Should we anneal our brass?

[Oldbloke]

You be the judge.
Personally I anneal.

https://youtu.be/BCRIw1PQOK4?si=T558APi6JzrB3QfU

[Larry]

Two reasons I anneal. first is to try and get a consistent neck tension. In order to improve accuracy. Second is to prolong the life of the brass.

[bigpete]

Never have. I've reloaded some cases 10 times or more. At the rate I shoot I lose them long before I would need to anneal them

[bladeracer]

You be the judge.
Personally I anneal.

https://youtu.be/BCRIw1PQOK4?si=T558APi6JzrB3QfU

For 99.5% of us I would say no, especially for pistol shooters.

Most brass is common and fairly inexpensive so the extra cost and effort of annealing probably isn't worth it, get your 10 or 20 loads out of it and replace it with new stuff.

If you're loading moderate loads then the necks will probably start hardening and splitting after ten or twenty loads, and annealing will extend the life of the brass. But for common brass it may just be quicker and simpler to replace it after a while anyway.

If you are loading for a rear-locking action (like a Lee Enfield .303) then it's quite likely the case body will fail before the necks start splitting, so again, annealing really won't extend the life of your brass.

If you run your brass hot then there is also little point as you'll probably lose the primer pockets long before the necks start splitting or hardening.

If you are loading some wildcat that takes time and effort to form the brass, or you're shooting some sort of Weatherby chambering that costs $6 per case to replace, then it may well be worth annealing.

Now, if you're loading for maximum precision then there can be an advantage in annealing every time to give maximum consistency in grip of the bullet.

[Wm.Traynor]

Two reasons I anneal. first is to try and get a consistent neck tension. In order to improve accuracy. Second is to prolong the life of the brass.

This sums up why I have started.
p.s. after 69 years

[GQshayne]

Never have. I've reloaded some cases 10 times or more. At the rate I shoot I lose them long before I would need to anneal them

Me too.

There are no doubt some calibres or situations where I would need to change my methods, but as a hunter that doen not use any wildcats I see no use for it.

[JohnV]

The need is different for different people . I find 223 brass does not need much annealing but the bigger cases do improve accuracy after an anneal . If you are only getting 5 or 6 reloads before the primer pocket expands too much then annealing is a mute point really . If you get 10 to 20 or more in an accurate cartridge that is maybe used to shoot targets or comp then it is worth annealing after say 5 reloads . There is no hard rule . When I anneal 223 brass I don't see much improvement in accuracy but when I anneal the 308 brass then I can see a tightening of the group after annealing . Having said that what die systems you use has a big effect on how quick the brass will work harden and an expander ball FLS die will harden case necks quicker than a Lee Collet die or a bushing die .
There is quite a few variables in whole annealing idea and what suits one reloader might not suit another . I never had a rigid annealing program . I tended to anneal the bigger cases when I cast shot and slugs .

[deye243]

You be the judge.
Personally I anneal.

https://youtu.be/BCRIw1PQOK4?si=T558APi6JzrB3QfU

Nope ...... I get 16 loads before I need to push the shoulder back and lose primer pockets before any neck problems.

[Blr243]

If I had some brass that was super expensive and I wanted to preserve its longevity. Yes And if the brass felt so much nicer when sizing , maybe if I had time My 357 450 Bm and 4570 obviously no need. My brass supply is up there , always plenty of cheap second hand brass available in the common cals I use …243 270 308.

[in2anity]

Two reasons I anneal. first is to try and get a consistent neck tension. In order to improve accuracy. Second is to prolong the life of the brass.

This.

[Larry]

A big big condition on annealing however is that it really only adds value if you can anneal each case consistently as the previous case. Otherwise you are making a bigger mess of the brass than you started with when they were all hard and stiff. at least they were all the same.

[JohnV]

A big big condition on annealing however is that it really only adds value if you can anneal each case consistently as the previous case. Otherwise you are making a bigger mess of the brass than you started with when they were all hard and stiff. at least they were all the same.

All case necks in a batch do not harden equally and that is why you can see accuracy changes as the cases get older . More noticeable in some cartridges than others and more noticeable in the very accurate gun and load . Doing a consistent anneal job is a good idea for sure but even a reasonable anneal job on the right place on the case will result in less case to case variation . Again it depends a lot on which die system you use and what case design you have as to how much work hardening will happen . The long neck of a 222 Rem using expander ball type dies definitely benefited from occasional annealing but the 223 Rem not so much . Load using a Lee Collet neck sizer and a Redding Body die for a 223 and annealing is generally not required especially if you start with well annealed brass like Lapua . There is NO short one line statement that covers the subject of annealing there is many variables and personal requirements that alter the equation .

