Advertised detection ranges of thermals

[Die Judicii]

Yes, I can see a use for Xtreme range detection,, but seriously,,,,,
Why produce equipment that enables a person to see or detect an animal that is far in excess of what the average hunter can accurately shoot ??
What is the point

Granted,,, in the case of hunting,,,,,, for example Sambar,, yes you could sit atop a mountain peak or bottom of a valley,, and pick up a trophy Sambar well in excess of accurate shot placement but ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
In that typical type terrain,, by the time you work into a sure shot position,, old mate Sambar would be long gone.
And besides, we are talking thermal,,,,,,,,, so what,,,, you stalk 1,300 meters up a mountainside in total darkness ???

Personally I think these manufacturers are throwing out these ?ridiculous detection/viewing ranges to get would be buyers sucked in,,, in a frenzy, only then to discover that using it is not necessarily a practical possibility.

We are all suckers to a certain degree of the wily tactics used these days by the cunning and "sailing close to the wind" advertisers of such products.

What say the masses ??

[bladeracer]

Does having a longer maximum range improve definition at the closer ranges?
I guess it could be useful to determine what area the animals are in or move through, allowing you to plan the next day's of hunting.

Yes, I can see a use for Xtreme range detection,, but seriously,,,,,
Why produce equipment that enables a person to see or detect an animal that is far in excess of what the average hunter can accurately shoot ??
What is the point

Granted,,, in the case of hunting,,,,,, for example Sambar,, yes you could sit atop a mountain peak or bottom of a valley,, and pick up a trophy Sambar well in excess of accurate shot placement but ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
In that typical type terrain,, by the time you work into a sure shot position,, old mate Sambar would be long gone.
And besides, we are talking thermal,,,,,,,,, so what,,,, you stalk 1,300 meters up a mountainside in total darkness ???

Personally I think these manufacturers are throwing out these ?ridiculous detection/viewing ranges to get would be buyers sucked in,,, in a frenzy, only then to discover that using it is not necessarily a practical possibility.

We are all suckers to a certain degree of the wily tactics used these days by the cunning and "sailing close to the wind" advertisers of such products.

What say the masses ??

[Peter988]

I get a lot of comfort from knowing if there are cattle/sheep etc a couple hundred metres out past what I am shooting at. That’s the main benefit for me.

[Lazarus]

Good point Peter.

My best guess would be sales appeal to those dick measurers who like to brag that their new gear is better than your old gear.

[Die Judicii]

In my OP I did mean to add that the farther out the better as far as things like search and rescue are concerned, but forgot.

Peter :
Yes Mate, that is a very valid point you make

Lazarus : I appreciate the humor Mate,,

[Lazarus]

In my OP I did mean to add that the farther out the better as far as things like search and rescue are concerned, but forgot.

Peter :
Yes Mate, that is a very valid point you make

Lazarus : I appreciate the humor Mate,,

Being serious though, I imagine that the sensitivity involved in longer range would allow better resolution and detection through light cover.
Just couldn't keep my inner gibbon quiet

[Peter988]

It’s actually scary to think how often stock may have been in the background when shooting with the white light over the years. White light doesn’t penetrate much more than 250m. We have to pull ourselves up a lot now because we see stock behind the target.

[Blr243]

I hunt open farmland that often has not a blade of grass on it. Pigs are coming onto it for grain or beans left over from harvest. I have seen them one k away. I like the long detection range. I also prefere the higher specs so i can identify game because i hate walking long way to find out its just a roo. I dream of 1280 res For 200 bucks. I dream alot

[brinny]

Yes, I can see a use for Xtreme range detection,, but seriously,,,,,
Why produce equipment that enables a person to see or detect an animal that is far in excess of what the average hunter can accurately shoot ??
What is the point

Granted,,, in the case of hunting,,,,,, for example Sambar,, yes you could sit atop a mountain peak or bottom of a valley,, and pick up a trophy Sambar well in excess of accurate shot placement but ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
In that typical type terrain,, by the time you work into a sure shot position,, old mate Sambar would be long gone.
And besides, we are talking thermal,,,,,,,,, so what,,,, you stalk 1,300 meters up a mountainside in total darkness ???

Personally I think these manufacturers are throwing out these ?ridiculous detection/viewing ranges to get would be buyers sucked in,,, in a frenzy, only then to discover that using it is not necessarily a practical possibility.

We are all suckers to a certain degree of the wily tactics used these days by the cunning and "sailing close to the wind" advertisers of such products.

What say the masses ??

Not all are out there chasing a trophy sambar at night mate....Im happy to be able to see critters out at long range just to see whats out there.....I sit up on some large hills all night scanning for miles across valleys looking for dogs etc....Handy to know whats about and whats moving around at distances....see them coming in and what they are heading for and plot a course to cut them off at the pass.....I personally like the idea of being able to detect them out a far.....suits what i do...

[niteowl]

It is vitally important to see what is in the background FAR beyond any distance you may wish to / or hope to shoot. It is also beneficial to watch your target a long way out to, 1. Identify it correctly, and 2. Watch its movement and see what approach to take.
The units I personally use can see and identify cattle at 2000 m. This is the same as "others" on this site also have.

