A bunch of questions from a newbie

[MG5150]

Hello Everyone

I'm still relatively new to the world of firearms and would like some help navigating rifle quality and price points.

How do you determine the quality of a rifle, value for money, and what factors affect accuracy?

Is there a publication/website that gives every production model rifle a score out of 100?



Coming from a guitar world I know that:

$100-$400 Guitars tends to be beginner level crap that sounds bad and feels terrible (waste of money)
$400-$600 Guitars tend to be okay sound quality and still feel pretty rough (good starting point for a beginner but save up and go to next tier if you can)
$600-$1200 you're getting into serious hobby territory and there is a considerable increase in quality
$1200-$2000 you've got professional quality instruments that will last you a lifetime
$2000-$4000 the quality is the same as the $1200 tier but you're paying for special wood or a popular brand
$4000-$6000 you're either paying for a boutique brand, handmade instrument or top tier/custom items without a big difference in sound or feel
$6000+ special editions & custom shops etc

Is there a similar pricing point guideline for firearms?

I usually agree with the statement "you get what you pay for" but know that there isn't much difference in sound and playability between a $1200-$2000 guitar and a $4000 one, and have owned a few mid guitars that have outperformed some of my more expensive ones.

I also assume that the technology they use to make guns nowadays puts out better quality guns than anything made 30 to 50 to 100 years ago.

All this being said, I am looking to purchase my first 22LR

I'm weighing up between a :

Ruger Muddy Girl ($500)
Winchester Xpert ($850)
Browning T Bolt ($1300) or Tikka equivalent in same price point.
Lithgow 101 Crossover ($1500)
Lithgow 101 Outback ($2300)

All feedback is appreciated.

[Oldbloke]

Hi MG5150,

"How do you determine the quality of a rifle, value for money, and what factors affect accuracy?"

"Is there a publication/website that gives every production model rifle a score out of 100"

Not that I'm aware of.

To make it worse every "review " I've ever read in a magazine has been very positive. Never see a negative one.

My suggestion is go to the local range and ask around. Perhaps look at a few targets. Importantly ask about ammo preferences.

Same here, ask for suggestions nut people need to know what the intended purpose is for the 22lr

Hunting or target only?
Aprox budget would help.

Good luck, it can be a mine field.

P.S. I believe the ruger American is very popular ATM

[MG5150]

To make it worse every "review " I've ever read in a magazine has been very positive. Never see a negative one.

yes, and 95% of youtube reviews are either sponsored or they've been gifted the guns so they want to give it a positive spin so that they send them another one to be reviewed in future.

I'll be using the gun for hunting with the intention of getting into pest control. If the cheaper end of the spectrum is accurate then I can get one sooner rather than later, but if it's worth saving up for one of the $1200-$2000 rifles I can do that too.

[No1Mk3]

Cost is subjective, newer rifles are generally less prone to problems only due to lack of wear and a 100 year old Mauser or BSW will often still shoot as well as most modern sporting offerings. The rifles you list are all good choices for hunting, with the Lithgows capable of good performance on the range, but so is a 1958 Brno Model 2 or an Anschutz 1418 which can be found from $1000. As Oldbloke suggested, go to a range and talk to people about what they use, many are happy to let you have a shot, get the feel of the rifle and go from there, Cheers.
That should be 1416, got old Mercedes trucks on the brain lately!!

[in2anity]

In modern era, the single biggest contributor to raw accuracy is the quality and uniformity of the barrel. Thickness of the barrel also plays a part, but a little less so in rimfire (compared with centerfire). Each individual barrel is different; you see lemons and diamonds and that's just the luck of the draw (when buying new).

Coming in second is probably the trigger quality; a higher quality trigger is going to generally be more uniform with a lighter/crisper letoff, compared with a cheap factory trigger.

We shouldn't forget the sighting system as well; the two aforementioned points are moot if one cannot effectively and repeatedly realise the accuracy potential of a given package. That's probably a seperate issue, although sight choice does effect cheek weld/comb-height properties. Ideally you should consider which scope while considering rifle; how tall will it sit? Can the comb be raised high enough to suit a huge objective scope such as 50mm+ scope? Will the length of pull (LOP) (length of buttstock) work with a cheap, finicky eye box and your stature?

