Resizing Die; Setting up

[Wm.Traynor]

While researching how to set shoulders back, the subject of setting up the likes of a FLS die and a body die. I am wondering how hard should these dies be screwed down against the shell-holder, hard or barely touching?
A little confession,
I have been reloading since 1964

[Larry]

Every brand and model of die is a little bit different in their setup. All the ones I have used always the shell holder makes contact with the base of the die. However I do use different thickness shell holders in some cases.

[Over The Hill]

I set my Lee FLS dies so that they bottom out on the shell holder before the press reaches full stroke so there is no doubt that the case has gone full length in the die.

[deye243]

It has more to do with case hardness and how much press stretch you have

[Oldbloke]

It has more to do with case hardness and how much press stretch you have

Yes,
In my limited experience annealing plays a big part too.

[Oldbloke]

It has more to do with case hardness and how much press stretch you have

Yes,
In my limited experience annealing plays a big part too.

[bladeracer]

While researching how to set shoulders back, the subject of setting up the likes of a FLS die and a body die. I am wondering how hard should these dies be screwed down against the shell-holder, hard or barely touching?
A little confession,
I have been reloading since 1964

Depends on what you're doing. If you're sizing back to spec then they should touch, if you're just bumping the shoulder enough to chamber nicely then adjust the die incrementally until you get the bump you want.

[Wapiti]

And you really cannot understand the results you are getting between a fired case in that firearm (which shows you the dimensions of your actual chamber minus the springback, which you must basically ignore) and a new or resized case using the basically amateur method of sizing up against the shellholder.

That method is a "one size fits all" dimension, which absolutely oversizes the case to fit any chamber and make up for wildly varying manufacturing tolerances.
The results are always reduced potential case life and chamber alignment, which is potentially "free" improvements in accuracy.
If you aren't worried about that, or haven't seen the improved results of better methods, or are just happy with how you're going with that method, you won't ever miss these improvements.

To move forward on this you'll need a shoulder bump gauge for your calibre/cartridge, and an accurate vernier caliper at a minimum. After that, you'll be amazed at these benefits and reloading on a higher level.

There are great YouTube channels showing the results of this, look up Eric Cortina.

[Wm.Traynor]

Well!
You have all given me something to think about
You all realised that there is no real, hard and fast answer to my question and I did not know that.
To inform you properly now, I am exploring shoulder bump, with the objective of longer case life and reduced wear on the bolt lugs from chambering tight cases.
And I will be getting a Hornady lock n load gauge with comparitor, to set 0.002" clearance at the shoulder, for starters anyway. I think it is Eric Cortina's video, where it shows him very carefully adjusting his FLS die in tiny increments, to get the right bump. The expressions, "screwed down hard or just touching", do not apply here.
The kit won't be here til next week and I look forward to playing with it.
Thank you everyone

[Oldbloke]

WmT,
If you don't anneal fairly often you will get this "bounce back" effect. Has caused me no end of problems.

If your loading a lot by all means buy the gauge. But with a bit of fiddling you can get away with a pistol case. Your only trying to compare. I'm using a DIY my SIL made on lathe and it works fine.

I put this together, might help.

IMG_20241127_115546.jpg (135.25 KiB) Viewed 1311 times

[bladeracer]

Well!
You have all given me something to think about
You all realised that there is no real, hard and fast answer to my question and I did not know that.
To inform you properly now, I am exploring shoulder bump, with the objective of longer case life and reduced wear on the bolt lugs from chambering tight cases.
And I will be getting a Hornady lock n load gauge with comparitor, to set 0.002" clearance at the shoulder, for starters anyway. I think it is Eric Cortina's video, where it shows him very carefully adjusting his FLS die in tiny increments, to get the right bump. The expressions, "screwed down hard or just touching", do not apply here.
The kit won't be here til next week and I look forward to playing with it.
Thank you everyone

