Mixing 223 Cases Qn

[Oldbloke]

For the experienced target shooters/re-loaders here.

I weighed a few cases today, various brands that I have in hand. I don’t normally mix cases. In the past always just sorted Win & S&B. Loads have been fine.

But recently got hold of a few ADI & LC cases. I couldn't weigh the S&B cases as they are all loaded.

The load I recently worked up are Winchester cases. (see pic) This will be my new all round 223 load.

The average weights of the cases were as follows.

ADI 94.0
WIN 93.4
LC 92.1
PMC 92.1

My questions are:

1. Will mixing these cases likely to have a major effect on group sizes?
2. Will mixing these cases likely change POI very much?
3. Would mixing just ADI & Winchester likely effect the above?


Before you tell me I will need to load them & try to find out, I already know that. Just trying to get an idea if the changes will be great or very minor. Or just not bother. In this day and age I don't want to waste components.

To give a bit of context, I only really hunt and 160 yards at a fox is a very long shot for me.

P>S> I'm guessing that mixing the PMC (only have a few) and LC wont be an issue.

IMG_20240518_154814.jpg (52.12 KiB) Viewed 7312 times

[deye243]

I have found that at short range 200 and under as far as culling roos it isn't realy a problem as long as the rifle isn't a fussy eater .
Now add a but of range and its a different ball game

[bladeracer]

I'm guessing the Lake City is 5.56mm brass?
I wouldn't mix commercial and NATO in the same batch if you want precision.

The only way to know how consistent they are is to load them, fire-form them to the same chamber, trim them to all to identical length, and then measure their capacity.

For anything I'm likely to use past about 150m I try to batch them all the same brand, then prep them to be as similar as possible. The rest get mixed for reduced loads that are used at close range anyway. If you only have two types, ADI and Win, I would load ten or twenty of each and shoot some non-consecutive groups with each at 100m and 200m and see if they shoot differently. But again, if they aren't already fire-formed to the chamber they might not shoot the same the second time you load them.

For the experienced target shooters/re-loaders here.

I weighed a few cases today, various brands that I have in hand. I don’t normally mix cases. In the past always just sorted Win & S&B. Loads have been fine.

But recently got hold of a few ADI & LC cases. I couldn't weigh the S&B cases as they are all loaded.

The load I recently worked up are Winchester cases. (see pic) This will be my new all round 223 load.

The average weights of the cases were as follows.

ADI 94.0
WIN 93.4
LC 92.1
PMC 92.1

My questions are:

1. Will mixing these cases likely to have a major effect on group sizes?
2. Will mixing these cases likely change POI very much?
3. Would mixing just ADI & Winchester likely effect the above?


Before you tell me I will need to load them & try to find out, I already know that. Just trying to get an idea if the changes will be great or very minor. Or just not bother. In this day and age I don't want to waste components.

To give a bit of context, I only really hunt and 160 yards at a fox is a very long shot for me.

P>S> I'm guessing that mixing the PMC (only have a few) and LC wont be an issue.

IMG_20240518_154814.jpg

[Wm.Traynor]

https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threa ... y.3972946/

Take a look at the reply by Bindi2 23-2-19 #10
Sounded relevant

[Oldbloke]

deye243, looks like you summed it up well. Thx
WmT, thanks for the link. Interesting reading.

Seems weight variation doesn't correlate exactly with volume but fairly close. This was my initial guess anyway.

Seems up to about 3.O gr variation in brass weight does SFA. (223)

For interest, I roughly cut the neck off a 223 case. (Only had tin snips to it was rough. Lol.) About half of it weighed 2.5gr. So it's buggerall difference in volume.


I think reply #31 answered the qn best.

IMG_20240518_213908.jpg (180.34 KiB) Viewed 7255 times

[deye243]

deye243, looks like you summed it up well. Thx
WmT, thanks for the link. Interesting reading.

Seems weight variation doesn't correlate exactly with volume but fairly close. This was my initial guess anyway.

