Folding stocks

[Shootermick]

So does that mean that a factory longarm off the shelf at 65cm is legal, but one that has been shortened, in this case with a folding stock, under 75cm but is still over 65cm is illegal?

I think it would be, but do they allow anything that short to be sold here?

They do but barrels are under 400mm.

Alfa proj comes to mind with 12 inch barrel
Here’s another. https://www.cleaverfirearms.com/Products.aspx?Category=Rifles&Brand=428

It’s like even the loopholes in the act are rigged to explode your brain

A lot of regulations seem to contradict themselves.
But, as a side note…
Even though I wouldn’t buy a revolving carbine, how does the 22lr perform out of a 12” barrel? 16-18” seems to be the most popular optimum length.

[stihl88]

Great topic, been watching and reading with interest!.

To summarise, is the following definition the only section from the Act which may be drawn on when determining that a firearm may be "prohibited", changing a Cat A/B firearm to a Cat E if it's <750mm in length parallel to the barrel at any point in time i.e. folded stock?

Cat E.png (31.87 KiB) Viewed 8068 times

Does this vague clause make Cat A/B firearms Cat E when <750mm in length in one or more of the following scenarios;
- Break actions (Shotguns, Rifles) measuring <750mm when folded i.e. when transporting, reloading or cleaning.
- A firearm with it's stock removed for various reasons.
- Upper/Lower receiver separation or full chassis, action breakdown for cleaning purposes.
- Barrel swap, upper receiver swap.

It's interesting to note that a Cat A "Airgun" seems to slip past this <750mm clause as it is not defined as being a "shotgun or rifle" as per Cat E definition.

So how do we interpret the Act in reference to folding stocks???
- Is it simply the firearms length at any given time if <750mm it is prohibited; or
- Is it assumed that 750mm is only relevant when the firearm is in full functioning fire ready mode given the aforementioned examples; or
- Is it simply a section of the act that's been misinterpreted by all and sundry and it's literal meaning is "any Shoutgun or Rifle measuring <750mm in it's fully opened, designed operational position is a Cat E"

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A question that's come to mind recently is whether the Law Tactical Folding Stock Adapter can be used in Victoria on the Oceania Precision Cat B SP15-TAC as it will render the firearm <750mm in length while in the folded state.

The benefits of the adapter are;
- Boresighting, eliminating unsafe stray rounds
- Barrel cleaning while in the field
- Portability backpack/field rifle akin to a Break Action open when in the fully folded position.

The SP15-TAC has a spring assisted bolt carrier which extends into the buffer tube engaging with the buffer spring to function/cycle, with the stock in the folded position the firearm is rendered inoperable until it has been fully un-folded particularly as the bolt lever is concealed and inaccessible while in the folded position also meaning it still cannot be cycled until un-folded.

A distinction between the Law Tactical adapter and the MDT adapter is that the MDT is still fully functional when in the folded position.

Law Tactical Folder.jpg (371.8 KiB) Viewed 8068 times

MDT Folding Adapter.jpg (180.3 KiB) Viewed 8068 times

A Devil's Advocate Scenario
LRD do a spot inspection, notice SP15-TAC has been fitted with the folding stock adapter which would make rifle <750mm while in folded position, they question if firearm owner is an approved CAT E license holder, they are not so LRD deem the firearm prohibited.

A challenge could be made in that the rifle is currently in the fully un-folded position so therefore is not currently <750mm and therefore is not in the alleged "Cat E" state and that it's primary purpose is when used in conjunction with/when the upper has been removed from the lower with the stock folded for transportation reasons (i.e. aeroplane luggage etc). The LRD officer would only need to look in the safe and beside it is a .410 Break Action shotgun fully folded and <750mm, beside the .410 is a .12g with it's barrel removed for stowage reasons it's also currently <750mm in this state then beside .12g is a .222 with it's stock removed waiting for a new lightweight chassis to arrive, it is also <750mm. Last but not least there's a .45-70 with a stock that recently broke and sheared off making it well below 750mm while it awaits a new wooden stock.

So it seems there's plenty of conflicting scenarios that challenge this CAT E clause and it's true intent requires clarification in that is it merely intended to STOP firearms from being <750mm while in their it's fully operable state?

[Shootermick]

So….whilst not a folding stock as such. Why is a rifle like the Chiapa little badger ok. It’s like 17” or something folded in half. Or is is ok because you can’t fire it when it’s folded up.?

