reading advice and posrs from those who profess to be an authority and then read about shooting off a few rounds only . . To get a good rifle ready that is not shooting so well takes lots of time and lots of rounds to understand where its problem lays . Someimes I have shot off hundred or more to begin to impove the accuracy and tighten it up. LOL and I have my own range marked out at home .or what I do would be almost impossible . That is loading and testing ,swapping scopes to check by substitution etc . And I use old fashioned scales duly tested at random . I have been let down by electronics many times . I dont use electronic calipers either .
Some of those can tell u what u want to see lol. A micrometer is what I use .
I have a problem in understanding the reason to shoot a heavy bullet long range considering hitting power is proportional to speed of projectile over the distance . Shooting paper is all very well to prove accuracy over distance but that does not equate to the quarry cooperating and putting its feet in the air .
..

[niteowl]

A 1 in 8" twist will happily stabilise 80 grain projectiles.
As the projectile weight is reduced then the gyroscopic stability (GS) of projectiles increases for a particular caliber. Too much GS makes the long range trajectory poor due to an apparent reduction in BC.
Contrary to statements made by earlier posters a "spin stabilised projectile" technically can only be either stable or unstable. The level of GS determines whether (or to what extent) the projectile will follow it's ballistic trajectory nose first or stay axially in the same plane as was the barrel for the entirety of it's flight path. A high figure for GS does not present a problem at normal hunting ranges of perhaps up to 300 meters.
The terms that may sometimes be encountered such as "go to sleep" and "over stabilised" don't have any true technical meaning and only serve to convey a vague impression of what may be happening.
The big drawback of too much twist with light projectiles is the potential for core separation which leads to poor or even disastrous accuracy.

You beat me to it. I hate that term, as you say, it is stabilized or not !!!
There are other terms incorrectly used in the firearm subject that are also wrong but wont go into that here.

[on_one_wheel]

Over stability can exist in long range shooting.
The projectile leaves the barrel in an upward trajectory, when their "over stabilised" the projectile will hold the nose high orientation during its decent after it's mid trajectory causing it to fly nose high.

For most of us it wouldn't be noticed at typical hunting ranges.

[SCJ429]

I hope you are not flabbergasted but I have shot several thousand 80 grain VLD from my 223. I have several other rifles set up for longer range but use the 223 because it is cheaper and good to practice with. It is great to practice in the wind and I get nearly 4000 rounds out of it before the barrel is toast compared to 1500 from my 6mmBR.

For hunting, I would use 55 grain bullets on foxes, mainly because they are heavy enough and my hunting ranges are normally less than 300 metres.

[straightshooter]

A 1 in 8" twist will happily stabilise 80 grain projectiles.
As the projectile weight is reduced then the gyroscopic stability (GS) of projectiles increases for a particular caliber. Too much GS makes the long range trajectory poor due to an apparent reduction in BC.
Contrary to statements made by earlier posters a "spin stabilised projectile" technically can only be either stable or unstable. The level of GS determines whether (or to what extent) the projectile will follow it's ballistic trajectory nose first or stay axially in the same plane as was the barrel for the entirety of it's flight path. A high figure for GS does not present a problem at normal hunting ranges of perhaps up to 300 meters.
The terms that may sometimes be encountered such as "go to sleep" and "over stabilised" don't have any true technical meaning and only serve to convey a vague impression of what may be happening.
The big drawback of too much twist with light projectiles is the potential for core separation which leads to poor or even disastrous accuracy.

You beat me to it. I hate that term, as you say, it is stabilized or not !!!
There are other terms incorrectly used in the firearm subject that are also wrong but wont go into that here.

Another problem with "too much twist" that is much under appreciated is it's general effect on accuracy.
To put it very simply, every projectile has some amount of discrepancy between it's axis of center of form and it's axis of center of gravity.
While in the barrel it is rotating about it's center of form but the moment it exits the barrel it immediately shifts to rotation about it's center of gravity.
For a simplistic example.
Say you have a 52 grain projectile in a 223 with a 14" twist that averages a group size of 0.5 inches at a 100 yards over a sufficiently large sample size of groups.
We now fire that same projectile in a 8" twist with the same sufficiently large sample size of groups and the average group size can be predicted by the calculation 0.5 x (14/8) = 0.857

[bladeracer]

Over stability can exist in long range shooting.
The projectile leaves the barrel in an upward trajectory, when their "over stabilised" the projectile will hold the nose high orientation during its decent after it's mid trajectory causing it to fly nose high.

For most of us it wouldn't be noticed at typical hunting ranges.

It was assumed that as it occurs with large artillery shells that it also applied to bullets, but I thought radar measurement had proved that small arms bullets don't exhibit this tendency?

[JohnV]

Over stability can exist in long range shooting.
The projectile leaves the barrel in an upward trajectory, when their "over stabilised" the projectile will hold the nose high orientation during its decent after it's mid trajectory causing it to fly nose high.

For most of us it wouldn't be noticed at typical hunting ranges.

It was assumed that as it occurs with large artillery shells that it also applied to bullets, but I thought radar measurement had proved that small arms bullets don't exhibit this tendency?

Yes they can . If you look at the unequal angle of the shock wave coming from the meplat it shows the bullet is flying nose up .
This Doppler radar image is interesting because it also shows that the turbulence from the boat tail is not much better than a flat base . Boat tails don't do much until the projectile drops back down below the speed of sound and in that case way past most hunting ranges anyway but they do look sexy .

[JohnV]

I had a crate of 1000 rounds of .223 dropped at my feet free so that was the end of the 222 .

common story these days . a lot of big property's do exactly that . you'll wear out a rifle real fast in some parts of the country ......

Your right I once went to a property and they had a number of Sako 222's all in a state of disrepair or worn out barrels and they asked if I could fix any of them . Well from all of them I cobbled together a few good shooting rifles , I forget the exact numbers now . Most pro roo shooters that I have encountered also use the 223 . I always remember the BS from Nick Harvey saying how he shot roos professionally with a 270W ! F*ck . Imaging shooting a 270 100 times a night , your brain would be addled . He was a good bloke Nick , I knew him but he was prone to BS a bit in his writings .