Seems up to about 3.O gr variation in brass weight does SFA. (223)

For interest, I roughly cut the neck off a 223 case. (Only had tin snips to it was rough. Lol.) About half of it weighed 2.5gr. So it's buggerall difference in volume.


I think reply #31 answered the qn best.

IMG_20240518_213908.jpg

Now that site has some amazing info in it I have been on there since I found the internet .
Although now a lot of numptys have joined it I preferred the site years ago when the main posters were world class shooters

[on_one_wheel]

Smash a few over the chronograph, I'd be surprised if you had more than 25 fps difference between the lighter cases and heavier ones with the same given charge weight.

[Oldbloke]

[quote="on_one_wheel"]Smash a few over the chronograph, I'd be surprised if you had more than 25 fps difference between the lighter cases and heavier ones with the same given charge weight.[/quote]

Don't have one.
I've got it now.
Not a big deal for general hunting.
Matters for long range tho.

[SCJ429]

I am with Blade regarding the Lake City brass, chuck it away or be very careful working up a load with it.

In regards to mixing brass, why add another variable to your loading. 223 brass is so plentiful you can stick to your favourite brand for free. I just use ADI stuff for hunting, I find it pretty good for the price…. Free.

[Oldbloke]

I am with Blade regarding the Lake City brass, chuck it away or be very careful working up a load with it.

In regards to mixing brass, why add another variable to your loading. 223 brass is so plentiful you can stick to your favourite brand for free. I just use ADI stuff for hunting, I find it pretty good for the price…. Free.

Re-reading my original post I'd say it's a bit misleading. I don't intend to mix the brass. More an academic question. Thinking I might need to sometime.

What's wrong with LC brass? It's the lightest, so likely slightly higher case volume.

[in2anity]

IMO the biggest issue with mixing brass is possible pressure differential. What might be a healthy pressure load in one, suddenly may be showing pressure signs in another. An example; I once had a single piece of SAKO brass mixed in with my ageing, current batch of PPU brass. The primer flattened and cratered badly on just that one piece of SAKO, which is visibly thicker. You may not think this is a big issue, but it was shot through my rather prized No4-223-conversion competition rifle, which is marked as needing to be kept below 50kpsi. Because it's a rear locker; with overpressure you can stretch them and ruin them. Not good.

At the end of the day, target shooting is all about consistency. Consistency with your technique, consistency with your equipment, consistency with your consumables. And mixing headstamps is counter to this general mantra. Hence why blokes go full tard with persuing reload consistency, particularly for fully supported positions, where the user side of the equation is essentially removed (putting even more emphasis on equipment/reloads).

Getting back to your usecase OB; would it make much of a vertical difference for a 55gr load at say 200-300m? I think not. The 55gr is infamous for being wind susceptable (at such distances). Under wind, the group will blow out far more from windage fluctuation than it would from slightly varying case volumes. Could you still brain a critter at 200m? I certainly think so. In contrast, shooting a 1000yd stage with the 80.5gr Bergers, from a 30" 1:7 target rifle - yeah... you certainly won't be messing around with different cases during the same stage, unless ofc you are ok dropping some integers... horses for courses.

PS: from where I come from, Lake City is considered good stuff.

[SCJ429]

My understanding is that the LC brass is sized to shoot in 5.56 AR15 chambers. It would stand to reason if you get range scrap brass that it could have been shot in a 5.56 or Wylde chamber. Why bother with it if it is questionable, as it is cheap badly annealed brass.

[mchughcb]

I have mixed 3006. Win, Lapua, Norma , Geco, PMC. No problems. I have mixed lapua adi, hornady in 243 and 223.

However ADI 308 brass is a completely different pressure beast compared to hornady.

Should be OK with 223.

[bladeracer]

What's wrong with LC brass? It's the lightest, so likely slightly higher case volume.

Nothing wrong with it, I just wouldn't mix NATO and commercial bass for precision loads.

[in2anity]

Anneal, small base die if you must, neck it, off yu go. Once fireformed it’s as good as any. Popular among old timer service riflers.