[Wyliecoyote]

John you may recall the writing of Harold Vaughn where he tested the neck tension effect on group size where he had concluded that it had such a small effect on group dispertion that only the most accurate benchrest rifles using matched cases with uniformly turned necks benefited. The experiments he ran using cases of both spectrums of light and heavy neck tension showed less than a thickness of a sheet of paper change in vertical dispersion. In terms of thousands of pounds of pressure inside the case upon firing, the difference in dislodging the bullet from the neck in terms of pressure and at what point in that pressure curve was negligible. He did conclude that it was a small sample test but noone has proved him wrong as far as i know. Now how his experiments tie in with annealing is that I have heard a lot of hearsay but never seen any anecdotal evidence that shows a non turned neck or even fully turned neck cartridge suddenly becomes more accurate through annealing. I have not seen any accuracy gain through the annealing of my benchrest cartridges from 6PPC, 6BR, 30BR and a host of long range benchrest wildcats using an AMP or any other form of annealing. All i saw was easier sizing, loading and extended case life. As you are well aware the biggest gain for long term accuracy is recent times has been the change to shoulder bumping with small base body dies and neck collets or even some form of full length sizing which is common place amongst Fclass shooters. The only benefits of annealing are as stated, easier sizing and longer case life but not at extreme pressure that may expand primer pockets. Anything claimed beyond that is hearsay where i await anecdotal proof to say otherwise.

[Oldbloke]

I would have thought that the video provided good evidence that annealing improves accuracy.

[JohnV]

John you may recall the writing of Harold Vaughn where he tested the neck tension effect on group size where he had concluded that it had such a small effect on group dispertion that only the most accurate benchrest rifles using matched cases with uniformly turned necks benefited. The experiments he ran using cases of both spectrums of light and heavy neck tension showed less than a thickness of a sheet of paper change in vertical dispersion. In terms of thousands of pounds of pressure inside the case upon firing, the difference in dislodging the bullet from the neck in terms of pressure and at what point in that pressure curve was negligible. He did conclude that it was a small sample test but noone has proved him wrong as far as i know. Now how his experiments tie in with annealing is that I have heard a lot of hearsay but never seen any anecdotal evidence that shows a non turned neck or even fully turned neck cartridge suddenly becomes more accurate through annealing. I have not seen any accuracy gain through the annealing of my benchrest cartridges from 6PPC, 6BR, 30BR and a host of long range benchrest wildcats using an AMP or any other form of annealing. All i saw was easier sizing, loading and extended case life. As you are well aware the biggest gain for long term accuracy is recent times has been the change to shoulder bumping with small base body dies and neck collets or even some form of full length sizing which is common place amongst Fclass shooters. The only benefits of annealing are as stated, easier sizing and longer case life but not at extreme pressure that may expand primer pockets. Anything claimed beyond that is hearsay where i await anecdotal proof to say otherwise.

BR rifle shooters use tight neck chambers and minimum neck sizing techniques , minimum neck tension and never use ball expander FLS dies and start with well annealed brass . Also 6 PPC etc is a small case and like 223 does not show much change as I indicated , A 6mm PPC is a different kettle of fish. . Harold Vaughn made a lot of wide sweeping statements that are not true for every cartridge and ever rifle and ever use . I already indicated that I don't do much annealing with 223 but I do see some accuracy improvement in the larger cases .
Even if you can't see any accuracy improvement it's still helps case neck life if your getting more than 10 reloads generally speaking , as I indicated . You never actually read all my posts you just triggered on a small part . I never claim anything that I have not seen and done myself . I was using my own home made body dies back in 1967 before people even heard of them . I have also been neck turning for tight neck and factory chambers for most of that time also .

[gunderson]

Brass work hardens like most metals, it depends on the amount of "work" or heat and pressure that the brass is subjected to, lower velocity, non magnum and smaller projectile rounds are going to be (in general) far more easy to maintain without annealing, meanwhile magnum rounds, big heavy pills out of even straight case ammo, is going to cause more pressure, more heat and thus more work.

I personally anneal all my bigger stuff basically every 3rd reload as it gets noticeably hard to push through the dies otherwise even with proper lubrication. all brass will eventually fail if its not annealed, but doing it too much isn't advisable either, when the brass is extruded and pressed it is basically "forged" to a specification and the tooling would be as exact as possible to keep this consistent, stepping outside that allowable tolerance will create a variable, even if it is just a thinning of the metal or stretching of the case overall too soon.

some of my brass however *(norma/lapua) seems to last a lot longer, so clearly the metallurgy is diverse.

my 2c

cheers.