[bladeracer]

A challenge could be made in that the rifle is currently in the fully un-folded position so therefore is not currently <750mm and therefore is not in the alleged "Cat E" state and that it's primary purpose is when used in conjunction with/when the upper has been removed from the lower with the stock folded for transportation reasons (i.e. aeroplane luggage etc).

I believe it is irrelevant whether it is folded, it gives the rifle the _ability_ to be readily made shorter than the legislation allows, while still being fireable. I have folding stocks but I don't install them on some of my carbines as it would make them illegal, they are fine on most of my rifles. I suppose it would be very easy to fabricate a spacer that would make a carbine 752mm in length while folded, and a collapsible M4 stock would be short enough to not be an obnoxiously long length of pull with the spacer. I haven't had to do this as I find the carbines compact enough just with the collapsible stocks, but it could be an option.

One annoyance with the MDT chassis design is that it adds length to the receiver, so a carbine buffer tube becomes as long as a rifle buffer tube, and a rifle buffer tube gives a very long length of pull indeed.

[bladeracer]

So….whilst not a folding stock as such. Why is a rifle like the Chiapa little badger ok. It’s like 17” or something folded in half. Or is is ok because you can’t fire it when it’s folded up.?

That is my understanding, if it can't be fired the "box of bits" can be made as short as you like.

[stihl88]

I believe it is irrelevant whether it is folded, it gives the rifle the _ability_ to be readily made shorter than the legislation allows, while still being fireable. I have folding stocks but I don't install them on some of my carbines as it would make them illegal, they are fine on most of my rifles. I suppose it would be very easy to fabricate a spacer that would make a carbine 752mm in length while folded, and a collapsible M4 stock would be short enough to not be an obnoxiously long length of pull with the spacer. I haven't had to do this as I find the carbines compact enough just with the collapsible stocks, but it could be an option.

One annoyance with the MDT chassis design is that it adds length to the receiver, so a carbine buffer tube becomes as long as a rifle buffer tube, and a rifle buffer tube gives a very long length of pull indeed.

So just to clarify, the Law Tactical folding stock adapter is not fireable whilst folded and is designed specifically for the AR15 platform requiring the stock to be back in the unfolded position before the bolt carrier group (BCG) can engage therefore it cannot be fired while folded. In contrast a firearm fitted with an MDT adapter can be fired whether folded or not.

There are of course aftermarket BCG such as the ARIC which enable the AR to be fired whilst the stock is in the folded position.

Interestingly the RAB-AD (Rapid Attach Buttstock Adapter has just come onto the market. Once again the stock needs to be fully attached before the BCG can be engaged and the weapon made fireable.

RAB-AD_7__62241.jpg (156.65 KiB) Viewed 7682 times

Alternatively if these options are deemed unacceptable then the only way around it appears to install QR pins to take down the upper/lower. There's also the Cry Havoc QD Barrel removal attachment which is pretty slick...!

Cry Havoc.jpg (76.61 KiB) Viewed 7682 times

[bladeracer]

As we can't own AR15's on CatB licences I don't see the relevance to folding stocks on them. The AR's can't be fired while folded because the bolt has to be able to recoil down the buffer tube, repeating rifles don't have that issue.

If you qualify to own an AR15 in Australia I doubt folding stocks are even regulated on CatD rifles.

My folders on my MDT chassis can still be fired while folded, but the 22" barrels mean they are still legal length, that's why I don't put them on my carbines.

So just to clarify, the Law Tactical folding stock adapter is not fireable whilst folded and is designed specifically for the AR15 platform requiring the stock to be back in the unfolded position before the bolt carrier group (BCG) can engage therefore it cannot be fired while folded. In contrast a firearm fitted with an MDT adapter can be fired whether folded or not.

There are of course aftermarket BCG such as the ARIC which enable the AR to be fired whilst the stock is in the folded position.

Interestingly the RAB-AD (Rapid Attach Buttstock Adapter has just come onto the market. Once again the stock needs to be fully attached before the BCG can be engaged and the weapon made fireable.

RAB-AD_7__62241.jpg

Alternatively if these options are deemed unacceptable then the only way around it appears to install QR pins to take down the upper/lower. There's also the Cry Havoc QD Barrel removal attachment which is pretty slick...!

