.303-25

[bladeracer]

I fired 24rds today and the scope mount doesn't appear to be moving. I'm still not confident in it but it seems to be holding in place. I was going to try the no-drill Arctic Fox mount but I loaned it to a mate to try on his .303-25 and haven't gotten it back yet.

I increased the charge to 30gn of AR2206H behind four bullets, Bruce's 87gn (2.650"), Speer's 87gn Hotcore (2.750"), and Hornady's 110gn FTX (2.900") and 117gn RNSP (2.840"), and seated them a little deeper to increase pressure. I can't remove the bolt with the scope installed so boresighting consisted of trying to generally point the rifle at a fence post and seeing how far off the scope was It got me on paper though, and I gave it a rough zero with Bertram's 87gn, then went back to 50m and rested off the back of the ute to shoot through the chronograph. I fired four 5rd groups to get velocities. All four groups gave me a wide flier. The 117gn RN was particularly good giving me four into 22mm, and the very long boat-tailed-polymer-tipped FTX did stabilise just fine. The brass was a mix of once-fired and brand new so I didn't expect precision groups, I just wanted to fireform some brass and get some velocity data. Velocity averages were 2396fps for Bruce's, 2306fps for the Speer, 2321fps for the 117gn RN, and 2394fps for the 110gn FTX. I expected the RN to be slower as it's 35% heavier than the 87's, and it doesn't go very deep into the case. The FTX is 25% heavier but does go deep into the case so pressure would be higher. The 87's were a pain in the magazine as usual but the longer/fatter 110gn and 117gn were better.

I haven't measured up the brass yet but I'm sure these are fairly light loads. I'll bump them up a little hotter and load more of all four for some proper testing for accuracy. Right now it's zeroed 45mm high at 50m with the 117gn RN, giving it a 175m zero, just in case anything comes up.

[bigrich]

I fired 24rds today and the scope mount doesn't appear to be moving. I'm still not confident in it but it seems to be holding in place. I was going to try the no-drill Arctic Fox mount but I loaned it to a mate to try on his .303-25 and haven't gotten it back yet.

I increased the charge to 30gn of AR2206H behind four bullets, Bruce's 87gn (2.650"), Speer's 87gn Hotcore (2.750"), and Hornady's 110gn FTX (2.900") and 117gn RNSP (2.840"), and seated them a little deeper to increase pressure. I can't remove the bolt with the scope installed so boresighting consisted of trying to generally point the rifle at a fence post and seeing how far off the scope was It got me on paper though, and I gave it a rough zero with Bertram's 87gn, then went back to 50m and rested off the back of the ute to shoot through the chronograph. I fired four 5rd groups to get velocities. All four groups gave me a wide flier. The 117gn RN was particularly good giving me four into 22mm, and the very long boat-tailed-polymer-tipped FTX did stabilise just fine. The brass was a mix of once-fired and brand new so I didn't expect precision groups, I just wanted to fireform some brass and get some velocity data. Velocity averages were 2396fps for Bruce's, 2306fps for the Speer, 2321fps for the 117gn RN, and 2394fps for the 110gn FTX. I expected the RN to be slower as it's 35% heavier than the 87's, and it doesn't go very deep into the case. The FTX is 25% heavier but does go deep into the case so pressure would be higher. The 87's were a pain in the magazine as usual but the longer/fatter 110gn and 117gn were better.

I haven't measured up the brass yet but I'm sure these are fairly light loads. I'll bump them up a little hotter and load more of all four for some proper testing for accuracy. Right now it's zeroed 45mm high at 50m with the 117gn RN, giving it a 175m zero, just in case anything comes up.

sounds like your off to a good start blade . i would suggest 30gn of 2206h is a very mild load given the difference in case capacity between my 250 savage and your 30' 25 . accuracy in my 250 is around 34.5gn of 2206h with nosler 85bt's , adi load data gives pressure at less than 44 000cup max in deference to old savage 99 lever guns . think as you creep up you'll probably find a accuracy node around 33.5- 34.5 gn before pressure creeps up in your rear locker for the 87 speers . i think the 110 ftx will be a good bullet as i believe it's designed for the 25-35win , and you should be able to push it harder out of your 303-25 . possibly up to 500fps faster according to my adi load data . performance on game could be interesting

[bladeracer]

sounds like your off to a good start blade . i would suggest 30gn of 2206h is a very mild load given the difference in case capacity between my 250 savage and your 30' 25 . accuracy in my 250 is around 34.5gn of 2206h with nosler 85bt's , adi load data gives pressure at less than 44 000cup max in deference to old savage 99 lever guns . think as you creep up you'll probably find a accuracy node around 33.5- 34.5 gn before pressure creeps up in your rear locker for the 87 speers . i think the 110 ftx will be a good bullet as i believe it's designed for the 25-35win , and you should be able to push it harder out of your 303-25 . possibly up to 500fps faster according to my adi load data . performance on game could be interesting

I'm figuring max loads are likely around 34gn for the 87's at around 2700fps, and 32gn for the 117's at around 2550fps. I can seat the 110's out further than they are now (the SMLE mag is good for 3.050") so they might max at 34gn perhaps, and make good velocity. Normally I would run up the loads until I see pressure signs to determine where the max is, but that would just cost me brass in this one. I don't want to get anywhere near brass-eating pressures and we don't need 300m capability out of the rifle anyway.