Another important point is simply the weight of the rifle. A heavier rifle is more suited to benchrest/prone-supported shooting. If you will be punching paper and not carrying the thing around, a heavier rifle will yield better groups, largely because of the inherent inertia the thing has. Stock stiffness is a factor. In contrast, you want a light rifle to trek around with; shots will be made ad-hoc, probably with an elevated heartrate; stunning mechanical accuracy is not as important; carryability way more important.

Compared with centerfire the rimfire market is a bit of a niche market; generally less to choose from. But the cost-to-quality ratio is comparable to your guitar analogy, so lets run with that.

Let's talk about your specific choices, and I'll offer my opinions on each of them:

- Ruger Muddy Girl ($500) : the cheap Rugers are among the cheapest options available. Like a $400 guitar, it'll get the job done, but it'll feel rougher and cheaper, and frankly a bit gross once you've used premium stuff. Fit and finish will be lacking andvery light. Rudimentary trigger. Ruger barrels are generally O-K for the price point; at least it's hammer-forged. Go higher tier if you can afford it.
- Winchester Xpert ($850): another light rifle, comes with iron sights. More geared toward a trainer rifle. Length of pull (LOP) (length of buttstock) looks pretty short. More suited to short stature. Button rifled barrel; but by all reports fairly typical 1moa@50yds accuracy with decent quality ammo. Little better than cheap Ruger let's call it a $600 guitar. Go higher tier if you can afford it.
- Browning T Bolt ($1300): now the Tbolt is encroaching on target-rifle territory. It's a heavier, stiffer stock and probably a little more accurate than the previous two, at the range. The TBolt is a straight pull which is an faster cycling system than a tradititional bolt lockup. Good for practical, timed, competition shooting where speed of cycle plays a factor. We have a saying in our club "fast reload, slow aim, squeeze trigger". Let's call it a $1200, niche guitar.
- Tikka t1x: another quality rifle synonymous with the tikka/sako brand. But polymer and very light - it's a hunting rifle. Barrel quality should be inhernently high. May not be the best range gun because of how light it is. Let's call it a $1200, mainstream guitar. Not bad, but how much range time will you be doing? Or is carrying gonna be your thing?
- Lithgow 101 Crossover ($1500): it's designed as a "crossover" weight. I.e. heavy enough to hold a good group, but still under 4kg. These are pretty nice; and can be very accurate with the right ammo. But they don't offer a lot of adjustment by today's standards. And are probably a bit too heavy for long carry. It might also be called a bit of an identity crisis; neither here nore there. And when you get serious about target shooting, you want to have a very clear identity - do that one, specific-thing exceptionally well. Still though, a quality oz made rifle that is perfect for beginners who respect quality. Let's call it a $1200, hobbyist guitar.
- Lithgow 101 Outback ($2300): Same as prior, but with adjustable comb!! A little above in terms of configurability. Might work well with a huge 56mm scope. Let's call it a $1200, entry-profession guitar. Worth $800 more for comb adjust? you be the judge.

Here's a coupla brands you haven't listed:

- SAVAGE MKII 22LR ($650): $400 guitar, it'll get the job done, but it'll feel rough and cheap.
- CZ 457 Synthetic 22LR Varmint 16" ($1000) : $1200, hobbyist guitar.
- ANSCHUTZ 1710 DHB ($4000) : you've got THE top tier professional quality guitar that will last you a lifetime, second to none in accuracy. Groups will be tiny.


Now MG, I put it to you; how do you imagine you will be mostly using your shiny new 22lr? Will you be frequenting ranges? Or is it mostly a hunting/carrrying rifle?

[bladeracer]

I don't know of any easy answer to this. Any such scoring system will always come down to the personal bias of the scorer.

Quality will come down to your personal preferences I think, accuracy is more subjective and again depends on what you need or want from your rifle. If you're only hunting deer then three-minutes at 100m may be all the accuracy you need, if you're wanting to ring gongs at a mile you might want better than one-minute at 1000m.

I have never agreed with the rubbish that you get what you pay for as it implies spending more money buys you better quality, often you are paying more to cover a massive advertising campaign because the product isn't good enough to sell itself. A lot of the time you're paying more because of things that are out of control of the manufacturer or importer, like transport costs, labour rates, import tariffs, taxes, and lots of middlemen taking their cuts.

Yes, modern CNC machining means even the Chinese can reverse engineer anything that exists and reproduce it to varying degrees of quality, sometimes better than the original.