Cry Havoc.jpg

[bladeracer]

A 16" 10/22 Compact is only 34" (864mm) overall, which is pretty short already, the 18.5" carbine is 37" (940mm) overall. With the 18" barrel my Ruger American Compact is 908mm (35.75") in the original stock, but in the MDT chassis with adjustable stock it's significantly shorter when it's telescoped. I'd have to measure how short it is but probably just under 800mm I would guess. With the iron sights I actually prefer the sight picture with it telescoped all the way in, but the length of pull is very short. Maybe just order a 16" barrel and the Compact stock for yours as that knocks three-inches off it.

Was reading back through the thread and saw this. As I happen to have the MDT Ruger American 18" in-hand I just measured it with the stock collapsed at 880mm overall with no muzzle device. With the stock removed from the carbine buffer tube it's 857mm, with the buffer tube removed it's 690mm overall.

[Tomotron]

From the Firearms Act 1996 (Vic), any rifle or shotgun under 75 centimetres is a Cat E firearm.

category E longarm means any of the
following—
(a) a machine gun that is a longarm;
(b) a tear gas gun or projector;
(c) a shotgun or rifle with a length of less
than 75 centimetres measured parallel
to the barrel;

[stihl88]

As we can't own AR15's on CatB licences I don't see the relevance to folding stocks on them. The AR's can't be fired while folded because the bolt has to be able to recoil down the buffer tube, repeating rifles don't have that issue.

If you qualify to own an AR15 in Australia I doubt folding stocks are even regulated on CatD rifles.

My folders on my MDT chassis can still be fired while folded, but the 22" barrels mean they are still legal length, that's why I don't put them on my carbines.

Yeah I've got a unique situation in that the folder is intended for the SP15 -TAC (CatB) which is unique in this discussion as it's pretty much the only CatB firearm that functions similar to an AR (think buffer tube, BCG etc) and it's furniture can be switched out with standard AR-15 options (Stock, Handguard, Buffer Tube and Pistol Grip etc).

The act simply states that a Category E Longarm is classed as Category E if it has a "length of less than 75 centimeters measured parallel to the barrel" Folding stocks are not mentioned in the Act hence why we can own them so we tend to leverage this 750mm clause to avoid breaching this clause when fitting on shorter firearms as you say.

The quandary here is that once must interpret that it's ok to "temporarily breach" this 750mm clause during certain operations such as reloading or transport (prime example = Chiappa which is 420mm fully folded) as the firearm cannot be fired during this operation and must be fully unfolded bringing it above the minimum 750mm OAL before it can be operated. The SP15-Tac fitted with a Law-Tac folder is akin to this example.

Otherwise merely separating the upper from the lower or removing the buffer tube assembly from the firearm for maintenance purposes or removal of the buffer tube assembly for spring changes and maintenance would not be allowed on the SP15-Tac as it would instantly class it a CatE longarm due to the owner reducing it to below 750mm OAL during this operation/s.

I know if I called LRD they would just say no you cant have one (Law-Tac) without offering explanation other than the standard 750mm OAL argument...

[womble]

No. If it's under length when folded, it's under .
But different states have different minimum lengths.
Besides if it was loaded before folded that gun could fire.
And lots of guns can fit AR hardware. Would be nice if provided an exception to the rules, but it doesn't.
And I can't think of any guns ever where the stock has to be removed for maintenance

[bladeracer]

The folder would be intended for the SP15 -TAC (CatB) which is unique in this discussion as it's pretty much the only CatB firearm that functions similar to an AR (think buffer tube etc), it's furniture can be switched out with standard AR-15 options (Stock, Handguard, Buffer Tube and Pistol Grip etc. It's the length which is the governing factor regardless of the firearm category (A,B, C or D), otherwise firearms under 650mm are determined as Cat E.

The question in my case is whether a Law Tac Folder can be fitted knowing that it will reduce the OAL to below 750mm whilst folded but cannot be fired unlike with the MDT folder or similar for traditional platforms which is where this whole "Folding Stock" discussion pretty much stems from. This makes the SP15-TAC akin to other CatA, B firearms in that at times they are mechanically under the 750mm OAL at given times (reloading etc) which can also not be fired during this operation when temporarily below this 750mm.

If we're pinning the 750mm clause as the pinnacle here then pretty much all firearms are rendered below 750mm (illegal) once their stock is removed for maintenance as they can still technically be fired.

