454 casull Rossi 92

[mickb]

yeah mate, just talked to the LGS and there are rumours that suppliers here are trying to get Hodgon coming in again. The other issue is no one can move powder around easilt any more. The government tightened a bunch if laws, also so called industry groups , the trucking companies jumped on the bandwagon. Noia trading still has Alliant powders in their vault they cant get to North QLD.

[mickb]

Well settled on what I think is a good bullet to start testing.

300 XTP.

Shows nose flattening/expansion as low as 950fps impact, maybe to 55-60cal
Holds together( but gets pretty flat, like over an inch expansion) up to 1800fps impact.

Thats a very decent expansion envelope. Covers carbine 45 colt loads to full house 454 casull. If it shoots okay I wont bother testing many others.

The 300XTP-MAG bullet, a different bullet with reinforced jacket that actually wraps around into the hollowpoint itself, is just too hard, really needs 460S&W speeds to work reliably or it pencils through small game. The yanks love their hard ass bullets.

[bigrich]

Well settled on what I think is a good bullet to start testing.

300 XTP.

Shows nose flattening/expansion as low as 950fps impact, maybe to 55-60cal
Holds together( but gets pretty flat, like over an inch expansion) up to 1800fps impact.

Thats a very decent expansion envelope. Covers carbine 45 colt loads to full house 454 casull. If it shoots okay I wont bother testing many others.

The 300XTP-MAG bullet, a different bullet with reinforced jacket that actually wraps around into the hollowpoint itself, is just too hard, really needs 460S&W speeds to work reliably or it pencils through small game. The yanks love their hard ass bullets.

i reckon the 300xtp at medium loads will be a excellent choice mate . i've used hornady 357 180gn xtp's out of a 358 win at about 2400fps and it was devasting on lighter game up to about 50kg . too much speed for heavier game with that load. think i was using BM2

[mickb]

Yeah thats high speed for those projectiles mate. Its a tough bullet in 357 and even 357 maximum but 2400 would make things graphic ;D

[mickb]

So some more titbits of info.

Heaviest load I can find online and I wont post the powder load itself but its by a reputable bullet maker in the US

290 grain hardcast bullet, just under 2200fps. 3100ftlbs.

Good heavens, same power as fullhouse 444marlin.

[mickb]

Just posting someone elses result for the 300XTP mag. These bullets are too hard for normal game I reckon.1444fps impact, failed to expand. Thats a very hard bullet in pistol calibres.Even with the casulls starting speed these will be pencilling through a lot of game at 100 yards. Still kill obviously but a bit meh if some bloke with a 44mag can drop game faster.

[mickb]

Better bullet is the 300XTP regular version. 2000fps impact below, she flattened a lot, much like a 240XTP at the same speed, but doesnt fragment, thats still a killer.

[Billo]

No flies on some of those loads mickb, as you've said pretty much 45/70 type power in a short n handy carbine. Red dot a muzzle brake so the wood work doesn't turn into kindling

[mickb]

yeah Billo, . Im going to stay away from the real hot stuff for that reason. 1900fps with the 300XTP's and maybe Lee 300( if i can be arsed re setting up to cast again) will do me. Thats an honest 300fps or roughly 100 yard headstart on my 44 mag.

The 45-70 leaves the 454 casull behind as the bullets get heavier. Cant compete against that available case volume. The margin is less with the 444 as it doesnt have a lot of ultraheavy bullets itself anway.

My plan of 1900/300 is still about 150-200fps under full power so hopefully less chance of shaking the magazine and stock off it.

[Valdash]

Yeah, the later models are definitely beefier. The reinforced stock is a nice touch too.

[mickb]

Well it arrived, is in really good nick. The previous owner was a backyard operator gunsmith who turned 80 and is getting out of the game. His son said he reckons about 40 shots went through it since it was bought 10 years ago. My dies arrived, also plenty of 300XTP projectiles so I will get loading and do some velocity testing Wednesday after next. I also spent a pretty penny internationally ordering a redding profile crimp die the yanks recommended. Turns out its for heavy loads in revolvers where the projectile backs out of the case due to recoil and binds the cylinder up from cycling. Apparently unecessary for a lever action, could have stuck with the regular factory crimp die. Nvm. Now just to add one of Danger Noodles rossi 92 pic rails and put a red dot on it

[Billo]

Happy days mickb, grab a slip on pachmayr recoil pad to tame things, it's what I do on my 500

[Blr243]

And we look fwd to a pic of its first boar

[jakethompson]

Yeah mate, that’s a great pickup, especially given how rare these 454s are. The beefed-up mag tube and threaded receiver definitely add strength, but as others have said, it’s still a marginal design for full-tilt 454 loads. If you keep it in the 50-55k PSI range, it should hold up fine.