You can just use the rifle as your gauge. Try to chamber the fired brass in the rifle. If the bolt handle doesn't close with just the slightest pressure, adjust the die down a couple thousandths, run the case through it, try it in the chamber again. Repeat until the bolt closes, set the die in that position. The vernier merely allows you to measure the length of it, it really isn't necessary. You do have to be aware of anything else that might effect your bolt closing, like the brass being too long, or damaged. And make sure you run the loaded round through the rifle as well to ensure it's still right before you load a bunch of them. Always run your fired brass through the action to feel for any tight ones before you start re-sizing them. And it's not a bad idea to run your loaded ammo through it as well to ensure it's all good, you don't want to discover you have bad ammo in the field or at the range.

[Fester]

One of the best tricks in reloading was learning how to set the die up properly for minimal headspace using the rifle chamber as the gauge.

No excess headspace and no risk or problems.

I must have cut my trimming by about 70% as a side effect and cases should last near forever.
I have got batches of over 20 times fired now but I re-anneal after every 4 firings.

Just adjust roughly like the die instructions but go about 1/3 to half a turn further up to start.
The bolt shouldn't close on the FL resized case.
Turn down a touch, repeat until the bolt closes with a slight feel.
A tiny bit more should give that 1 or 2 thou HS if you like an easy close with no feel at all.

[Wm.Traynor]

WmT,
If you don't anneal fairly often you will get this "bounce back" effect. Has caused me no end of problems.

If your loading a lot by all means buy the gauge. But with a bit of fiddling you can get away with a pistol case. Your only trying to compare. I'm using a DIY my SIL made on lathe and it works fine.

I put this together, might help.

IMG_20241127_115546.jpg

Yes Oldbloke, I will be annealing, for the first time in my long life and thank you for your input.
BTW, I cobbled up a gizmo out of scrap wood and made a device that holds my hand drill, which is used to rotate cases

[Wm.Traynor]

Well!
You have all given me something to think about
You all realised that there is no real, hard and fast answer to my question and I did not know that.
To inform you properly now, I am exploring shoulder bump, with the objective of longer case life and reduced wear on the bolt lugs from chambering tight cases.
And I will be getting a Hornady lock n load gauge with comparitor, to set 0.002" clearance at the shoulder, for starters anyway. I think it is Eric Cortina's video, where it shows him very carefully adjusting his FLS die in tiny increments, to get the right bump. The expressions, "screwed down hard or just touching", do not apply here.
The kit won't be here til next week and I look forward to playing with it.
Thank you everyone

You can just use the rifle as your gauge. Try to chamber the fired brass in the rifle. If the bolt handle doesn't close with just the slightest pressure, adjust the die down a couple thousandths, run the case through it, try it in the chamber again. Repeat until the bolt closes, set the die in that position. The vernier merely allows you to measure the length of it, it really isn't necessary. You do have to be aware of anything else that might effect your bolt closing, like the brass being too long, or damaged. And make sure you run the loaded round through the rifle as well to ensure it's still right before you load a bunch of them. Always run your fired brass through the action to feel for any tight ones before you start re-sizing them. And it's not a bad idea to run your loaded ammo through it as well to ensure it's all good, you don't want to discover you have bad ammo in the field or at the range.

Thank you bladeracer, I am going to strip the bolt when the time comes.

[Wm.Traynor]

One of the best tricks in reloading was learning how to set the die up properly for minimal headspace using the rifle chamber as the gauge.

No excess headspace and no risk or problems.

I must have cut my trimming by about 70% as a side effect and cases should last near forever.
I have got batches of over 20 times fired now but I re-anneal after every 4 firings.

Just adjust roughly like the die instructions but go about 1/3 to half a turn further up to start.
The bolt shouldn't close on the FL resized case.
Turn down a touch, repeat until the bolt closes with a slight feel.
A tiny bit more should give that 1 or 2 thou HS if you like an easy close with no feel at all.

Thank you Fester.