Is the SP15 legal in Victoria already? I've never heard of it.
Yes, overall length and barrel length are the factors we have to comply with.
Does the folded stock actually prevent the rifle from firing or does it still allow a single shot to be fired?
You would be best served by writing to Firearms with details of the rifle and the stock and ask them if it is legal here.
I can't quote a law but I understand that NSW considers the stock "fixed" if it requires a "tool" to "unfix" it, a spanner, screwdriver, allen key, etc. You are correct that a lot of rifles can technically be fired with the buttstock removed, but most are very impractical to do so. A barrelled bolt-action can usually be fired without any stock at all. But I think this is stretching it beyond what the law requires.

I Googled it and it appears to come with a 16" barrel but doesn't give an overall length. Scaling off the screen (my M16 grips are 100mm in length) shows the barrel to be around 350mm (14") on the webpage, so the 16" is 52mm longer making it around 590mm from muzzle to back of the receiver. Depending on how bulky your folder attachment is (I found a photo of one of mine - it adds about 25-30mm to the back of the receiver when folded) the rifle is probably about 100mm to 140mm too short (assuming it can still be fired even if it doesn't cycle). If you put a 20" or 22" barrel in it it would probably be fine, or have a muzzle device welded onto the 16" barrel. You could even fabricate a spacer for the folder adapter to extend it out from the rear of the receiver to meet the required length but that could be an uncomfortable length of pull I think. I would discuss it with Oceania before ordering the rifle.

Personally, my carbines are short enough that I haven't found any need to put folders on them. With the collapsible M4 stock they state the overall length is more than 765mm minimum so I would just go with that rather than a folder.

[MontyShooter]

...And I can't think of any guns ever where the stock has to be removed for maintenance

Struggling to see how an RPR with a pinned buttstock could be cleaned without either removing the stock or going in from the other end. Mines a folder so not sure what 'pinned' really means but I have to fold my stock to get the bolt out and clean the barrel.

[stihl88]

No. If it's under length when folded, it's under .
But different states have different minimum lengths.
Besides if it was loaded before folded that gun could fire.
And lots of guns can fit AR hardware. Would be nice if provided an exception to the rules, but it doesn't.
And I can't think of any guns ever where the stock has to be removed for maintenance

Sorry mate, I edited my above post so there's been more context since you posted...

Yes you've found the only thing that may prevent the use of the LAW-Tac folder in that it can technically be fired single shot but that would be suicide and no advantage would be gained by doing so and the Law-Tac is most certainly not designed to be fired in this way and is completely unsafe to do so unless you felt like letting a small grenade off near your face that is. It's against manufacturers recommendations and even says so on the actual folder. One could argue that you could fold the Chiappa to it's minimum length of 420mm, load a round and hit it with a hammer and it will fire but it was not designed to do so and you've just turned it into a CatE firearm...

Although not common, I've removed the timber stock from many a firearm for maintenance/repairs, broken timber stock replacement, air rifle springs, PCP seal replacement, fitment of aftermarket triggers (Timny etc), MDT Chassis, glass bedding of factory stock and fitment of hardware such as ARCA rails bipod mount.

[bladeracer]

...And I can't think of any guns ever where the stock has to be removed for maintenance

Struggling to see how an RPR with a pinned buttstock could be cleaned without either removing the stock or going in from the other end. Mines a folder so not sure what 'pinned' really means but I have to fold my stock to get the bolt out and clean the barrel.

In NSW I believe the buttstock is "pinned" in place with a screw, requiring a tool to remove it for cleaning.

[bladeracer]

Yes you've found the only thing that may prevent the use of the LAW-Tac folder in that it can technically be fired single shot but that would be suicide and no advantage would be gained by doing so and the Law-Tac is most certainly not designed to be fired in this way and is completely unsafe to do so unless you felt like letting a small grenade off near your face that is. It's against manufacturers recommendations and even says so on the actual folder. One could argue that you could fold the Chiappa to it's minimum length of 420mm, load a round and hit it with a hammer and it will fire but it was not designed to do so and you've just turned it into a CatE firearm...

Although not common, I've removed the timber stock from many a firearm for maintenance/repairs, broken timber stock replacement, air rifle springs, PCP seal replacement, fitment of aftermarket triggers (Timny etc), MDT Chassis, glass bedding of factory stock and fitment of hardware such as ARCA rails bipod mount.

If it can be fired, even a single round, while folded then you have answered your own question, the firearm is entirely functional for all practical purposes thus must be more than 750mm in length when folded to be legal. Get a longer barrel and it won't be an issue.