I would suggest visiting some gun shops to physically look at and even handle some different rifles to see what appeals to you. Then visit rifle clubs when they're shooting, see what others are using, and ask people whether they have any issues with their rifles. Our laws do mean that you'll probably just have to roll the dice and buy something so you can try it for yourself, at the risk of perhaps being disappointed. Visiting shops and clubs you may even find a rifle for sale that you like.

What purposes do you envision for this rifle you want to buy - hunting, target competition, practicing your skills, or just having fun on the farm? Do you want iron sights or a scope? Do you prefer detachable magazines or a tubular magazine? Do you prefer bolt-action, lever-action, break-action, pump-action?

Of your list I can only really comment on the Ruger as I own three, and love them. A neighbour has the Lithgow. I found the Lithgow to be very heavy for a .22, and far too pretty to be carrying in the bush, for me. In .22LR, I also have Henry and Norinco lever-actions, and some older single-shot and repeating .22's. My go-to .22LR's for the past few years have been the Henry H001 and the Ruger Precision, I usually take one or both out whenever I go out to play. I would add the CZ's to your list to investigate as well.

Don't rule out buying secondhand, even older rifles can be excellent but may not easily allow fitting a scope, and may be harder to get parts for (like spare mags). The older rifles may not give you the one-minute at 100m that most of the modern .22LR bolt-actions should be capable of, but you may enjoy shooting them more if you're historically inclined. Something like a Brno Model 2 (CZ452),a Remington Model 513T, or one of the Lee Enfield training rifles for example, but there are plenty of others.

Hello Everyone

I'm still relatively new to the world of firearms and would like some help navigating rifle quality and price points.

How do you determine the quality of a rifle, value for money, and what factors affect accuracy?

Is there a publication/website that gives every production model rifle a score out of 100?



Coming from a guitar world I know that:

$100-$400 Guitars tends to be beginner level crap that sounds bad and feels terrible (waste of money)
$400-$600 Guitars tend to be okay sound quality and still feel pretty rough (good starting point for a beginner but save up and go to next tier if you can)
$600-$1200 you're getting into serious hobby territory and there is a considerable increase in quality
$1200-$2000 you've got professional quality instruments that will last you a lifetime
$2000-$4000 the quality is the same as the $1200 tier but you're paying for special wood or a popular brand
$4000-$6000 you're either paying for a boutique brand, handmade instrument or top tier/custom items without a big difference in sound or feel
$6000+ special editions & custom shops etc

Is there a similar pricing point guideline for firearms?

I usually agree with the statement "you get what you pay for" but know that there isn't much difference in sound and playability between a $1200-$2000 guitar and a $4000 one, and have owned a few mid guitars that have outperformed some of my more expensive ones.

I also assume that the technology they use to make guns nowadays puts out better quality guns than anything made 30 to 50 to 100 years ago.

All this being said, I am looking to purchase my first 22LR

I'm weighing up between a :

Ruger Muddy Girl ($500)
Winchester Xpert ($850)
Browning T Bolt ($1300) or Tikka equivalent in same price point.
Lithgow 101 Crossover ($1500)
Lithgow 101 Outback ($2300)

All feedback is appreciated.

[Coxy383]

To make it worse every "review " I've ever read in a magazine has been very positive. Never see a negative one.

yes, and 95% of youtube reviews are either sponsored or they've been gifted the guns so they want to give it a positive spin so that they send them another one to be reviewed in future.

I'll be using the gun for hunting with the intention of getting into pest control. If the cheaper end of the spectrum is accurate then I can get one sooner rather than later, but if it's worth saving up for one of the $1200-$2000 rifles I can do that too.

Not all YouTube is bulls**t. Take tikka reviews for a example. They all say they good because they are . Howa savage and a few other cheep ones are fine. 99.9% of guns will shoot better then we ever can . I jumped down this rabbit hole a year ago and now have 4 rifles in 4 different chamberings . You cannot get 1 do it all rifle. And I see looks like U Wana pest control....have you seen the price of ammo? So that's reloading game and lots of money and time to setup. Good luck with it mate

[MG5150]

Here's a coupla brands you haven't listed:

- SAVAGE MKII 22LR ($650): $400 guitar, it'll get the job done, but it'll feel rough and cheap.
- CZ 457 Synthetic 22LR Varmint 16" ($1000) : $1200, hobbyist guitar.
- ANSCHUTZ 1710 DHB ($4000) : you've got THE top tier professional quality guitar that will last you a lifetime, second to none in accuracy. Groups will be tiny.