[Oldbloke]

What's wrong with LC brass? It's the lightest, so likely slightly higher case volume.

Nothing wrong with it, I just wouldn't mix NATO and commercial bass for precision loads.

Stamped 223 not 5.56

[bladeracer]

What's wrong with LC brass? It's the lightest, so likely slightly higher case volume.

Nothing wrong with it, I just wouldn't mix NATO and commercial bass for precision loads.

Stamped 223 not 5.56

If it's commercial then go for it.

[straightshooter]

For the experienced target shooters/re-loaders here.

I weighed a few cases today, various brands that I have in hand. I don’t normally mix cases. In the past always just sorted Win & S&B. Loads have been fine.

But recently got hold of a few ADI & LC cases. I couldn't weigh the S&B cases as they are all loaded.

The load I recently worked up are Winchester cases. (see pic) This will be my new all round 223 load.

The average weights of the cases were as follows.

ADI 94.0
WIN 93.4
LC 92.1
PMC 92.1

My questions are:

1. Will mixing these cases likely to have a major effect on group sizes?
2. Will mixing these cases likely change POI very much?
3. Would mixing just ADI & Winchester likely effect the above?


Before you tell me I will need to load them & try to find out, I already know that. Just trying to get an idea if the changes will be great or very minor. Or just not bother. In this day and age I don't want to waste components.

To give a bit of context, I only really hunt and 160 yards at a fox is a very long shot for me.

P>S> I'm guessing that mixing the PMC (only have a few) and LC wont be an issue.

IMG_20240518_154814.jpg

A lot depends on whether you are trying for head shots or simply body shots for destruction.
(Oh for the days when fox skins would sometimes fetch up to $80 and that was 1970's dollars)
The case weight as a proxy for brass volume is a relatively minor factor in pressure variation.
In my experience the size and shape of the flash hole has vastly more influence. As it is made in one operation when the primer pocket is formed it is unlikely to vary in one brand of brass unless multiple machines were in use or dies were changed.
The only way to know for sure is test firing.
If you have good quantities of the various brands of brass then the obvious solution is to not mix headstamps.
If you don't have many cases then the only way is a composite test group of say 4 of each headstamp and adjust your scope to the group center.
The distance you quote isn't very demanding so you can reduce short range error by zeroing your rifle for that composite ammo at say an actual 150 or 175 200 yards instead of relying on some sort of trajectory calculator.

[Oldbloke]

I thought I would run this through Gordon's Reloading Tool.
Same load 24.7gr AR2208 with 55gr Super roo bullet.
Only change made was case volume. 31gr was the default/ave.
At 26gr I got a pressure warning.

FILE DELETED



Thoughts?

[bladeracer]

I thought I would run this through Gordon's Reloading Tool.
Same load 24.7gr AR2208 with 55gr Super roo bullet.
Only change made was case volume. 31gr was the default/ave.
At 26gr I got a pressure warning.

IMG_20240521_120534.jpg

Thoughts?

Great example of how seating depth affects pressure, seating depth alters the case volume.

5gn H2O difference is huge though, is it realistically possible? Wiki lists .223Rem H2O volume as 28.8gn, and .222Rem as 26.9gn (KWK says 31gn and 27gn) so 26gn is a very significant step down in capacity - you are pretty much packing an overcharge .223 load into a .222 case. It would certainly be possible if the bullet set back into the case during feeding, and that would definitely cause a pressure spike.

[Oldbloke]

GRT said average capacity was 31gr.

Your right, 5gr is stupid amount, 1 or 2 would be far more representative. I'll have another look, perhaps tonight.

[Oldbloke]

OK. I've revisited the GRT and come up with more realistic volumes.
NOTE: Ideleted the previous image as I discovered some errors due to wrong powder entered.

Here is the new data. 31gr is the default or average given by GRT.
Thoughts?

IMG_20240521_202626.jpg (130.43 KiB) Viewed 6997 times

[bladeracer]

OK. I've revisited the GRT and come up with more realistic volumes.
NOTE: Ideleted the previous image as I discovered some errors due to wrong powder entered.