[stihl88]

Is the SP15 legal in Victoria already? I've never heard of it.
Yes, overall length and barrel length are the factors we have to comply with.
Does the folded stock actually prevent the rifle from firing or does it still allow a single shot to be fired?
You would be best served by writing to Firearms with details of the rifle and the stock and ask them if it is legal here.
I can't quote a law but I understand that NSW considers the stock "fixed" if it requires a "tool" to "unfix" it, a spanner, screwdriver, allen key, etc. You are correct that a lot of rifles can technically be fired with the buttstock removed, but most are very impractical to do so. A barrelled bolt-action can usually be fired without any stock at all. But I think this is stretching it beyond what the law requires.

I Googled it and it appears to come with a 16" barrel but doesn't give an overall length. Scaling off the screen (my M16 grips are 100mm in length) shows the barrel to be around 350mm (14") on the webpage, so the 16" is 52mm longer making it around 590mm from muzzle to back of the receiver. Depending on how bulky your folder attachment is (I found a photo of one of mine - it adds about 25-30mm to the back of the receiver when folded) the rifle is probably about 100mm to 140mm too short (assuming it can still be fired even if it doesn't cycle). If you put a 20" or 22" barrel in it it would probably be fine, or have a muzzle device welded onto the 16" barrel. You could even fabricate a spacer for the folder adapter to extend it out from the rear of the receiver to meet the required length but that could be an uncomfortable length of pull I think. I would discuss it with Oceania before ordering the rifle.

Personally, my carbines are short enough that I haven't found any need to put folders on them. With the collapsible M4 stock they state the overall length is more than 765mm minimum so I would just go with that rather than a folder.

The Oceania Precision SP15-TAC is fully legal in Victoria and is CatB. The 14" variant is 785mm OAL with buttstock fully collapsed. So fitment of the Law-Tac brings it under the 750mm when folded and yes it can be fired single shot when folded (entirely stupid, dangerous and unlawful) which has been the only reason I've hesitated to get one otherwise they are perfectly legal if 750mm is retained when folded...

Was thinking of adding muzzle brake and spacers however as it's barely above the 750mm anyway there's no real gain to be had.

This is purely for transport as I want it as light weight and compact as possible, having a quick deployment option for when travelling strapped to backpack when hunting is the primary reason as well as made compact and tucking away inside the backpack or case for when "not in use".

Other options I'm exploring which I believe would still comply (cannot be fired while temporarily below the 750mm limit) in order from preferred to least preferred are;

1. QR barrel removal adapter (as previously posted);
2. Folding Barrel Adapter;
3. QR 2 pin Upper; or
4. Pistol Brace (to claw back that small 35mm wriggle room I have).

[bladeracer]

The Oceania Precision SP15-TAC is fully legal in Victoria and is CatB. The 14" variant is 785mm OAL with buttstock fully collapsed. So fitment of the Law-Tac brings it under the 750mm when folded and yes it can be fired single shot when folded (entirely stupid, dangerous and unlawful) which has been the only reason I've hesitated to get one otherwise they are perfectly legal if 750mm is retained when folded...

Was thinking of adding muzzle brake and spacers however as it's barely above the 750mm anyway there's no real gain to be had.

This is purely for transport as I want it as light weight and compact as possible, having a quick deployment option for when travelling strapped to backpack when hunting is the primary reason as well as made compact and tucking away inside the backpack or case for when "not in use".

Other options I'm exploring which I believe would still comply (cannot be fired while temporarily below the 750mm limit) in order from preferred to least preferred are;

1. QR barrel removal adapter (as previously posted);
2. Folding Barrel Adapter;
3. QR 2 pin Upper; or
4. Pistol Brace (to claw back that small 35mm wriggle room I have).

I wouldn't say it's stupid or dangerous that it can be fired when folded, you'd have to be on the stupid side to have a round chambered when the rifle is not configured ready to be fired.

I agree with you that a folder is entirely unnecessary when the rifle is so short anyway. If you really must shorten it for packing just unscrew the whole buffer tube. It's very easy, and quick to reassemble. With the buffer tube removed the rifle should be no more than 600mm long, but as with the folder it can still be fired so make sure you use the castle nut spanner and carry it with you any time you think you might want to separate it. I like the folders in the bush, but those are 22" barrels, so are quite long with fixed stocks, even collapsible M4 stocks. With the rifle hanging down my front on the single-point sling I just fold the stock in between it and my chest and it can be very quickly flipped out when I need it. But the side-folders add weight and width, and aren't as rigid as a fixed stock so they're far from ideal. In the bush I can live with the downsides as I spend a lot more time carrying it than actually shooting it.