I’ve seen a few discussions on these over at Paco Kelly’s forum—seems like the general consensus is they’re solid if you don’t push them too hard. Some minor loctite on screws wouldn’t be a bad idea either, given how these can shake things loose.

[Obie73]

Yes I keep reading about the profile crimp die or the factory crimp die being best for lever action rounds, so that the bullet isn't pushed into the brass when loaded into the tubular magazine with a strong spring.

I reload for a 357 model 1873 and so far have just been using the standard roll crimp that my Hornady seating die does. With care you can get a fairly solid crimp that firmly rolls into the cannelure on Hornady XTPs. As far as I can see that should firmly hold the projectile and so far there only seems to be a problem with it if I use nickel plated brass as sometimes the nickel can flake off where the crimp was.

But every now and then I wonder if I should try a different type of crimp, like the 'factory crimp' die from Lee I think it is.

Is the standard roll crimp like you get with the Hornady die perfectly fine for what I need would you say? Thanks for any advice.

[mickb]

Yeah mate, that’s a great pickup, especially given how rare these 454s are. The beefed-up mag tube and threaded receiver definitely add strength, but as others have said, it’s still a marginal design for full-tilt 454 loads. If you keep it in the 50-55k PSI range, it should hold up fine.

I’ve seen a few discussions on these over at Paco Kelly’s forum—seems like the general consensus is they’re solid if you don’t push them too hard. Some minor loctite on screws wouldn’t be a bad idea either, given how these can shake things loose.

Most the fellas at pacos are older or retired blokes who therefore got the first batches of the 454 rossis in the 2000's when they were younger., and the first batches had problems. On castboolits, highroad and ruger forums with the younger crowd and a lot running full house in the upgraded guns. Also need to be careful what we call marginal in the same sentence as strength. Fittings sure but the action itself has never let go, that I know of. It's strong enough for 65k or they would have been blowing up and off the market 20 years ago.

[Blr243]

Obie. Personally I wouldn’t bother if what u are already doing works fine. I struggle to seat and crimp in one process. That’s why I use the Lee FCD as a final step after Seating with a standard seating die And it’s a cheap die to buy. Easy to adjust.

[Splitnecks01]

Hi, I don’t have much to add but I do own an R 92 in 454 casull I got it from Cleaver’s a long time ago can’t quite remember
I have had it restocked with a nice piece of walnut
With a high comb I had a rail put forward of the receiver and mounted the red dot on it
The gunsmith drilled the receiver and used the rear site dovetail and it has worked well
When I got the rifle, I got two boxes of Hornady 300 grain XPT mag and they went 2050 fps
With ar 2205 powder and the same bullet I couldn’t get much over 1900 fps it starts to imprint or squash the base of the case and that’s where I stopped
I have had absolutely no trouble with that rifle. I would’ve put somewhere between 800 and 1000 rounds of full pressure loads through the action and it still locks up tight.
I don’t know how or what they did to that 92 action in Brazil but in my opinion it can definitely handle the psi of the casull
I have hunted a lot with that rifle, mainly pigs
And also took it to Africa and shot some warthogs
It’s not the most accurate rifle, but I can hold a full mag tube in a five or 6 inch circle at 100 m
At the moment I have a two Power Tesco pistol scope on it with long eye relief. It’s not perfect and I haven’t hunted with it yet but I think i will be able to leave both eyes open on running targets
I have never had anything come loose or give any trouble at all it is my favourite pig gun
That’s just my experience
And it has been a good one

[Cape_Yorkee]

Not to sabotage this thread at all, but any personal reviews on any Citadel 44 Magnums or Casulls? The Citadel Levatac series look awesome, just worried the quality isn't there.

[Wapiti]

How is the Casull cartridge go on pigs? How different in performance is it to the .44 magnum?

I ask because I was visiting another farmer down the road and he has a farm handgun and it was a large 5-shot stainless revolver in 454 Casull. It looked to gave a 10" barrel, with a large heavy barrel . He dumped a handful of Winchester factory loads in my hand and I shot those at a target set-up he had. It was very accurate, but then again I carry very short handguns nearly every day when up the back by myself, so can shoot them in practical conditions.
The thing was a joy to shoot, the recoil was very mild to me. I realise that the pistol was a heavy lump, in fact almost useless to carry around without dragging your duds down off your arse. Maybe not mild recoil to the average bloke but compared to my 5-1/2" Super Blackhawk I carry when conditions suit it, it's a very mild cartridge in a suitable set up. My very compact 44 mag is a very nasty thing to fire and very vicious to shoot.