Now MG, I put it to you; how do you imagine you will be mostly using your shiny new 22lr? Will you be frequenting ranges? Or is it mostly a hunting/carrrying rifle?

Thanks for such a detailed response - I've only got a minute now for a quick reply but will reply in full later.

I plan to use the 22LR mainly for hunting (rabbits/foxes) - I have a Browning X Bolt 30-06 for Sambar and am picking up a Lithgow 223 this Sunday as my permit finally cleared. Next in the collection is a 22LR

Is the CZ 457 the evolution of the BRNO Model? I have been very tempted to get a BRNO II 2nd hand but don't know how to judge quality/accuracy ahead of the purchase.

[Oldbloke]

"I have a Browning X Bolt 30-06 for Sambar"

30.06 is a very good choice for sambar.

However you don't sound like a very experienced hunter?? Sambar are a hard nut to crack.

You might be better to get some experience on other game such as pig or goats first.

What's the scope on the 30.06?
2-7 or 3-9×40 are good choices. Forget higher mag.

[MG5150]

"I have a Browning X Bolt 30-06 for Sambar"

30.06 is a very good choice for sambar.

However you don't sound like a very experienced hunter?? Sambar are a hard nut to crack.

You might be better to get some experience on other game such as pig or goats first.

What's the scope on the 30.06?
2-7 or 3-9×40 are good choices. Forget higher mag.

Grandpa took me on my first fallow deer hunt when I was 13 where I got a fallow deer during the rutt... then I had a big 17 year gap and only got into hunting again start of this year.

My grandparents have a block that backs on to state forest in the Vic High country so I can just visit them and walk around the bush there. I've only ever seen sambar and wild dogs in that area. I've got three sambar so far this year and a bunch of close calls. Still figuring it out.

Scope is a Leupold VX3HD 3.5-10 with a firedot.

If you can recommend where to go for goat and pigs in Victoria (I live in Melbourne) I'd love to go chasing those.

[deye243]

Here's a coupla brands you haven't listed:

- SAVAGE MKII 22LR ($650): $400 guitar, it'll get the job done, but it'll feel rough and cheap.
- CZ 457 Synthetic 22LR Varmint 16" ($1000) : $1200, hobbyist guitar.
- ANSCHUTZ 1710 DHB ($4000) : you've got THE top tier professional quality guitar that will last you a lifetime, second to none in accuracy. Groups will be tiny.


Now MG, I put it to you; how do you imagine you will be mostly using your shiny new 22lr? Will you be frequenting ranges? Or is it mostly a hunting/carrrying rifle?

Thanks for such a detailed response - I've only got a minute now for a quick reply but will reply in full later.

I plan to use the 22LR mainly for hunting (rabbits/foxes) - I have a Browning X Bolt 30-06 for Sambar and am picking up a Lithgow 223 this Sunday as my permit finally cleared. Next in the collection is a 22LR

Is the CZ 457 the evolution of the BRNO Model? I have been very tempted to get a BRNO II 2nd hand but don't know how to judge quality/accuracy ahead of the purchase.

I have had brno 1 and 2E a cz452 and lithgow la101 and now a cz 457 which is by far the best of the bunch the trigger alone is worth buying the rifle for .
It is the least fussy with ammo but dosent mean they all are , my son has my old mod 2 E .

[Oldbloke]

NSW is the place to be when it comes to goats and pigs.

"I've got three sambar so far this year and a bunch of close calls. Still figuring it out."
Sounds like you have already got it worked out.

[Coxy383]

"I have a Browning X Bolt 30-06 for Sambar"

30.06 is a very good choice for sambar.

However you don't sound like a very experienced hunter?? Sambar are a hard nut to crack.

You might be better to get some experience on other game such as pig or goats first.

What's the scope on the 30.06?
2-7 or 3-9×40 are good choices. Forget higher mag.

Fallow on the fringes of paddocks are a great place to start

[MG5150]

I have had brno 1 and 2E a cz452 and lithgow la101 and now a cz 457 which is by far the best of the bunch the trigger alone is worth buying the rifle for .
It is the least fussy with ammo but dosent mean they all are , my son has my old mod 2 E .