I personally would not be investing that heavily into something that could be banned overnight, as happened with the Warwick a few years ago. People bought them, had permits approved, were shooting them, and Police decided they shouldn't have them after all. But I also prefer a bolt-action rifle when I need to be able to depend upon it.

[stihl88]

Well i would not attempt to do so myself particularly with a SAAMI MAP 55,00 psi round in the chamber. Each to their own...!

Unfortunately it's not as easy as unscrewing the buffer and the process is far from quick or ideal and requires the upper to be removed first. Here's a good video on the somewhat arduous process https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OsuO4z ... otTactical

The Warwick WFA1-L is currently legal under CatA/B license in Vic and to the best of my knowledge has never been banned in Vic, a few other states it's not legal due to appearance laws but i don't think the Chief Commissioner although has the power to recategorise a firearm due to appearance here in Victoria has done so yet hence why the SP15-TAC and WFA1-L remain CatB.

Not too worried about the appearance laws, if anything they're being relaxed in one or more states where these AR style platforms may hopefully be legal under CatA/B in the near future...

In reality they're nonsensical and reading between the lines are imposed to stop civilians from owning what law enforcement currently use even though they don't behave like theirs. Besides I can technically own an ex-military rifle .303 or a current looking military rifle such as bullpup PCP air rifle which can even shoot semi-auto .25cal rounds expressing same muzzle energy as .22LR and is CatA and legal. Hell, if you add a pistol grip to your longarm in some states that could technically mean it is non-compliant under appearance laws due to pistol grips being used in the military.

If anything the appearance laws are relaxing in one or more states where these AR style platforms may hopefully be legal under CatA/B in the near future...

[bladeracer]

Well i would not attempt to do so myself particularly with a SAAMI MAP 55,00 psi round in the chamber. Each to their own...!

Unfortunately it's not as easy as unscrewing the buffer and the process is far from quick or ideal and requires the upper to be removed first. Here's a good video on the somewhat arduous process https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OsuO4z ... otTactical

The Warwick WFA1-L is currently legal under CatA/B license in Vic and to the best of my knowledge has never been banned in Vic, a few other states it's not legal due to appearance laws but i don't think the Chief Commissioner although has the power to recategorise a firearm due to appearance here in Victoria has done so yet hence why the SP15-TAC and WFA1-L remain CatB.

Not too worried about the appearance laws, if anything they're being relaxed in one or more states where these AR style platforms may hopefully be legal under CatA/B in the near future...

In reality they're nonsensical and reading between the lines are imposed to stop civilians from owning what law enforcement currently use even though they don't behave like theirs. Besides I can technically own an ex-military rifle .303 or a current looking military rifle such as bullpup PCP air rifle which can even shoot semi-auto .25cal rounds expressing same muzzle energy as .22LR and is CatA and legal. Hell, if you add a pistol grip to your longarm in some states that could technically mean it is non-compliant under appearance laws due to pistol grips being used in the military.

If anything the appearance laws are relaxing in one or more states where these AR style platforms may hopefully be legal under CatA/B in the near future...

The bolt being locked into the barrel extension is what retains the combustion pressure, not the receiver, that's why the receiver is aluminium. Recoil of the bolt happens after the pressure drops and the bullet has left the muzzle, but it would still recoil with a degree of force.

As for the laws, logic hasn't fixed any of our laws so far so I wouldn't be relying on that as a defence
As WA just did, if Police decide they don't want us to have something they can and will simply ban it and let us come up with the funds to try to fight them over it...after we've disposed of the firearms.

[womble]

...And I can't think of any guns ever where the stock has to be removed for maintenance

Struggling to see how an RPR with a pinned buttstock could be cleaned without either removing the stock or going in from the other end. Mines a folder so not sure what 'pinned' really means but I have to fold my stock to get the bolt out and clean the barrel.

Yep fair point, didn’t think of those.
Would not be an ideal choice of rifle if your state insisted on pinning it.

[stihl88]

The bolt being locked into the barrel extension is what retains the combustion pressure, not the receiver, that's why the receiver is aluminium. Recoil of the bolt happens after the pressure drops and the bullet has left the muzzle, but it would still recoil with a degree of force.