Here is the new data. 31gr is the default or average given by GRT.
Thoughts?

IMG_20240521_202626.jpg

An additional 230fps for that last 1gn of H2O seems in the ballpark to me. I _think_ seating a .224" bullet another .160" (4mm) deeper into the case will decrease volume by 1cc (somebody might want to check that as I did it quick). I haven't tried adjusting seating depth by as much as that, as far as I can recall. But that's similar to seating an 80gn bullet at 2.450", then seating it at 2.290", on the same powder charge. I would definitely expect it to spike the pressure. I guess I could load some on a lighter charge at 2.290", and some on the same charge at 2.450" and see if I loose 230fps between the two loads.

If you compare the H2O volume with some powders, like AR2206H, the powder must have similar bulk density to water. My PPU brass holds 27gn of AR2206H filled to the case mouth, Tikka holds 26.35gn - but I didn't note if they were fire-formed to my chamber when I measured them. If you compare Berger's 80gn load data (they load to 2.260") to other people's load data (more likely in the 2.450-2.500" realm) perhaps there's a grain difference between them.

[Oldbloke]

OK. I've revisited the GRT and come up with more realistic volumes.
NOTE: Ideleted the previous image as I discovered some errors due to wrong powder entered.

Here is the new data. 31gr is the default or average given by GRT.
Thoughts?

IMG_20240521_202626.jpg

An additional 230fps for that last 1gn of H2O seems in the ballpark to me. I _think_ seating a .224" bullet another .160" (4mm) deeper into the case will decrease volume by 1cc (somebody might want to check that as I did it quick). I haven't tried adjusting seating depth by as much as that, as far as I can recall. But that's similar to seating an 80gn bullet at 2.450", then seating it at 2.290", on the same powder charge. I would definitely expect it to spike the pressure. I guess I could load some on a lighter charge at 2.290", and some on the same charge at 2.450" and see if I loose 230fps between the two loads.

If you compare the H2O volume with some powders, like AR2206H, the powder must have similar bulk density to water. My PPU brass holds 27gn of AR2206H filled to the case mouth, Tikka holds 26.35gn - but I didn't note if they were fire-formed to my chamber when I measured them. If you compare Berger's 80gn load data (they load to 2.260") to other people's load data (more likely in the 2.450-2.500" realm) perhaps there's a grain difference between them.

Nah, more like 1/4cc. 1cc is about the size of a dice.

I noticed that too. If max load is say 27gr and water capacity is 31. Must be much the same.

[bladeracer]

OK. I've revisited the GRT and come up with more realistic volumes.
NOTE: Ideleted the previous image as I discovered some errors due to wrong powder entered.

Here is the new data. 31gr is the default or average given by GRT.
Thoughts?

IMG_20240521_202626.jpg

An additional 230fps for that last 1gn of H2O seems in the ballpark to me. I _think_ seating a .224" bullet another .160" (4mm) deeper into the case will decrease volume by 1cc (somebody might want to check that as I did it quick). I haven't tried adjusting seating depth by as much as that, as far as I can recall. But that's similar to seating an 80gn bullet at 2.450", then seating it at 2.290", on the same powder charge. I would definitely expect it to spike the pressure. I guess I could load some on a lighter charge at 2.290", and some on the same charge at 2.450" and see if I loose 230fps between the two loads.

If you compare the H2O volume with some powders, like AR2206H, the powder must have similar bulk density to water. My PPU brass holds 27gn of AR2206H filled to the case mouth, Tikka holds 26.35gn - but I didn't note if they were fire-formed to my chamber when I measured them. If you compare Berger's 80gn load data (they load to 2.260") to other people's load data (more likely in the 2.450-2.500" realm) perhaps there's a grain difference between them.

Nah, more like 1/4cc. 1cc is about the size of a dice.

I noticed that too. If max load is say 27gr and water capacity is 31. Must be much the same.

Yes, that sounds more like it