[Blr243]

I would start with the die base roughly 2 mm above the top of the shell holder and wind the die body down until I feel the case shoulder contact the die shoulder . Then I just keep increasing the clockwise operation on the die body and keep checking the case in the rifle till I achieve the feel I’m seeking as I lower the bolt

[Wm.Traynor]

I would start with the die base roughly 2 mm above the top of the shell holder and wind the die body down until I feel the case shoulder contact the die shoulder . Then I just keep increasing the clockwise operation on the die body and keep checking the case in the rifle till I achieve the feel I’m seeking as I lower the bolt

That sounds logical

[Larry]

In order to use the bolt close method you need to remove the ejector and will probably need a set of competition shell holders as often you need shell holders that are smaller than normal. the method has been described in detail in another thread.

[bladeracer]

In order to use the bolt close method you need to remove the ejector and will probably need a set of competition shell holders as often you need shell holders that are smaller than normal. the method has been described in detail in another thread.

Only if it's a sprung ejector, don't go removing a fixed ejector.

[Wm.Traynor]

One of them is a M70 with a claw extractor and I don't know how much friction it imparts to the bolt-closing force. We'll see, I suspect. The other rifle is a sprung, bolt-face ejector and is no trouble to remove.

[Jorlcrin]

My Forster FL Die setup instructions are as follows:-

4.0 CASE SIZING PROCEDURE
1. Install the Die into any standard 7/8-14 thread reloading press or Forster Co-Ax® Reloading Press (028271) so that it makes contact with the shell holder when the ram is at its uppermost position.
2. Turn the Die another 1/8 to 1/4 turn against the shell holder to remove all play from the linkage system of the press.
3. Tighten the Cross Bolt Die Lock Ring (DIE-G-10) by using a 7/64 short arm hex key on the Die Lock Ring Screw (6-32 x 1/2").
4. Insert a case into the reloading press.
5. Size the case by actuating the reloading press. (Ensure the bottom of the Die makes complete contact with the shell holder.) This operation reduces the outside case diameter, removes the spent primer, and expands the case neck inside diameter. It also may stretch the case neck, so check the overall case length and trim, if necessary.
6. Remove the sized case from the Die.
7. The case is now ready for priming and powder charge.

[Obviously, this seems to be the starting point for this style of FL Sizing/Headspace adjust; You'd need to adjust the die to dial your headspacing in.]

[Oldbloke]

One of them is a M70 with a claw extractor and I don't know how much friction it imparts to the bolt-closing force. We'll see, I suspect. The other rifle is a sprung, bolt-face ejector and is no trouble to remove.

Very little.
I just remove the firing pin

[Fester]

I get by without removing the firing pin and just go by feel but if you remove it, there should be no resistance at all until the sized case gives a feel.
Never tried, but assume the bolt would just fall shut on slack factory ammo with max head space.

Like others, I started annealing after running into "springy brass" problems, tight bolt closures because the work-hardened case sprung back after FL resizing.

Same reason I stopped neck-sizing, I want all my ammo to feed and chamber reliably 100% of the time.
I don't have to chamber check my loaded ammo and no need to unless there is a problem.

Good lube like Imperial Sizing Wax is the other tip, I just wipe a cotton bud with a spray of One-shot around the inside of the neck near the mouth. A wipe with a clean cotton tip is enough to clean it out.

[Fester]

I get by without removing the firing pin and just go by feel but if you remove it, there should be no resistance at all until the sized case gives a feel.
Never tried, but assume the bolt would just fall shut on slack factory ammo with max head space.

Like others, I started annealing after running into "springy brass" problems, tight bolt closures because the work-hardened case sprung back after FL resizing.

Same reason I stopped neck-sizing, I want all my ammo to feed and chamber reliably 100% of the time.
I don't have to chamber check my loaded ammo and no need to unless there is a problem.

Good lube like Imperial Sizing Wax is the other tip, I just wipe a cotton bud with a spray of One-shot around the inside of the neck near the mouth. A wipe with a clean cotton tip is enough to clean it out.