As for the laws, logic hasn't fixed any of our laws so far so I wouldn't be relying on that as a defence
As WA just did, if Police decide they don't want us to have something they can and will simply ban it and let us come up with the funds to try to fight them over it...after we've disposed of the firearms.

Yes fair point but on a typical AR there's still quite a bit of pressure used to operate the BCG. It uses about 15,000 psi to simultaneously drive forward the extractor a smidge to relieve pressure from the lugs just prior to driving the BCG back, before going into battery. Not sure how Oceania has dealt with this or how much PSI it takes to extract a spent cartridge on the SP15 (will have to get trigger pull scale out and test) particularly if the stock is folded and there's zero buffer spring tension. Either way I wouldn't fire it with a folded stock. It's possible on the Law-Tac but you need the ARIC BCG for this...

I'm hearing you about the laws but I guess one way to look at it is in theory they could and some factions within government are trying to...remove access to all firearms so on that notion I refuse to let it drive what I should or shouldn't own.

There's a lot of Camels in WA that one could justify using .50cal BMG on for humane purposes. Perhaps not all people should have access to it however feral pest animal management should be one exception.

[stihl88]

So a minor update on this topic.

I've been speaking with experts in the industry (gunsmiths, firearm manufacturers) and one thing that keeps being mentioned is that "rifles can legally be disassembled for cleaning and transport in the same way a bolt action can be removed from it's stock or have it's barrel removed".

Disassembly in most cases requires the stock (whether timber of in my case buffer tube) to be removed therefore rendering the rifle less than 750mm in length which as mentioned is perfectly legal to do. In both cases the stocks can be removed and the firearm is still technically fireable when below this 750mm envelope.

Some states here and overseas require the buffer Castle nut to be "staked", I would imagine there's further supporting legislation in these states that say that the "stocks cannot be removed and must be staked", in Victoria I've not seen such legislation. Therefore if it's determined that one cannot own a Law-Tac folder or the RAB-AD based on a loose interpretation of the 750mm clause then that would mean a traditional BA rifle with timber stock and similar chassis should also have their securing mechanisms "staked" or welded to prevent them from being operatable whilst below the 750mm envelope or an update to the legislation saying stocks cannot be removed for any purpose...

It's probably fair to say that this clause regarding firearms being CatE which are less than 750mm are designed for short concealable rifles, pistols, LMG's etc otherwise we would not be allowed to disassemble most CatA, B, C and D for cleaning and transport without breach of the Act;

Therefore this leads to the conclusion that the Law-Tac or Stern Defense RAB-AD stocks might be legal to use on rifles so long as the final OAL is greater than 750mm when it's stock is fully engaged/parallel with the rifle and the only time it can be folded/removed (disassembled) is for cleaning, transport, maintenance purposes and the Bolt and any ammunition should be removed prior to this function.

[bladeracer]

Write to Firearms, tell them the rifle and stock and ask them if it's legal, that's really the only answer you need. Police will either allow it or they won't. If they say no, and you desperately have to have then you can try appealing it.

I haven't seen any law requiring the castle nut to be staked, in any state. If they did that they might as well demand that all action screws must also be staked since removing a conventional full-length wood stock gives the same result as removing the buffer tube, a firearm that can still be fired but is very unwieldy to do so. The Winchester 9422 separates into two halves with removing a single screw, very handy for packing, but it can't fired as the trigger group stays in the butt stock half. On the other hand, the Henry H001 can still be fired after removing the buttstock, and cycled normally through the entire magazine, as the grip remains the same regardless - it basically becomes a "Mares Leg".

Personally, this rifle is so short I wouldn't be interested in putting a folder on it anyway, folders are handier on full-length rifles. If I wanted to fit it into a pack I'd remove the buffer tube/stock as an assembly and reattach it in the field. I'm regularly swapping them among different rifles, it takes no more than a minute to do.

So a minor update on this topic.

I've been speaking with experts in the industry (gunsmiths, firearm manufacturers) and one thing that keeps being mentioned is that "rifles can legally be disassembled for cleaning and transport in the same way a bolt action can be removed from it's stock or have it's barrel removed".

Disassembly in most cases requires the stock (whether timber of in my case buffer tube) to be removed therefore rendering the rifle less than 750mm in length which as mentioned is perfectly legal to do. In both cases the stocks can be removed and the firearm is still technically fireable when below this 750mm envelope.

