Trail Boss Substitute for Subsonic Rifle Loads

[wanneroo]

I saw some talk on here previously about the lack of Trail Boss being available.

I happened to be reading Hodgdon's 2024 Annual Handloading Guide. I don't know if you all get that every year on the newsstand or at your gun stores but it is published in magazine format with about 100 pages of load data plus various articles on load development, typically with the new powders on the market or new cartridges but also they typically have some old favorites as well.

One thing they made mention was that they have been unable to get Trail Boss from ADI in Australia for several years now. So they have an article where Hodgdon worked up some substitute subsonic loads in a variety of rifle cartridges to replicate what Trail Boss would do. They had some data on lever gun cartridges like 44 Magnum, 38 Special and then some regular cartridges like 223, 308, 300 Blackout and a few others as well like 45 70.

Just to let you all know that is out there if you want a Trail Boss substitute.

[Larry]

You left out the all important bit of information. What was the substitute for Trailboss?

[Wyliecoyote]

Clays, Titegroup and Win 231, Red Dot, Blue Dot,700x, Bullseye, Unique, and 2400 for the likes of 44 Mag and 416 Ruger etc. There will be few ADI powders specified as this is in the US. I did see one load for 308 using 2206h and BM2 with 190 grain SubX pills at 1040 fps. Around 13 grains.

[bladeracer]

I saw some talk on here previously about the lack of Trail Boss being available.

I happened to be reading Hodgdon's 2024 Annual Handloading Guide. I don't know if you all get that every year on the newsstand or at your gun stores but it is published in magazine format with about 100 pages of load data plus various articles on load development, typically with the new powders on the market or new cartridges but also they typically have some old favorites as well.

One thing they made mention was that they have been unable to get Trail Boss from ADI in Australia for several years now. So they have an article where Hodgdon worked up some substitute subsonic loads in a variety of rifle cartridges to replicate what Trail Boss would do. They had some data on lever gun cartridges like 44 Magnum, 38 Special and then some regular cartridges like 223, 308, 300 Blackout and a few others as well like 45 70.

Just to let you all know that is out there if you want a Trail Boss substitute.

H4895 (AR2206H) or H4198 (AR2207) are our best choices, with AR2206H being more versatile I think. Replacing TB with other pistol powders isn't really viable here when there are no pistol powders.

[bladeracer]

Clays, Titegroup and Win 231, Red Dot, Blue Dot,700x, Bullseye, Unique, and 2400 for the likes of 44 Mag and 416 Ruger etc. There will be few ADI powders specified as this is in the US. I did see one load for 308 using 2206h and BM2 with 190 grain SubX pills at 1040 fps. Around 13 grains.

Clays is AS30N and not available.

[wanneroo]

You left out the all important bit of information. What was the substitute for Trailboss?

They used a surprisingly wide range of powders depending on the cartridge.

[wanneroo]

Clays, Titegroup and Win 231, Red Dot, Blue Dot,700x, Bullseye, Unique, and 2400 for the likes of 44 Mag and 416 Ruger etc. There will be few ADI powders specified as this is in the US. I did see one load for 308 using 2206h and BM2 with 190 grain SubX pills at 1040 fps. Around 13 grains.

Clays is AS30N and not available.

As I recall in there the president of Hodgdon made mention of Clays and it's unavailability. And as I recall they were pushing their new powder "High Gun" as a substitute for it and did an article on it. I don't follow the shotgun stuff so I glossed over it while reading.

[Jackaroo]

Can you buy this in pdf?

[Blr243]

If I sail a yacht from South America to Australia , and I have a secret compartment , and fill the keel as well , do I fill it with cocaine or Alliant ? Alliant I reckon because I don’t trust dealing with drug people

[Jackaroo]

If I sail a yacht from South America to Australia , and I have a secret compartment , and fill the keel as well , do I fill it with cocaine or Alliant ? Alliant I reckon because I don’t trust dealing with drug people

You don't to smuggle cocaine in NSW......it just washes up on the beaches!!!!

Now if it was Trailboss washing up..........I'd get over being a mal de mer sufferer.

[Wyliecoyote]

Clays, Titegroup and Win 231, Red Dot, Blue Dot,700x, Bullseye, Unique, and 2400 for the likes of 44 Mag and 416 Ruger etc. There will be few ADI powders specified as this is in the US. I did see one load for 308 using 2206h and BM2 with 190 grain SubX pills at 1040 fps. Around 13 grains.

Clays is AS30N and not available.

Some years ago Australia ceased production of Clays. Hodgdon in Canada took up production of it around the same time along with the CFE range of rifle powders which are all no longer imported into Australia. May not be available here but certainly is in the US.

[bladeracer]

If I sail a yacht from South America to Australia , and I have a secret compartment , and fill the keel as well , do I fill it with cocaine or Alliant ? Alliant I reckon because I don’t trust dealing with drug people

You don't to smuggle cocaine in NSW......it just washes up on the beaches!!!!

Now if it was Trailboss washing up..........I'd get over being a mal de mer sufferer.

Yes, sorry, I meant not available here.

[wanneroo]

Can you buy this in pdf?