I've been looking at the CZ 457

Does a synthetic stock vs wood stock make any difference or is it just preference?

Similarly, if a rifle like the Lithgow has a hunting stock vs a tactical chassis but the barrel is the same will there be any difference?

[bladeracer]

I've been looking at the CZ 457

Does a synthetic stock vs wood stock make any difference or is it just preference?

Similarly, if a rifle like the Lithgow has a hunting stock vs a tactical chassis but the barrel is the same will there be any difference?

I prefer plastic or aluminium for a hunting rifle, it's impervious to moisture and it it gets damaged I'm not going to care.

The ergonomics of a pistol-grip chassis may make it easier for you to shoot well, but it shouldn't change the actual ability of the rifle. An aluminium chassis will probably make the rifle heavier as well. I put my hunting rifles into MDT chassis.

[deye243]

I have had brno 1 and 2E a cz452 and lithgow la101 and now a cz 457 which is by far the best of the bunch the trigger alone is worth buying the rifle for .
It is the least fussy with ammo but dosent mean they all are , my son has my old mod 2 E .

I've been looking at the CZ 457

Does a synthetic stock vs wood stock make any difference or is it just preference?

Similarly, if a rifle like the Lithgow has a hunting stock vs a tactical chassis but the barrel is the same will there be any difference?

The la101 is a fairly heavy rifle not the best choice for a walkabout shooter and a s**t trigger that's harder to work on than a 457 trigger that can be fixed with a Bic Biro spring and is a properly ajustable trigger with weight sear engagement and backlash mine sits at 11oz but can very easily be adjusted up to a good hunting trigger at 1 1/2 lb after being fixed .
A synthetic stock should be more stable but with synthetic stocks they put on rim fires these days they are very flexible I have not had any wandering zero issues with any of my rim fires but I did bed those actions as I do all my rifles with timber stocks.

[alexjones]

As far as bolt action rifles go the Ruger Americans are probably the best value for money I can think of. Those Howa rifles too are good.
They are cheap, reliable, well built, shoot good enough for hunting or hitting steal targets and come in all kinds of calibers.

[Die Judicii]

As for your original post (OP) I'd say you've got a good handle on it all ready,,,,,
(ie) if you apply those thoughts/values to firearms,, your already well on the way to success.
The final, and nitty gritty choice/s are yours alone, and could never be successfully advocated by others,, regardless of age or experience.

My age and past experiences tell me that much.

Good luck in your endeavours.

[mickb]

Id say firearms are actually more forgiving than guitars price points and the prices are far more variable and mean less over all. I'll speak to rifle as I am not a shotgun guy.

Eg a dirty old Weatherby vanguard st 875 bucks can outshoot guns into the thousands. Don't be fooled into thinking a gun with a 3k price tag means anything over the gun worth 1k. The more expensive gun may just have fancy wood and better finish aka polished exterior and fancy name.

Also great accuracy can be bought or improved on quite cheaply .

Regular mid range guns are chosen by professional hunters, high volume cullers all the time. It's not like guns often have a ' crappy chinese eBay thrift store level' you can be sucked into.
Id say it's a truism 'almost all guns are 'decent quality' in that very few wont perform or are outright lemons. It's not like a brand of cheap binoculars that is total crap every time


You can certainly get occasional lemons, anything mass produced can have failures on the production line and you may get the dud. But id say not a lot of total dud models or brands are out there.

Where price points can leave you exposed is second hand guns, as you may not know the value or buying someone else's dud in some way. Guns are in fact usually a good deal second hand, a gun will outlast human lifetimes after all, but it requires more expertise in the purchase and for a new person better off buying new.

Id honestly forget all the quality concerns, again I think it's unimportant and just get a gun that suits your budget, calibre preferences and intended use. Trust me it will be fine to whet your teeth on, and probably good enough you will still be using it in 50 years

[6mm Remington]

Get the BRNO model 2, there are enough around and they are a quality built rifle.
Have a good look down the dangerous end to rate the accuracy potential..
Yes the CZ is a later version of the original.

Whatever you choose, get a good trigger.

[Blr243]

Stratocaster with rosewood fretboard

[6mm Remington]

Stratocaster with rosewood fretboard

Beck TL-68 "crafted" in Japan.