Some states here and overseas require the buffer Castle nut to be "staked", I would imagine there's further supporting legislation in these states that say that the "stocks cannot be removed and must be staked", in Victoria I've not seen such legislation. Therefore if it's determined that one cannot own a Law-Tac folder or the RAB-AD based on a loose interpretation of the 750mm clause then that would mean a traditional BA rifle with timber stock and similar chassis should also have their securing mechanisms "staked" or welded to prevent them from being operatable whilst below the 750mm envelope or an update to the legislation saying stocks cannot be removed for any purpose...

It's probably fair to say that this clause regarding firearms being CatE which are less than 750mm are designed for short concealable rifles, pistols, LMG's etc otherwise we would not be allowed to disassemble most CatA, B, C and D for cleaning and transport without breach of the Act;

Therefore this leads to the conclusion that the Law-Tac or Stern Defense RAB-AD stocks might be legal to use on rifles so long as the final OAL is greater than 750mm when it's stock is fully engaged/parallel with the rifle and the only time it can be folded/removed (disassembled) is for cleaning, transport, maintenance purposes and the Bolt and any ammunition should be removed prior to this function.

[womble]

I don’t think you can reasonably interpret folded being the same as disassembled or removed .
Telescopic beats folded any day of the week. And as said that’s easy enough to disassemble for transport.
Personally I wouldn’t anyway. Because if for some reason, however unlikely, a country copper checks my vehicle and pulls out a rifle with just a pistol grip he won’t be much interested in a long winded explanation. And even more disinterested in arguing interpretations of firearms law.
So you’re going to court to get your gun back.

If you want a handy pack rifle there are others you could consider. Some modern takedown lever actions with short barrels are very compact. Their intended purpose is pack rifle.
Below are all legal and sold in Aus. Got all your mainstream calibres covered.







Nice little 22 sold from the Barn in Toowoomba, bolt action

[stihl88]

@Bladeracer
Yes most of my timber stock firearms can have their stocks removed with one or two screws and still be fired. I think that removing the buffer tube is the same as installing a folder or QD stock, it can still be fired. I can't be certain but I thought I read/heard that in NSW or QLD the stocks had to be staked...

In the meantime I'll continue to separate the upper from the lower for transport although this isn't the preferred option. Alternatively, I'll look into the Cry Havoc QD barrel adapter which I wanted to avoid due to costs and small MOA shift but it will be the most compliant of the lot.

@Womble
I agree on the folder in that it's more a function rather than disassembly, I'm leaning more to toward the RAB-AD QD stock now anyway, cheaper and performs the function I'm after without the bulky folder...

Unfortunately the telescopic on these still cannot be reduced below about 785mm on my machine.

Yes that's my concern that a local or DFO might interpret their own ruling and seize the rifle. Anyway I wont pull the trigger on one yet, I've got a mate who was head of one of the bigger DFO's for a while so will see what he has to say about it all.

I like that last one you posted, very nice specs and really well thought out machine. A shame it doesn't come in different calibers!

[bladeracer]

Alternatively, I'll look into the Cry Havoc QD barrel adapter which I wanted to avoid due to costs and small MOA shift but it will be the most compliant of the lot.

I had a look at the QRB and it looks neat, but for US$400 that's a lot of money to add to an already overpriced rifle, especially a rifle that is already very compact. Do you know if they'll ship it to Australia?

Unfortunately the telescopic on these still cannot be reduced below about 785mm on my machine.

If you really needed to get it down to the 760mm minimum you could cut some off the back of the buffer tube and front of the stock to reduce it further.

[stihl88]

Yeah it's nice, there are a few other take down adapters but the Cry-Havoc has the better RTZ. The Leo Takedown is nice but requires a bit more Loctite than I'd prefer http://www.leotakedown.com/product/leo-takedown/ and there's the Dolos but I'm not as keen on that.

Brownells.com haven't placed a "restrictions" tag on it however Opticsplanet has the ITAR & Gov Restriction in place.

[bladeracer]

Yeah it's nice, there are a few other take down adapters but the Cry-Havoc has the better RTZ. The Leo Takedown is nice but requires a bit more Loctite than I'd prefer http://www.leotakedown.com/product/leo-takedown/ and there's the Dolos but I'm not as keen on that.

Brownells.com haven't placed a "restrictions" tag on it however Opticsplanet has the ITAR & Gov Restriction in place.

Email Bruce at Brownells.com.au then and see if he can get it in for you.