The 117gn RN surprised me by being so accurate, the 110gn FTX surprised me by putting circular holes in the paper The plan is to load the 87's and the 110gn FTX from 31.0gn to 33.0gn in .5gn increments, keeping the same COAL for the 87's, but stretching the FTX to 3.050". And the 117gn RN is already looking good so I'll load those from 30.0gn to 32.0gn. Ten rounds of each charge to give me two non-consecutive 5rd groups for testing.

We started AI on the 28th though and this month is looking a bit busy.

[bigrich]

sounds like your off to a good start blade . i would suggest 30gn of 2206h is a very mild load given the difference in case capacity between my 250 savage and your 30' 25 . accuracy in my 250 is around 34.5gn of 2206h with nosler 85bt's , adi load data gives pressure at less than 44 000cup max in deference to old savage 99 lever guns . think as you creep up you'll probably find a accuracy node around 33.5- 34.5 gn before pressure creeps up in your rear locker for the 87 speers . i think the 110 ftx will be a good bullet as i believe it's designed for the 25-35win , and you should be able to push it harder out of your 303-25 . possibly up to 500fps faster according to my adi load data . performance on game could be interesting

I'm figuring max loads are likely around 34gn for the 87's at around 2700fps, and 32gn for the 117's at around 2550fps. I can seat the 110's out further than they are now (the SMLE mag is good for 3.050") so they might max at 34gn perhaps, and make good velocity. Normally I would run up the loads until I see pressure signs to determine where the max is, but that would just cost me brass in this one. I don't want to get anywhere near brass-eating pressures and we don't need 300m capability out of the rifle anyway.

The 117gn RN surprised me by being so accurate, the 110gn FTX surprised me by putting circular holes in the paper The plan is to load the 87's and the 110gn FTX from 31.0gn to 33.0gn in .5gn increments, keeping the same COAL for the 87's, but stretching the FTX to 3.050". And the 117gn RN is already looking good so I'll load those from 30.0gn to 32.0gn. Ten rounds of each charge to give me two non-consecutive 5rd groups for testing.

We started AI on the 28th though and this month is looking a bit busy.

i would think more speed will help the ftx along with increased stability at distance

[mickb]

Interesting thread, always liked the idea of the old 303-25 but never owned one.

[bladeracer]

Interesting thread, always liked the idea of the old 303-25 but never owned one.

I've never owned a .25-cal so I'm finding it interesting as well
It's not something I would recommend though, their are easier ways to get into .25-cal, .25-06 for example. But it adds another flavour to the SMLE and it retains the very distinctive Lee Enfield noise as you feed a round from the cavernous magazine into the chamber, that always causes a smile. A mate has inherited a very similar rifle and wants me to make some ammo for him too.

This test was very informal as I didn't want to completely mess up my mate's day out here shooting. I just wanted velocity averages and to see if the heavier bullets stabilised. I'll do the next testing on my own and take my time over it, allowing the rifle to cool properly throughout.

I suspect the two-piece stock is going to cause the usual accuracy issues. For testing I'll support the rifle over a bag under the mag rather than the forend.

The magazine issue with the smaller bullets seems to be fixed with the longer and fatter bullets, though I still don't know whether there might be a modification to the magazine that addressed this back in the day. With the 87gn bullets, if you open the bolt and lay the rifle down to climb a fence or something, the odds are all your ammo is going to eject itself. This would've been very annoying and I can't believe it would've been so popular with this happening.

Despite the Monte Carlo comb I really don't find it comfortable or "natural" to get my eye behind the scope. I think it'll be much nicer to shoot with the Williams aperture, but I'll leave the scope on for now while I'm working out loads. The trigger is horrible, noticeably worse than any of my .303's, so I think it'll shoot very poorly offhand.

I am having trouble seating the bullets concentrically, almost as if the case neck is not supported in the seating die. I'm just starting the bullet, then pulling the round out, straightening the bullet manually, seating it a bit more, pulling it out to check and adjust, and so on, very annoying. I don't know if this is a .25-cal issue, a .303-25 issue, an issue with the Lee die, or just something I'm doing wrong, but I haven't encountered it in any other cartridge.

[bigrich]

If you want a really accurate 303-25 that can handle pressure and get the most out of it a p14 is the go. You see sporter p14’s come up for sale occasionally

[bladeracer]

If you want a really accurate 303-25 that can handle pressure and get the most out of it a p14 is the go. You see sporter p14’s come up for sale occasionally

Definitely, it's a much better design than the SMLE.

[wrenchman]

I do enjoy this topic and thanks for posting

[Oldbloke]

Blade, how did this project end?

[Maxjon]

Yep, Simplex have definitely closed up shop.

Screenshot_20240922-123026_Samsung Internet.jpg

Interesting...Im a bit reluctant to buy anything from CBE/Simplex after the last triple cavity CBE mold i bought was crap. 3 different bullets visually, and by weight. The current owners may be out of their depth.