[CRF]

Yes, I can see a use for Xtreme range detection,, but seriously,,,,,
Why produce equipment that enables a person to see or detect an animal that is far in excess of what the average hunter can accurately shoot ??
What is the point

Granted,,, in the case of hunting,,,,,, for example Sambar,, yes you could sit atop a mountain peak or bottom of a valley,, and pick up a trophy Sambar well in excess of accurate shot placement but ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
In that typical type terrain,, by the time you work into a sure shot position,, old mate Sambar would be long gone.
And besides, we are talking thermal,,,,,,,,, so what,,,, you stalk 1,300 meters up a mountainside in total darkness ???

Personally I think these manufacturers are throwing out these ?ridiculous detection/viewing ranges to get would be buyers sucked in,,, in a frenzy, only then to discover that using it is not necessarily a practical possibility.

We are all suckers to a certain degree of the wily tactics used these days by the cunning and "sailing close to the wind" advertisers of such products.

What say the masses ??

Not all are out there chasing a trophy sambar at night mate....Im happy to be able to see critters out at long range just to see whats out there.....I sit up on some large hills all night scanning for miles across valleys looking for dogs etc....Handy to know whats about and whats moving around at distances....see them coming in and what they are heading for and plot a course to cut them off at the pass.....I personally like the idea of being able to detect them out a far.....suits what i do...

Maybe not all, but I know three blokes who’ve so far bought them for “varminting”, didn’t take long for every one of them to use it for illegal night deer shooting.

[bladeracer]

Maybe not all, but I know three blokes who’ve so far bought them for “varminting”, didn’t take long for every one of them to use it for illegal night deer shooting.

On public land?

[brinny]

Yes, I can see a use for Xtreme range detection,, but seriously,,,,,
Why produce equipment that enables a person to see or detect an animal that is far in excess of what the average hunter can accurately shoot ??
What is the point

Granted,,, in the case of hunting,,,,,, for example Sambar,, yes you could sit atop a mountain peak or bottom of a valley,, and pick up a trophy Sambar well in excess of accurate shot placement but ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
In that typical type terrain,, by the time you work into a sure shot position,, old mate Sambar would be long gone.
And besides, we are talking thermal,,,,,,,,, so what,,,, you stalk 1,300 meters up a mountainside in total darkness ???

Personally I think these manufacturers are throwing out these ?ridiculous detection/viewing ranges to get would be buyers sucked in,,, in a frenzy, only then to discover that using it is not necessarily a practical possibility.

We are all suckers to a certain degree of the wily tactics used these days by the cunning and "sailing close to the wind" advertisers of such products.

What say the masses ??

Not all are out there chasing a trophy sambar at night mate....Im happy to be able to see critters out at long range just to see whats out there.....I sit up on some large hills all night scanning for miles across valleys looking for dogs etc....Handy to know whats about and whats moving around at distances....see them coming in and what they are heading for and plot a course to cut them off at the pass.....I personally like the idea of being able to detect them out a far.....suits what i do...

Maybe not all, but I know three blokes who’ve so far bought them for “varminting”, didn’t take long for every one of them to use it for illegal night deer shooting.

You would be pretty naive if you think that doesnt happen, of course it happens.. but thats not what the question was......but even picking up a trophy stag you need to get pretty damn close to it with thermal to even get a decent look at the antlers, no way can you identify a stag at 1.5-2 kms away.....not even 500m away....except maybe if the stags in velvet....antlers might show up a bit then....

[niteowl]

I guess we really need to look at the original question - detection. Then look carefully at what that really means. We need to think about "DRI", detection, recognition and identification, on the whole.
Yes detection is always the big thing in impressing the punters, but is really of no importance in real terms.
Going back to "DRI" these figures are VERY loose as they come from the Johnson Criterior, (If I have spelt it right !) They are CALCULATED figures, NOTHING else, and have a range between 50% and 90% chance of achieving the desired result. On top of that they are massively effected by the prevailing atmospheric conditions at the time of use. Usually, but not always, are quoted halfway between the two extremes.

Detection is only a few pixels of a human size figure 1.75 x 0.5 m, unless specified as some other, such as a NATO target of 2.3 x 2.3 M at an appropriate distance.
Recognition is that you see what it is NOT who it is.
Identification, again not who but maybe a good guy with a "rake" or a military man with a "gun", all based on military origins. .
I have many discussions with people over all this.
While we are talking about advertising, we need to look at some very questionable figures regarding sensitivity.
The industry standard is to test a sensor with an f1.0 lens on a heated black target at 30 degrees C. To obtain a great figure it is known that some "manufacturers" use targets at 40, 50 and even 60 Deg which gives you a spectacular figure of say, 25 millikelvins against the industry standard of 40 - 50 mK.
But, people are impressed by the figures. There is NO WAY that anyone is able to just look through the device and see the difference, if indeed it really did exist. It is only a few one thousandths of one degree.

My comments on the above post still stand though.
Brinny is quite correct regarding deer antlers.