Does all the hype of this Casull cartridge and it's relative rarity getting ammo here correlate to a much more effective round? In practical situations I mean, in the bush on stuff we have to shoot?

[Splitnecks01]

I have hunted pigs with both calibres
The 454 casull can launch heavier projectiles at higher velocity so from a ballistics point of view it has a lot More energy at the muzzle And depending where you get your information more than double ft/lbs of energy at 100m than the 44mag
Also the casull shoots a little bit flatter
So so on paper the casull looks like the clear winner
But in reality both are short range calibers
When I was hunting pigs with my 44mag (also a r92 Which I foolishly sold)
Quite often a 240 grain bullet had no trouble zipping straight through a pig and pulled them up pretty quick
I have also recovered 44 mag projectiles from large pigs that showed Good expansion and a big wound channel
So inside 100 m how much do you really need?
I have only ever recovered one 300 grain bullet from a pig shot with a 454 casull
My son shot a large sow running directly away from him at close range maybe 30 m
In through the hindquarters And after A lot of digging, we found the projectile under the butt of the ear
I made a similar shot in Africa on a warthog and the bullet went straight through in the arse and out the chest
I can remember the guys that cleaned and butchered that animal Asking to see the rifle And a loaded round
I don’t think they had ever seen a lever action
Or such a short fat little cartridge do so much damage lol
The biggest problem with the 454 Is not its performance It’s That feeding one is very expensive
Little choice in VERY Expensive factory ammunition compared to the 44Mag
Brass can sometimes be hard to get and also expensive compared to the 44 Mag
Add to that Fired cases are easily lost When flicking them out of a Rossi
But all that aside It is still my favourite leaver action The custom stock I had made and the rail forward of the receiver For the scope Made it comfortable to shoot and Easy to shoot well

One side note on reloading the 454 casull
I had problems with cases separating about a third of the way up from the rim The problem turned out to be I was full length resizing with a carbon die (Lyman) Which basically pulls the full length of the case down to one size from top to bottom doing that and the fact that my particular rifle Has a bit of an oversize chamber ment that the brass had to stretch a lot to fill the size of the chamber and after a few firings I started to get a lot of separations
Now I only size just pass the seating depth of the bullet and I have had no further problems

As to shooting a 454 in a handgun, I have only fired one At a metallic silhouette range
A long time ago
I found the recoil of that Freedom arms revolver
Fairly brutal
I shot it standing up and laying down in the Creedmoor position and didn’t enjoy either that much lol
all good fun but

[Wapiti]

Thanks for the info mate.
For a flash I thought I was undergunned in handguns. But there's nothing up close I can hit with a 5-1/2" 44 mag revolver that isn't completely busted.
And it doesn't drag my duds off my @rse like a gangsta.

[Splitnecks01]

Hi wapiti
I’m only new hear where are you located
Do you have things that are dangerous that you need to carry a handgun wile out and about ??
As far as I’m aware in Australia in the state I live in it is impossible to get a license to possess a handgun on a farm for any reason
I am a rural farm worker and wish it was different
lol

[bradley33]

How is the Casull cartridge go on pigs? How different in performance is it to the .44 magnum?

I ask because I was visiting another farmer down the road and he has a farm handgun and it was a large 5-shot stainless revolver in 454 Casull. It looked to gave a 10" barrel, with a large heavy barrel . He dumped a handful of Winchester factory loads in my hand and I shot those at a target set-up he had. It was very accurate, but then again I carry very short handguns nearly every day when up the back by myself, so can shoot them in practical conditions.
The thing was a joy to shoot, the recoil was very mild to me. I realise that the pistol was a heavy lump, in fact almost useless to carry around without dragging your duds down off your arse. Maybe not mild recoil to the average bloke but compared to my 5-1/2" Super Blackhawk I carry when conditions suit it, it's a very mild cartridge in a suitable set up. My very compact 44 mag is a very nasty thing to fire and very vicious to shoot.

Does all the hype of this Casull cartridge and it's relative rarity getting ammo here correlate to a much more effective round? In practical situations I mean, in the bush on stuff we have to shoot?

Depends what you are shooting I guess. The 454 numbers are same as the 444 marlin by the looks, 2300 with a 240 or 2000 with a 300 like the fella above said. its different class from a 44mag. I reckon if its just pigs and deers under 100 yards, no reason to trade in a 44 but if a fella wants to go further or maybe hit scrub bulls with hardcast the 444/454 power level makes sense.