[Wapiti]

[
I am having trouble seating the bullets concentrically, almost as if the case neck is not supported in the seating die. I'm just starting the bullet, then pulling the round out, straightening the bullet manually, seating it a bit more, pulling it out to check and adjust, and so on, very annoying. I don't know if this is a .25-cal issue, a .303-25 issue, an issue with the Lee die, or just something I'm doing wrong, but I haven't encountered it in any other cartridge.

Just reading this older thread and looking for some more of BR's great experience and advice and came across this.

I bet it most certainly is the Lee dies, have a look at a previous thread of mine earlier this year about how cheap comes with a caveat.
Cheap design, and cheap manufacturing.
There is no free lunch.

Now, the bottom end of the die brands/types that I will take now are the Redding Deluxe die sets (with the neck sizing die as well), and anything I want precision for, I grit my teeth and buy the Redding Competition die sets with the spring-loaded actual chambers that ensure that the case meets the seating bullet exactly in straightline fashion.
Yes, I know they are expensive, but chasing your tail with crooked ammo and expecting the best results just does not mix.

Lee dies are innovative, in that they allow anyone to make handloads cheaply. But do not expect the same precision result with dies where their design allows seating to be at a different angle/runout every cartridge you load. If you are chasing the best performance from the rifle and load, you will not get it from these dies.

In the thread on the Lee dies, some of the reasons for this are clearly shown, as is a comparison with other brand dies and why this is so.

[Maxjon]

[
I am having trouble seating the bullets concentrically, almost as if the case neck is not supported in the seating die. I'm just starting the bullet, then pulling the round out, straightening the bullet manually, seating it a bit more, pulling it out to check and adjust, and so on, very annoying. I don't know if this is a .25-cal issue, a .303-25 issue, an issue with the Lee die, or just something I'm doing wrong, but I haven't encountered it in any other cartridge.

Just reading this older thread and looking for some more of BR's great experience and advice and came across this.

I bet it most certainly is the Lee dies, have a look at a previous thread of mine earlier this year about how cheap comes with a caveat.
Cheap design, and cheap manufacturing.
There is no free lunch.

Now, the bottom end of the die brands/types that I will take now are the Redding Deluxe die sets (with the neck sizing die as well), and anything I want precision for, I grit my teeth and buy the Redding Competition die sets with the spring-loaded actual chambers that ensure that the case meets the seating bullet exactly in straightline fashion.
Yes, I know they are expensive, but chasing your tail with crooked ammo and expecting the best results just does not mix.

Lee dies are innovative, in that they allow anyone to make handloads cheaply. But do not expect the same precision result with dies where their design allows seating to be at a different angle/runout every cartridge you load. If you are chasing the best performance from the rifle and load, you will not get it from these dies.

In the thread on the Lee dies, some of the reasons for this are clearly shown, as is a comparison with other brand dies and why this is so.

Ahh yes..."buy once, cry once"....Lee dies are hit and miss. Ive actually found the Hornady seating die very good for seating concentricity. It has a floating seater, that self locates, seems to wirk. With other dies, i sometimes rotate the case between 2 or 3 steps of seating the bullet all the way home. Simply run your index finger along the side of the case, rotates it. OCD maybe....

[Butch DDG41]

I have loaded quite a bit of .303. The lee seating die is hit and miss. I got the set with the 'micro' adjustment and it looks cheap but does work, but as others have noted it seats them crooked too often for accurate, consistent ammo. I got a hornady seater and it's much better but with compressed loads they can still seat off kilter. Having to raise the ram so many times to seat incrementally is wearing out my drinking elbow...

[Wapiti]

Some people handload to save money, so Lee dies allow the gear set-up to cost as little as possible.
Their deluxe die set, which has the crimp die and the collet neck sizer that swages the cases against the fixed post, sizes cases lovely and straight, without lube.

then it all goes to pot with the hideous seating die, with the wobbly floating stem that tilts sideways if there is ANY circumferential influence. Wrecks all the hard work previously spent.

It's when handloaders morph into people who want the best out of their handloads, better than factory stuff, that they must decide whether they want the gear that does that or not.
Consistency in your bedding, shooting style, secure scope mounts, great solid benchrest for testing - all pointless if your bullets point in all directions.
I just don't get it, how people spend up big, except when it comes to dies. I suppose they just trust the glossy adverts.

[Butch DDG41]

Some people handload to save money, so Lee dies allow the gear set-up to cost as little as possible.
Their deluxe die set, which has the crimp die and the collet neck sizer that swages the cases against the fixed post, sizes cases lovely and straight, without lube.

then it all goes to pot with the hideous seating die, with the wobbly floating stem that tilts sideways if there is ANY circumferential influence. Wrecks all the hard work previously spent.

It's when handloaders morph into people who want the best out of their handloads, better than factory stuff, that they must decide whether they want the gear that does that or not.
Consistency in your bedding, shooting style, secure scope mounts, great solid benchrest for testing - all pointless if your bullets point in all directions.
I just don't get it, how people spend up big, except when it comes to dies. I suppose they just trust the glossy adverts.

I have learned the hard way with lee dies. As you say, they size just fine but seat horribly.