[albat]

Some good points mentioned here, really depends on what you use them for and especially the terrain I use a mid range scope it's plenty sensitive enough out to a kilometer for a large heat source but I only shoot out to 100m might not be able to see all the hairs on the deers back but who cares you can place a shot accurately enough and identify without any doubt and see what's behind for a kilometer, glad I didn't spend anymore!

[Wapiti]

From only a primary production use perspective, and my own experience which may not suit anyone else, a few things.
In a hand-held, it's very advantageous to have a unit clear enough and with a detection range to see the heat signature and outline of the animal crisp enough so you can identify it.
Example, the characteristics of a pig is way different from a dog, and the way it moves, but a pig mooching along amongst a mob of sheep is not so easy, although the heat signatures are different (if you have your contrast down a bit to see that difference).
Or there may be deer fighting on each side of a fence, wrecking it, what are they? having a detection range that shows a crisp image as far out as the terrain characteristics allows. In thick or treed grazing land, not such a big need.
The main thing is experience, knowing the outline characteristics of what you are looking at.
If you are a casual weekend hunter, with the time to find something way out and not be able to tell what it is, and enjoy trying to sneak up on it to find out, that's great fun, but if you are flat out 10hrs a day on farm issues then are out at night trying to solve feral problems, immediate ID as far out as the terrain allows is a big deal.
Shooting towards, or at stock animals, or habitation, is a despicable sin and must never happen.
And sneaking up on a calf that you think might be a pig is a fail.

But using a unit that is a scope, not a hand-held, all this is different because it does not need that range because although I would fire a shot at an animal everyday, my ability is that in the field, at night, a shot at 300m is just BS and does not happen and muffed shots at stock-killing animals is not acceptable for me. Just the same, I never need to use a range finding function, because every shot is within the point-blank range of the cartridge and my ability to hold on target at night.
Although it might be a luxury, using a rifle mounted unit in observation and scanning mode is as tiring and annoying as I was told it was, with a handheld with long detection/positive ID range what spots the animal I need to be sorting out the best option by far.

[Die Judicii]

From only a primary production use perspective, and my own experience which may not suit anyone else, a few things.
In a hand-held, it's very advantageous to have a unit clear enough and with a detection range to see the heat signature and outline of the animal crisp enough so you can identify it.
Example, the characteristics of a pig is way different from a dog, and the way it moves, but a pig mooching along amongst a mob of sheep is not so easy, although the heat signatures are different (if you have your contrast down a bit to see that difference).
Or there may be deer fighting on each side of a fence, wrecking it, what are they? having a detection range that shows a crisp image as far out as the terrain characteristics allows. In thick or treed grazing land, not such a big need.
The main thing is experience, knowing the outline characteristics of what you are looking at.
If you are a casual weekend hunter, with the time to find something way out and not be able to tell what it is, and enjoy trying to sneak up on it to find out, that's great fun, but if you are flat out 10hrs a day on farm issues then are out at night trying to solve feral problems, immediate ID as far out as the terrain allows is a big deal.
Shooting towards, or at stock animals, or habitation, is a despicable sin and must never happen.
And sneaking up on a calf that you think might be a pig is a fail.

But using a unit that is a scope, not a hand-held, all this is different because it does not need that range because although I would fire a shot at an animal everyday, my ability is that in the field, at night, a shot at 300m is just BS and does not happen and muffed shots at stock-killing animals is not acceptable for me. Just the same, I never need to use a range finding function, because every shot is within the point-blank range of the cartridge and my ability to hold on target at night.
Although it might be a luxury, using a rifle mounted unit in observation and scanning mode is as tiring and annoying as I was told it was, with a handheld with long detection/positive ID range what spots the animal I need to be sorting out the best option by far.

I beg to differ,,,,,,, it does happen.
This fox is proof positive.
Shot with .223 on a moonless night, using Pulsar CORE FXQ 50 clip on at lasered range of 293 meters

100_5748.JPG (253.41 KiB) Viewed 3554 times

[Wapiti]

There's always exceptions too, good work there.
I don't have that ability personally.
Animals never give me the time to range them at night, not can I hold steady enough at that range.

[Die Judicii]

There's always exceptions too, good work there.
I don't have that ability personally.
Animals never give me the time to range them at night, not can I hold steady enough at that range.

When I shot that fox, I had no "thermal" range finding ability.
It wasn't until daylight when I used the day laser to find out the distance.
After posting this reply, I got to thinking about "long shots" under thermal, and went back to my recent post reporting when I got the "used to be pups", and yep the first kill for the night was the dog at 285 meters, followed by the bitch at just over that. Hence the edit.

Plus this one in the pic,, (one of three shot in one night) that I got on 18/03/2020.
Come daylight I found and picked up the first two of them but could not find the third.
The property owner found it by nose on the 20th.
The reason why I couldn't find it was because I wasn't looking far enough out.
Once found we lasered it from where I had shot it that night, and by memory it was a bit over 300 meters, in between lantana bushes.

100_5595 (2).JPG (711.79 KiB) Viewed 3476 times