[JohnV]

That is true , brass can also harden with age and from a process called , " stress corrosion " When the case neck is under stretching tension from a seated projectile the brass will also start to harden . The work hardening is from the static load . This can also increase Stress corrosion effects that attack the zinc in the brass and promote splitting and neck welding because the neck starts to shrink in diameter and the neck tension gets much higher than when originally loaded and the jacket and case neck can start to fuse together in extreme cases but I have seen it . The picture is an example of a projectile jacket starting to fuse in a reload case neck after 10 years storage . Exposing brass to amines like caustic soda or ammonia is bad and promotes age hardening and stress corrosion . Mild organic acids do no harm to brass as far as changing it's structure .
Ultrasonic cleaners should have something like orange juice in them not any kind of amine or alkaline liquid .
When cleaning a gun with ammonia based solvents one should make sure the chamber and lug recess is fully cleaned and patched out so no excess solvent gets onto the brass . Lug recess area can be swabbed and dried with round dental pads .
get a round dowel and drill a hole sideways at the very end and squeeze the dental pad in , cut it's length to fit and it can be twisted around inside the lug recess . Also prevents excess solvent and oil from pooling and then traveling down into the stock and damaging wood or bedding via the barrel threads and front action screw over time . Damaging consistent accuracy .
I absolutely proved over a 10 year test period that pure Moly coating on projectiles significantly decreased neck welding compared to uncoated projectiles . There is two situations that people refer to as " neck welding " . 1/ a large increase in neck tension . 2/ When the jacket metal fuses chemically with the inside case neck metal . The later is real neck welding .

[Oldbloke]

That is true , brass can also harden with age and from a process called , " stress corrosion " When the case neck is under stretching tension from a seated projectile the brass will also start to harden . The work hardening is from the static load . This can also increase Stress corrosion effects that attack the zinc in the brass and promote splitting and neck welding because the neck starts to shrink in diameter and the neck tension gets much higher than when originally loaded and the jacket and case neck can start to fuse together in extreme cases but I have seen it . The picture is an example of a projectile jacket starting to fuse in a reload case neck after 10 years storage . Exposing brass to amines like caustic soda or ammonia is bad and promotes age hardening and stress corrosion . Mild organic acids do no harm to brass as far as changing it's structure .
Ultrasonic cleaners should have something like orange juice in them not any kind of amine or alkaline liquid .
When cleaning a gun with ammonia based solvents one should make sure the chamber and lug recess is fully cleaned and patched out so no excess solvent gets onto the brass . Lug recess area can be swabbed and dried with round dental pads .
get a round dowel and drill a hole sideways at the very end and squeeze the dental pad in , cut it's length to fit and it can be twisted around inside the lug recess . Also prevents excess solvent and oil from pooling and then traveling down into the stock and damaging wood or bedding via the barrel threads and front action screw over time . Damaging consistent accuracy .
I absolutely proved over a 10 year test period that pure Moly coating on projectiles significantly decreased neck welding compared to uncoated projectiles . There is two situations that people refer to as " neck welding " . 1/ a large increase in neck tension . 2/ When the jacket metal fuses chemically with the inside case neck metal . The later is real neck welding .

JV ,

When I read that my bells rang immediately.

Age hardening is a very long bow. I'm still using 30.06 cases given to me over 30 years ago. They are fine.

A quick google came up with this:
https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/6 ... -of-brass/

Corrosion is a different matter and will result in cases "appearing" to be hard. The break because material has been removed.
It can be caused by both chemical attack or electrolysis.

I think annealing every 3 or 4 loads is very sensible compromise.

[JohnV]

I agree annealing is a useful tool . You don't understand Stress Corrosion . Age hardening can be slow and it can also be accelerated by certain conditions and factors .
I have seen old 30-06 and 303 ammo that most of the necks had cracks in them . So it's a variable thing .
There is very good reasons why most modern Military's dispose of small arms ammo after 7 to 8 years in storage . Some of the ammo will be fine and some will have cracks and some will look ok but crack after firing , potential accuracy can also be affected due to mainly increased neck tension all the way to potential neck welding etc.
I have seen 303 ammo tear the whole case neck off and it went up the barrel still attached to the projectile due to severe neck welding mainly associated with nickel plated projectiles but can happen with unplated also . Long term storage of ammo in nickel plated brass case is also a neck welding risk . Solution is Moly coated bullet .

[Oldbloke]

Your confusing "age hardening" with corrosion mate.

Not the same.

[JohnV]

Your confusing normal corrosion with stress corrosion . Look at the full stops . Two separate statements .

[Oldbloke]

"Stress corrosion" is a form of chemical corrosion mate. If it isn't exposed to ammonia for example it will not "age harden" which is what you said.
It was also work hardened. The combination causes the cracks, not because it's old.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass

"Brass is susceptible to stress corrosion cracking,[35] especially from ammonia or substances containing or releasing ammonia. The problem is sometimes known as season cracking after it was first discovered in brass cartridges used for rifle ammunition during the 1920s in the British Indian Army. The problem was caused by high residual stresses from cold forming of the cases during manufacture, together with chemical attack from traces of ammonia in the atmosphere. The cartridges were stored in stables and the ammonia concentration rose during the hot summer months, thus initiating brittle cracks. The problem was resolved by annealing the cases, and storing the cartridges elsewhere."