Not that I know of but it can be purchased online. I saw some vendors on ebay would ship to Australia.

[Oldbloke]

The yanks had this worked out 40 years ago.

If you want to use fast powders for squibor subsonic loads there is plenty of data available. You just need to know where to look.

Download the 48th Ed of Lymans reloading manual. But be warned is 310mb.
And there are others.

http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals ... 20Manuals/

[Jackaroo]

https://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/sh ... es-Article

https://hoffos.wordpress.com/tag/30-30-lead-h4198/

[stihl88]

Luckily i bought myself a 1.5kg container of Unobtanium (Trailboss) before COVID hit hard, it's still bloody full too!

[Blr243]

Trailboss not in the shops but it’s still on or shelves at home. A full bottle here , half a bottle there. I hazzard a guess 1000 kg collectively throughout aus

[bigpete]

Luckily i bought myself a 1.5kg container of Unobtanium (Trailboss) before COVID hit hard, it's still bloody full too!

Same here. And I'm not letting go of it !

[mickb]

The yanks had this worked out 40 years ago.

If you want to use fast powders for squibor subsonic loads there is plenty of data available. You just need to know where to look.

Download the 48th Ed of Lymans reloading manual. But be warned is 310mb.
And there are others.

http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals ... 20Manuals/

correct a lot of post ww2 load manuals had a section dedicated to running reduced rifle loads. Eg guard loads in 30-06 for POW camps. used a few grains of bullseye, ball ammo, subsonic round.

I see small amounts of vihtavuori/vectan hitting our shores again- just picked up some N330 and N110, vihta equivalents to Unique and Win296 at about $150-200/lb. Boggles the mind why the major importers arent joining in. Huge profit margins, Euro makers are screaming for business, small companies can get it in, so why are we waiting years?

[Maxjon]

https://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?13425-Cast-Bullet-Loads-for-Military-Rifles-Article

https://hoffos.wordpress.com/tag/30-30-lead-h4198/

That article by CE Harris is great information for subsonic loads!! I have followed that information, and its served me well! Even drilling the flasholes out works wonders.
Trailboss is an option, but its not the only option. I've had better results with AR2205 or H4227, and I've never fillers, never felt the need to.

Subsonic cast bullets in Milsurp rifles is the most fun you can have with a Milsurp!

[Blr243]

I agree an c e Harris. Even if we can’t get tb till late 2025 I have enough to get me thru till then

[Bugman]

Luckily I have a fair bit of TB and use it in 44mag. 200grn lead round nose with 6grns of TB. Pretty accurate out to 100m for Metallic Sil.

[Faedy]

Still got 2kg myself, so all happy here still.
I managed to pick up the last tubs Roy Alexanders in Perth had the very day our clown Premier shut down the gun shops during Covid...
Who woulda guessed how much life would change from there on...

[Maxjon]

I still have 1kg of TB myself but I don't believe its the best subsonic powder. I've used lots of pistol and shotgun powders in lots of different 30 caliber cases. AP50, AP70 and AR2205 (Rifle/Pistol) delivered very good accuracy. But It looks like they are no more. Looks like I will starting over with the APS range of powders. I'm keen to try some APS950.

[bigpete]

Luckily I still have a full tub of trailboss....

[Wyliecoyote]

ADI site is now listing sub loads for a few cartridges with powders outside of TB, mainly with 2206H.

190 GR. Hornady SUB-X AR2206H (S).308 2.690" Starting---Maximum 13.3 grain 1044 fps16600 psi.

Problem is that we are unlikely to see 2206H for a long time if ever.

[bladeracer]

I still have 1kg of TB myself but I don't believe its the best subsonic powder. I've used lots of pistol and shotgun powders in lots of different 30 caliber cases. AP50, AP70 and AR2205 (Rifle/Pistol) delivered very good accuracy. But It looks like they are no more. Looks like I will starting over with the APS range of powders. I'm keen to try some APS950.

Why do you feel TB isn't the best for subs? I love the stuff, and can't think of any cartridge at all that it doesn't work in. And it is incredibly safe to use. But it does have a velocity limit, there comes a point in some cartridges where adding more powder doesn't gain any more velocity. Something like 300BLK with a 230gn bullet struggles to get up to high subsonic on TB.

I haven't heard of any issues with APS950 or APS650 so far, hopefully they finally have a finished product. Keep us apprised of your results when you do try the new powders.

[mchughcb]

ADI site is now listing sub loads for a few cartridges with powders outside of TB, mainly with 2206H.

190 GR. Hornady SUB-X AR2206H (S).308 2.690" Starting---Maximum 13.3 grain 1044 fps16600 psi.

Problem is that we are unlikely to see 2206H for a long time if ever.

On their site they list that 2206H and Trailboss will be available by 2025.

Ole pensioners will be squealing when they get no bites on $1k for a tub of trailboss.

[wanneroo]

I recall a mention recently, maybe in Handloader magazine that Trail Boss is coming back next year.

[bladeracer]

I recall a mention recently, maybe in Handloader magazine that Trail Boss is coming back next year.

ADI said some months ago that have started testing the new formula, hopefully won't be too far away.