[Oldbloke]

If I remove the fireing pin, from my Win M70 or any of my Marlin xl7's the bolt just drops under gravity.

This is one of the problems with the www. Full of BS. If you google they mostly talk about removing the extracted.
Just copyists. Havnt actually done it.

Just remove the fireing pin.

[Oldbloke]

WmT,
If you don't anneal fairly often you will get this "bounce back" effect. Has caused me no end of problems.

If your loading a lot by all means buy the gauge. But with a bit of fiddling you can get away with a pistol case. Your only trying to compare. I'm using a DIY my SIL made on lathe and it works fine.

I put this together, might help.

The attachment IMG_20241127_115546.jpg is no longer available

Yes Oldbloke, I will be annealing, for the first time in my long life and thank you for your input.
BTW, I cobbled up a gizmo out of scrap wood and made a device that holds my hand drill, which is used to rotate cases

Honestly you don't need a drill.
I just have a bit of brass that has been drilled on a lathe to hold a 223 case, got one for 30.06 too. Handle is ally tube about 8mm.(smaller the better)
Slowly rotate the shoulder in gas flame for 5-6 seconds till its blue/dull red, Job done. My first one was a bit of drilled down.
You get the idea.

[Wm.Traynor]

My Forster FL Die setup instructions are as follows:-

4.0 CASE SIZING PROCEDURE
1. Install the Die into any standard 7/8-14 thread reloading press or Forster Co-Ax® Reloading Press (028271) so that it makes contact with the shell holder when the ram is at its uppermost position.
2. Turn the Die another 1/8 to 1/4 turn against the shell holder to remove all play from the linkage system of the press.
3. Tighten the Cross Bolt Die Lock Ring (DIE-G-10) by using a 7/64 short arm hex key on the Die Lock Ring Screw (6-32 x 1/2").
4. Insert a case into the reloading press.
5. Size the case by actuating the reloading press. (Ensure the bottom of the Die makes complete contact with the shell holder.) This operation reduces the outside case diameter, removes the spent primer, and expands the case neck inside diameter. It also may stretch the case neck, so check the overall case length and trim, if necessary.
6. Remove the sized case from the Die.
7. The case is now ready for priming and powder charge.

[Obviously, this seems to be the starting point for this style of FL Sizing/Headspace adjust; You'd need to adjust the die to dial your headspacing in.]

I take from #2, that the key words are, "remove all play from the linkage system of the press".
That gets to the heart of my initial question

[Wm.Traynor]

One of them is a M70 with a claw extractor and I don't know how much friction it imparts to the bolt-closing force. We'll see, I suspect. The other rifle is a sprung, bolt-face ejector and is no trouble to remove.

Very little.
I just remove the firing pin

Thank you Oldbloke, I wasn't really looking forward to removing that thing

[Wm.Traynor]

WmT,
If you don't anneal fairly often you will get this "bounce back" effect. Has caused me no end of problems.

If your loading a lot by all means buy the gauge. But with a bit of fiddling you can get away with a pistol case. Your only trying to compare. I'm using a DIY my SIL made on lathe and it works fine.

I put this together, might help.

IMG_20241127_115546.jpg

Yes Oldbloke, I will be annealing, for the first time in my long life and thank you for your input.
BTW, I cobbled up a gizmo out of scrap wood and made a device that holds my hand drill, which is used to rotate cases

Honestly you don't need a drill.

I just have a bit of brass that has been drilled on a lathe to hold a 223 case, got one for 30.06 too. Handle is ally tube about 8mm.(smaller the better)
Slowly rotate the shoulder in gas flame for 5-6 seconds till its blue/dull red, Job done. My first one was a bit of drilled down.
You get the idea.

I do get the idea you clever rascal. That would simplify things markedly

[Oldbloke]

About as basic as if gets.
1/2" water pipe for 233 case with a handle jammed in one end.

IMG_20241128_205715.jpg (128.84 KiB) Viewed 939 times