[JohnV]

Point out where I said that , " If it isn't exposed to ammonia for example it will not "age harden" which is what you said." I don't see that I said anything like that .
Annealing does not fix the damage done by prolonged stress corrosion it only halts it . If the brass has cracked even microscopically that will not reverse due to the depletion of zinc in that area . Getting real sick of people who don't know the subject but want to argue with everything . .

[Oldbloke]

Sounds to me your saying it gets older with age
No mention of it being work hardened or corrosion due to chemical attack.

Screenshot_20240130-181539_Samsung Internet.jpg (178.89 KiB) Viewed 4846 times

Has nothing to do with age.

It's poor annealing combined with corrosion. Simples.

[phill55phill]

Never done it in 2506 220 swift or 6.5x55 in 50 years

[Billo]

Never done it in 2506 220 swift or 6.5x55 in 50 years

Nothing ventured nothing gained, annealing just allows more consistency

[JohnV]

Sounds to me your saying it gets older with age
No mention of it being work hardened or corrosion due to chemical attack.

Screenshot_20240130-181539_Samsung Internet.jpg

Has nothing to do with age.

It's poor annealing combined with corrosion. Simples.

FFS sake read properly " AND from a process called stress corrosion " . TWO separate statements about two different things .

[Wyliecoyote]

Anyway guys, the main benefit of annealing is case life, specifically the necks. The other benefit is easier sizing and bullet seating.
I shot a benchrest match today, just a club match getting ready for the upcoming season. The 30BR i shot today has a 3 groove Krieger 17 twist in it that is relatively old in age but low in shot count. The load is known but the cases were annealed using the AMP where in the past these cases or others were never annealed and usually tossed after 10 firings. It shot like a dog, all vertical with the two groups we shot at 100m going 6 and 7mm, both vertical slots. I struggled to hit a dot at the Hunterclass stage in light winds and overcast skies. Then at 200m two groups at 20 and 13mm, again vertical slots. There were no dots hit at 200m in the Hunterclass stage.
Sooo, after the match i dug out some cases that weren't annealed, loaded them and shot a group of 3mm and the other looks like a single bullet hole that is in the high zeros. The point here is i changed one thing in the process, namely annealing, because I'm lazy and wanted to extend case life where 30BR cases take a lot of work to form and 6BR cases are expensive and hard to get these days. While i anneal alot, the 30 BR was never subjected to this process as we only get one or two matches a year if lucky. Somewhere in that process something has changed and is giving me vertical which is usually associated with not enough powder. Now I'm not saying annealing has a bad effect on this rifle, I'm saying it needs adjustment as the neck tension is not quite enough allowing it to realease the bullet just slightly earlier and off it goes from there to not competitive. Hunterclass which those that shoot it know is not about the score, it's the dot count that seperates the top end. 250s are expected at both ends these days.
Photo below shows the last group fired, 5 shots with my own 116 grain 8 ogive bullets on one inch J4 jackets, 34 grains of 2207 and 205s in unannealed Lapua cases.

[gunderson]

yeah some of my long action stuff wont run through the dies after a few reloads if I dont anneal them.

[wanneroo]

For 99.5% of us I would say no, especially for pistol shooters.

Most brass is common and fairly inexpensive so the extra cost and effort of annealing probably isn't worth it, get your 10 or 20 loads out of it and replace it with new stuff.

If you're loading moderate loads then the necks will probably start hardening and splitting after ten or twenty loads, and annealing will extend the life of the brass. But for common brass it may just be quicker and simpler to replace it after a while anyway.

If you are loading for a rear-locking action (like a Lee Enfield .303) then it's quite likely the case body will fail before the necks start splitting, so again, annealing really won't extend the life of your brass.

If you run your brass hot then there is also little point as you'll probably lose the primer pockets long before the necks start splitting or hardening.

If you are loading some wildcat that takes time and effort to form the brass, or you're shooting some sort of Weatherby chambering that costs $6 per case to replace, then it may well be worth annealing.

Now, if you're loading for maximum precision then there can be an advantage in annealing every time to give maximum consistency in grip of the bullet.

Well said. I shoot mostly common cartridges. I have looked at annealing or getting an annealing machine and the juice to me isn't worth the squeeze. Because I mostly shoot semi auto guns the case gets stretched and I have to small base resize the cases, inevitably case separation is an endgame for the brass. And even with a gravel range and range building, it's inevitable I lose brass in the mud or weeds or whatever as it goes flying in the sky.

As a result I have a stash of factory ammo and in recent times have been buying brass on sale in bulk when available for good prices, Starline Brass being the most common.